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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:10 am 
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When you go to Butler's athletics page, you see nothing, and then...boom. It's official: A-10 in '13.

You know, they're moving their tournament out of ACNJ to Brooklyn. You know who might be A-10 bound? Hofstra or Siena.


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 1:47 pm 
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tute79 wrote:
Looking at the A-10 line-up (with Butler, GMU, VCU, minus Temple, minus UNCC), I'm wondering if the conference is trying to create 4 Pods:

NE: UMass, URI, St. Bonnie, Fordham
PA: St. Joe, LaSalle, Duquesne, ?
West: Xavier, Dayton, Butler, SLU
South: GWU, GMU, VCU, Richmond

So that one Pods may not be Pennsylvania, per se, but perhaps the clue to the 16th team might be who fits in there geographically ???

Maybe a powerhouse like - DREXEL !!!!!!

Drexel doesn't seem like the answer, but the A-10 lay-out does appear to be very pod-like.


I said in the other thread that as rational human beings, we seek logic and symmetry. This looks like another response of an intelligent person trying to solve a puzzle of what these conferences are all doing. But I really don't think any time of pod structure is the goal.

There's no point. With 16 members in spread out fashion, the A-10 would just play 16 games, everyone once and your rival once.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:27 pm 
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So GMU is backing out and VCU is in question? WTF!

http://www.eyesradio.com/2012/52-breaki ... o-the-a10/

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 2:54 pm 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
So GMU is backing out and VCU is in question? WTF!

http://www.eyesradio.com/2012/52-breaki ... o-the-a10/


A - That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
B - Sounds like someone has ideas of adding football.
C - Even if B is true, it still means A is correct.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:07 pm 
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JPSchmack wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
So GMU is backing out and VCU is in question? WTF!

http://www.eyesradio.com/2012/52-breaki ... o-the-a10/


A - That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
B - Sounds like someone has ideas of adding football.
C - Even if B is true, it still means A is correct.

VCU was thinking about football, so are they staying too?

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:47 pm 
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JPSchmack wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
So GMU is backing out and VCU is in question? WTF!

http://www.eyesradio.com/2012/52-breaki ... o-the-a10/


A - That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
B - Sounds like someone has ideas of adding football.
C - Even if B is true, it still means A is correct.



It is not the stupidest thing. If GMU feels that the CAA is a better home for them now and in the future, how is that stupid?

Not everyone is chasing this elusive pie-in-sky pot of gold that may not always exist.
Not everyone likes the idea of conferences that stretch across the country, and are really not conferences - but scheduling alliances/marketing schemes.


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:07 pm 
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Here's why it's stupid...

If you are adding football, there's a process.
Charlotte voted to add football in November of 2008. They're going to start playing FCS in September of 2013.
Obviously, Charlotte had a plan in place before the vote. Does George Mason?

Sitting tight in the CAA because of future football aspirations makes no sense...
Georgia State and ODU are already leaving; and VCU is rumored to be leaving.
By the time you add FCS, how many CAA members will be left? (3 of the 11 already on their way out), and how many will be looking to upgrade to FBS -- and have a head start on you? (Villanova already has looked at upgrading and you know JMU is going to consider it).
If you turn down the A-10, they still have a slot to fill. And VCU, Northeastern, Hofstra, and JMU would be on their list to consider.

You don't think the CAA will take you for FCS football if you're a full A-10 member? Only four of the current CAA teams are going to be full CAA members going forward.

Look at the full-membership for the FCS schools:
A-10 (4/6): Richmond, Rhode Island, Duquesne, Fordham, Butler* & Dayton*
CAA (4) : Towson, Delaware, JMU, William & Mary
BE (2): Villanova, Georgetown
AmEast (3): Maine, New Hampshire, StonyBrook
NEC (7): Bryant, Monmouth, Wagner, Sacred Heart, CCSU, Robby Mo, SFPA
MAAC (1/2) Albany, Marist*

There's no worry about being "left out" of a FCS football conference. EVERYONE is in the same boat of mixed-membership.

Joining the A-10 has absolutely no impact on future football aspirations.
Temple was in the league for decades with an FBS program.
Dayton and Butler play non-scholarship FCS.
Richmond, Rhode Island, Duquesne, and Fordham continue to have FCS
football.
UMass and Charlotte added/upgraded football within the confines of the Atlantic 10. Didn't stop them from finding a good home.

There is NOTHING that prevents you from joining the A-10 and still pursuing adding football.



As for the chasing the "pot of gold," I think what often falls through the cracks in this is the impact to a University as a whole. We're not just talking about scheduling athletic games. The Ivy League was formed to schedule athletic games. What does that phrase mean now? It's a brand of prestige for the academic elite.

Universities recognize the role athletics plays in academic recruiting and running a university. GMU knows what exposure in men's basketball does for a school. Their applications, admissions, enrollment, revenue, donations and academic ranking have all risen since their Final Four run. They can be more selective academically with more applications. It makes your UNIVERSITY BETTER to raise your conference affiliation.

Academically, where would you want your school? (Ranks in their categories, 2010)
Conf A 2, 3, 10, 18, 27, 30, 54, 61, 88, 106, 110, 128, Tier 3
Conf B 4, 12, 33, 43, 68, 80, 88, Tier 3, Tier 3, Tier 3


It's really a no brainer decision.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:11 pm 
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JPSchmack wrote:
Here's why it's stupid...

If you are adding football, there's a process.
Charlotte voted to add football in November of 2008. They're going to start playing FCS in September of 2013.
Obviously, Charlotte had a plan in place before the vote. Does George Mason?

