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 Post subject: MVC Expansion
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:49 pm 

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Does the MVC see any value in expanding ? Many of the Div I conferences are a tad reluctant to spread their haul from the BB tourney over more conference members (essentially diluting it). IF new members bring about the possibility of more revenue (via multiple bids) then they become more attractive as expansion candidates....


MVC has move up in status among the basketball schools were they are probally the best of the non BCS conferences in hoops. They have their championship game on CBS now. I dont think they are going to add a Western Illinois or Youngstown State. I think if the MVC expands look for them or to try for a Xavier or Dayton or even SLU type.


But are there any midwestern private schools that WANT to join the MVC?


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 Post subject: MVC Expansion
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:38 pm 
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The A10 is superior conference to the MVC.Dayton and Xavier know that.


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 Post subject: MVC Expansion
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 1:10 am 
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The A10 is superior conference to the MVC.Dayton and Xavier know that.


Yeah right.


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 Post subject: MVC Expansion
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:01 am 
The MVC Tournament Championship Game ("Arch Madness"), which has "traditionally" been held on the Monday preceding "Selection Sunday" is now going to be aired on CBS? Really? No, really?

As for Butler and Saint Louis having a "been there, done that" relationship with the MVC, consider the departure and return of the following programs: Bradley, Creighton, and Drake...


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 Post subject: MVC Expansion
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:17 am 
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The MVC Tournament Championship Game ("Arch Madness"), which has "traditionally" been held on the Monday preceding "Selection Sunday" is now going to be aired on CBS? Really? No, really?


http://www.mvc-sports.com/webapps/release?id=1187


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 Post subject: MVC Expansion
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 1:13 pm 
Okay, the MVC Championship Game is on CBS, but it will still be played a week before "Selection Sunday"...the revised format will also probably facilitate higher attendance figures...sounds like a "win-win" for the MVC...


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 Post subject: MVC Expansion
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:13 pm 
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I've noticed a few things about the MVC members (Correct me if I'm wrong)

1.Every MVC member is the only show in town, meaning none of the basketball schools face local D1 competition. When you are talking MVC expansion candidates you should be taking this into consideration. Its part of the reason why you have UNI and Missouri State in the conference and not Illinois-Chi.

2.The MVC is big on rivalries. Bradley/Illinois State/Southern Illinois, Northern Iowa/Drake, Creighton/Wichita State/Missouri State, Indiana State/Evansville. If you are going to expand the MVC, who ever comes in has to be a good fit to that rivalry core.

3.The MVC footprint is primarily great plains/lower Midwestern. I don't see the MVC expanding toward the great lakes or the deep south.

4.The MVC has a lot of momentum going for it right now and they don't want to dilute the basketball revenue unless there is a compelling reason. In the early 90's the MVC wasn't very strong and was desperate to bring some schools in. Today its a 2 bid conference with a perfect 10 team lineup boosting rivalries.

The problem WKU faces in getting into the MVC is the issue with moving up to Division 1-A in football and they don't really have a rival to bring with. Maybe MTSU would qualify as that rival, but they have D1A football.

NDSU and SDSU aren't bad choices for the MVC as they would be expanding into new untapped Division 1 basketball markets. Obviously the problem with the Dakota schools is they waited way too long before moving up to D1 and have lost out on opportunities to find a better conference.

Saint Louis University has a valuable market that may one day find itself in the Big East and to its benefit has little instate Division 1 competition. The best place for SLU is the A-10 right now which has upgraded itself during the realignment with two good basketball schools in SLU and Charlotte. Only if desperate would they try and hook up with the mid major/small market MVC.


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 Post subject: MVC Expansion
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:44 pm 
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Most of the members of the MVC are not thought out based on being "no competition" as a reason for their membership. A number of these teams are historical members dating back to when the Big 6>Big 7>Big 8, now Big 12 members broke away, and these were the replacements. UNI, MSU and Evansville are all the add-ons, all the others have been with the MVC for quite a long time.

But for every one of the MVC's markets, there is significant competition. The MVC is anywhere from the 2nd Rung of schools in the state down to 4th or 5th in their states.

In the following MVC markets, these are the competition of a higher order:

Wichita State (regional team): Kansas (statewide team) and Kansas State (statewide team)

Creighton (regional team): Nebraska (statewide team)

Drake (regional team) : Iowa State (statewide team) and Iowa (statewide team), plus UNI (regional team), its conference mate

UNI (regional team): Iowa (statewide team) and Iowa State (statewide team), plus Drake (regional team), its conference mate

Missouri State (regional team): Mizzou (statewide team) plus Saint Louis U and UMKC are big in the KC and St. L metro areas

Bradley (regional team): Illinois (statewide team) and Conference mates ISU (regioanl team) and SIU (regional team), plus all the Chicago-based schools including Northwestern (regional team with some broader support) and UIC (regional team) and all the other regional schools in the state (EIU, NIU, etc). Also, U of Illinois is with 1.5 hours away and ISU is 45 minutes away. Hardly no competition.

Illinois State (regional team): Illinois (statewide team) and Conference mates Bradley (regional team) and SIU (regional team), plus all the Chicago-based schools including Northwestern (regional team with some broader support) and UIC (regional team) and all the other regional schools in the state (EIU, NIU, etc). Also both Illinois and Bradley are both 45 minutes away, hardly no competition.

Southern Illinois (regional team): Illinois (statewide team) and Conference mates ISU (regioanl team) and Bradley (regional team), plus all the Chicago-based schools including Northwestern (regional team with some broader support) and UIC (regional team) and all the other regional schools in the state (EIU, NIU, etc).

Indiana State (regional team): Indiana (statewide team), Purdue (statewide team), Notre Dame (subnational regional team), Ball State (regional team), IUPUI (regional team), Butler (regional team), Valpo (regional team), IPFW (regional team), and conference mate Evansville (regional team)

Evansville (regional team): Indiana (statewide team), Purdue (statewide team), Notre Dame (subnational regional team), Ball State (regional team), IUPUI (regional team), Butler (regional team), Valpo (regional team), IPFW (regional team), and conference mate Evansville (regional team). Also may be some interest for Louisville and Kentucky in the Evansville market. Hardly no competition.

There is lots of competition in the MVC markets, especially to Big XII and Big 10 schools. Its like the MAC this way, as well as the Sun Belt, Atlantic 10 (some parts of that conference footprint), as well as C-USA, where the SEC, Big 12, and ACC dominate their footprint and is a 2nd rung conference to these higher order conferences. All of these conferences are based on 2nd to 5th rung supported teams in their states with regional support and lacking the statewide support found in the Big 10 and Big 12 statewide flagship school markets, as well as SEC and ACC and Big East markets.

The problem with NDSU and SDSU is that their 1st order statewide markets with their competing statewide flagship D II brethern are smaller markets and are distant locations compared to most of the MVC members and when compared to other teams in the core of the MVC footprint or located in neighboring state close to the footprint and location of current MVC schools.

SLU and Butler are probably the two schools that the MVC would like to have in their conference if they were to expand at all. I would doubt they are even interested in expanding otherwise, unless their is a raid on their conference. Whatever the case may be, any new candidates will need to bring substantial D I experience and at least a mid-major metro market/substate regional market of 500K or more.


Last edited by metropolitan on Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: MVC Expansion
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 3:59 pm 
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Saint Louis University has a valuable market that may one day find itself in the Big East and to its benefit has little instate Division 1 competition. The best place for SLU is the A-10 right now which has upgraded itself during the realignment with two good basketball schools in SLU and Charlotte. Only if desperate would they try and hook up with the mid major/small market MVC.


SLU is 3rd on the totem pole in Missouri when it comes to D1 schools in state. Ask anybody who lives in Missouri, it goes MU, MSU, then SLU. Now SLU doesn't think that way, but they are a little different anyways. The MVC mid major compared to A-10 is a little off, other than markets they are pretty similar.


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 Post subject: MVC Expansion
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:18 pm 
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Most of the members of the MVC are not thought out based on being "no competition" as a reason for their membership. A number of these teams are historical members dating back to when the Big 6>Big 7>Big 8, now Big 12 members broke away, and these were the replacements. UNI, MSU and Evansville are all the add-ons, all the others have been with the MVC for quite a long time.

But for every one of the MVC's markets, there is significant competition. The MVC is anywhere from the 2nd Rung of schools in the state down to 4th or 5th in their states.

In the following MVC markets, these are the competition of a higher order:

Wichita State (regional team): Kansas (statewide team) and Kansas State (statewide team)

Creighton (regional team): Nebraska (statewide team)

Drake (regional team) : Iowa State (statewide team) and Iowa (statewide team), plus UNI (regional team), its conference mate

UNI (regional team): Iowa (statewide team) and Iowa State (statewide team), plus Drake (regional team), its conference mate

Missouri State (regional team): Mizzou (statewide team) plus Saint Louis U and UMKC are big in the KC and St. L metro areas

Bradley (regional team): Illinois (statewide team) and Conference mates ISU (regioanl team) and SIU (regional team), plus all the Chicago-based schools including Northwestern (regional team with some broader support) and UIC (regional team) and all the other regional schools in the state (EIU, NIU, etc). Also, U of Illinois is with 1.5 hours away and ISU is 45 minutes away. Hardly no competition.

Illinois State (regional team): Illinois (statewide team) and Conference mates Bradley (regional team) and SIU (regional team), plus all the Chicago-based schools including Northwestern (regional team with some broader support) and UIC (regional team) and all the other regional schools in the state (EIU, NIU, etc). Also both Illinois and Bradley are both 45 minutes away, hardly no competition.

Southern Illinois (regional team): Illinois (statewide team) and Conference mates ISU (regioanl team) and Bradley (regional team), plus all the Chicago-based schools including Northwestern (regional team with some broader support) and UIC (regional team) and all the other regional schools in the state (EIU, NIU, etc).

Indiana State (regional team): Indiana (statewide team), Purdue (statewide team), Notre Dame (subnational regional team), Ball State (regional team), IUPUI (regional team), Butler (regional team), Valpo (regional team), IPFW (regional team), and conference mate Evansville (regional team)

Evansville (regional team): Indiana (statewide team), Purdue (statewide team), Notre Dame (subnational regional team), Ball State (regional team), IUPUI (regional team), Butler (regional team), Valpo (regional team), IPFW (regional team), and conference mate Evansville (regional team). Also may be some interest for Louisville and Kentucky in the Evansville market. Hardly no competition.

There is lots of competition in the MVC markets, especially to Big XII and Big 10 schools. Its like the MAC this way, as well as the Sun Belt, Atlantic 10 (some parts of that conference footprint), as well as C-USA, where the SEC, Big 12, and ACC dominate their footprint and is a 2nd rung conference to these higher order conferences. All of these conferences are based on 2nd to 5th rung supported teams in their states with regional support and lacking the statewide support found in the Big 10 and Big 12 statewide flagship school markets, as well as SEC and ACC and Big East markets.

The problem with NDSU and SDSU is that their 1st order statewide markets with their competing statewide flagship D II brethern are smaller markets and are distant locations compared to most of the MVC members and when compared to other teams in the core of the MVC footprint or located in neighboring state close to the footprint and location of current MVC schools.

SLU and Butler are probably the two schools that the MVC would like to have in their conference if they were to expand at all. I would doubt they are even interested in expanding otherwise, unless their is a raid on their conference. Whatever the case may be, any new candidates will need to bring substantial D I experience and at least a mid-major metro market/substate regional market of 500K or more.


Thats about right metro, expect I would say several of the schools have semi-statewide support. While not near the BCS flagship levels, they do get some ink in major papers, tv time, and state wide radio network.


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 Post subject: MVC Expansion
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:55 pm 
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Saint Louis University has a valuable market that may one day find itself in the Big East and to its benefit has little instate Division 1 competition. The best place for SLU is the A-10 right now which has upgraded itself during the realignment with two good basketball schools in SLU and Charlotte. Only if desperate would they try and hook up with the mid major/small market MVC.


SLU is 3rd on the totem pole in Missouri when it comes to D1 schools in state. Ask anybody who lives in Missouri, it goes MU, MSU, then SLU. Now SLU doesn't think that way, but they are a little different anyways. The MVC mid major compared to A-10 is a little off, other than markets they are pretty similar.


What I'm talking about SportsKC is who is the #1 Division 1 basketball option in the city. SLU is the only Division 1 program located in the city of Saint Louis. The statewide teams probably have a greater overall following in St. Louis, but that is besides the point.

The setup of the A-10 is different from the MVC with a lot of universities that are the second banana for basketball with in their respective cities.

A-10 tier breakdown.

Saint Louis
Dayton
Cincinnati, Xavier*
Pittsburgh, Duquense*
Georgetown, George Washington*
Richmond
Charlotte
St.Bonaventure
Villanova, La Salle*, Temple*, St. Joe's*
St.John's, Fordham*
UMass
Providence, Rhode Island*

What you have is about 50% of the A-10 being second banana basketball options within their respective cities.

The MVC schools don't have any second bananas, hence they have great attendance.

The MAC is much the same deal as the MVC except for Eastern Michigan being in the same county as UMichigan. The difference is the causal fan rallies around football in the MAC while its basketball in the MVC.


Last edited by joefather on Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: MVC Expansion
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:20 pm 
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I guess out of all the possible expansion moves toward 12, thinking about it I like Valpariso and WKU.

Valpo fits in the mold of private universities like Bradley, Crieghton, Drake, and Evansville.

WKU is a great pick up for any mid major as the 3rd Division 1 statewide option behind UK and Louisville.

MVC East
Illinios State
Indiana State
Valparasio
Evansville
Western Kentucky
Southern Illinois

MVC West
Missouri State
Witchita State
Creighton
Drake
Northern Iowa
Bradley

It makes a lot of sense for the MVC to seek out another private school to maintain private/public balance like what was done with the addition of Evansville in the early 90's.


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 Post subject: MVC Expansion
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:56 pm 
I live in the St. Louis suburbs.

I would say St. Louis U ranks #3 in the state of MO, behind Mizzou and Missouri State.

SLU doesn't have a football program. Their big deal is BB and soccer. In the mid-1990s they stole the coach (Charley Sthingyhour) from Missouri State (then known as Southwest Missouri State or SWMSU. They teetered
on the edge of the top 25 in men's BB and played respectably in the big dance until they ran up against a team with size. Since then they have dropped back a bit, but typically they might be on a roughly equal footing in BB with Missouri State.

Geographically they are a lousy fit in the A-10. The only school west of Xavier / Dayton.

CUSA cast off its BB schools (SLU, Charlotte, DePaul, and Marquette) when it re-formed as an all-sports conference after being raided by the BE. DePaul and Marquette were invited to the BE. Charlotte and SLU were left in the lurch temporarily.

Charlotte and SLU were then invited to the A-10.
The rumor was that the BE will split, and the 8 non-FB members of the BE would form a "Catholic Conference", expanded to 12 by adding Xavier, SLU, Dayton and one other school.

West:
SLU (A-10)
DePaul (BE)
Marquette (BE)
Notre Dame (BE)
Xavier (A-10)
Dayton (A-10)

East:
Georgetown (BE)
St. John (BE)
Seton Hall (BE)
Providence (BE)
Villanova (BE)
? somebody like Holy Cross ?

Wouldn't Butler be more attractive to the MVC than Valpo ? Indianapolis market vs. Valparaiso ?

Football-wise WKU is essentially in the MVC now (Gateway Conference). At various times they have been strong in BB. I think they would be a nice addition.


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 Post subject: MVC Expansion
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:35 pm 
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I guess out of all the possible expansion moves toward 12, thinking about it I like Valpariso and WKU.

Valpo fits in the mold of private universities like Bradley, Crieghton, Drake, and Evansville.


Valpo is private but it isn't like those schools. Those schools are mid-size metro based schools.


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 Post subject: MVC Expansion
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:18 pm 
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Thats about right metro, expect I would say several of the schools have semi-statewide support. While not near the BCS flagship levels, they do get some ink in major papers, tv time, and state wide radio network.


I think the difference is in semantics. Regional, urban-based, and semi-statewide are synonmous. However, support for Mizzou is large and widespread statewide based on the frequency in the newspapers and devoted space on newspaper websites, as well as statewide radio networks. Missouri State regional support colides with not only the statewide Mizzou support, but also SEMO in the Southeast Missouri and the Boot Heel, CMSU between KC and Columbia/Jefferson City, UMKC in KC metro, NWMSU in the northwest and Truman University in the northeast and SLU in metro St. L. The difference is it is mostly regional but has more support than these other regionals in the state and substantially less than the flagship Mizzou.

The only schools in the nation that have a true "semi-state support" are Marshall, which is really statewide in West Virginia, but WV is in area a small state, USM in Mississippi, which has lower attendance levels than Ole Miss and Miss State but has some radio stations somewhat north in MS, and ECU, which is almost all east of I-95, but their is some support in Raleight and in Winston-Salem, but lacks support in areas where Appallachian State and Western Carolina in the Appallachian West of North Carolina. Almost all flagships on the other hand are statewide support, save UAF in Alaska. Even U Idaho is statewide and Boise State is regional despite Boise State having twice the attendance that UI has.


Last edited by metropolitan on Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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