Sitting tight in the CAA because of future football aspirations makes no sense...
Georgia State and ODU are already leaving; and VCU is rumored to be leaving.
By the time you add FCS, how many CAA members will be left? (3 of the 11 already on their way out), and how many will be looking to upgrade to FBS -- and have a head start on you? (Villanova already has looked at upgrading and you know JMU is going to consider it).
If you turn down the A-10, they still have a slot to fill. And VCU, Northeastern, Hofstra, and JMU would be on their list to consider.

You don't think the CAA will take you for FCS football if you're a full A-10 member? Only four of the current CAA teams are going to be full CAA members going forward.

Look at the full-membership for the FCS schools:
A-10 (4/6): Richmond, Rhode Island, Duquesne, Fordham, Butler* & Dayton*
CAA (4) : Towson, Delaware, JMU, William & Mary
BE (2): Villanova, Georgetown
AmEast (3): Maine, New Hampshire, StonyBrook
NEC (7): Bryant, Monmouth, Wagner, Sacred Heart, CCSU, Robby Mo, SFPA
MAAC (1/2) Albany, Marist*

There's no worry about being "left out" of a FCS football conference. EVERYONE is in the same boat of mixed-membership.

Joining the A-10 has absolutely no impact on future football aspirations.
Temple was in the league for decades with an FBS program.
Dayton and Butler play non-scholarship FCS.
Richmond, Rhode Island, Duquesne, and Fordham continue to have FCS
football.
UMass and Charlotte added/upgraded football within the confines of the Atlantic 10. Didn't stop them from finding a good home.

There is NOTHING that prevents you from joining the A-10 and still pursuing adding football.



As for the chasing the "pot of gold," I think what often falls through the cracks in this is the impact to a University as a whole. We're not just talking about scheduling athletic games. The Ivy League was formed to schedule athletic games. What does that phrase mean now? It's a brand of prestige for the academic elite.

Universities recognize the role athletics plays in academic recruiting and running a university. GMU knows what exposure in men's basketball does for a school. Their applications, admissions, enrollment, revenue, donations and academic ranking have all risen since their Final Four run. They can be more selective academically with more applications. It makes your UNIVERSITY BETTER to raise your conference affiliation.

Academically, where would you want your school? (Ranks in their categories, 2010)
Conf A 2, 3, 10, 18, 27, 30, 54, 61, 88, 106, 110, 128, Tier 3
Conf B 4, 12, 33, 43, 68, 80, 88, Tier 3, Tier 3, Tier 3


It's really a no brainer decision.

Albany is in the AEC.

I see it this way GMU wants to stay in high school so they can be the best player on the team. They don't want to move up to college for fear of being on the bench(LaSalle). However they could start(Richmond) they just need some balls to find out.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 5:14 pm 
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VCU and GMU are both VA state system schools, and are best-served moving as a unit being the VA schools without football. Honestly, I see this as a way for both programs to assist the Colonial to sort out what just happened to them. And, in all seriousness, how could the CAA, the mighty CAA, a respected multi-bid eastern basketball conference and probably FCS's most prominent conference, go from stud status to dud in so short a time?

The CAA deserves to fight for its existence, and, a shocker in these times, not every program is a climbing gold-digger. The A-10 will wait for quality and class...I think VCU and GMU exemplify this.


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:56 pm 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
VCU and GMU are both VA state system schools, and are best-served moving as a unit being the VA schools without football. Honestly, I see this as a way for both programs to assist the Colonial to sort out what just happened to them. And, in all seriousness, how could the CAA, the mighty CAA, a respected multi-bid eastern basketball conference and probably FCS's most prominent conference, go from stud status to dud in so short a time?

The CAA deserves to fight for its existence, and, a shocker in these times, not every program is a climbing gold-digger. The A-10 will wait for quality and class...I think VCU and GMU exemplify this.



No disrespect to a quality league, but the CAA has been a one-bid league in 15 of the last 18 seasons (all three came after the RPI formula changed). That being said, as an advocate for "non-football" schools in the Dance, I've been saying they SHOULD have been a multi-bid league a lot more (Drexel in 2012 and 2007, Hofstra in 2006, Richmond in 2001 for example).


But the main thing I disagree with is the idea that it's somehow nobel to remain loyal members of the CAA when you have the opportunity to move to the A-10.

Conferences are a self-serving concept. There isn't much about them that aren't. Sure, "like-minded institutions working together," is how they formed. But that in and of itself has always been self-serving, and it's morphed into less positive qualities now.

You have a conference because it's in your best interest: Scheduling, Rivalries (aka revenue), negotiating with a TV network together, creating conference awards to feel good about yourself and give yourselves trophies.

Loyalty is a good thing, but a conference is the wrong thing to be loyal to. Look at it this way, you went to college, right? You had roommates and a dorm room, right? You're loyal to YOUR ROOMMATES, not to THE ROOM. This isn't all that much different. Implying that leaving for another conference is disloyal is like being mad at a roommate for leaving the dorm and moving in with his fiance. Schools grow and change just like people.

I'm an A-10 guy. I "hate" Temple and UMass from my time at St Bona, and I "hate" Xavier from my time at Dayton. But I only hate them from January to UD/Bona's final buzzer in the conference tournament. I root for Xavier & Temple in the NCAAs and UMass in the NIT (tee hee). I don't hate Temple for leaving for the Big East. I understand. They have football. It's a move they have to make. I hope they walk into the Big East and pimp-slap everybody. I'd love to see them go 21-0 regular season and BE Tourney champions.

Why is George Mason and VCU being loyal to the CAA a good thing?
Mason formed the conference with Navy, ECU, American and Richmond, who are all gone now. Old Dominion and Georgia State came and left. VCU landed there when they dropped football.
The CAA added Delaware, Towson and Georgia State for football reasons. It added four schools that aren't similar (private, not public) for self-serving means.

"Like-minded institutions" now means "best group we can be part of." The CAA's been that way for a while now.

Does VCU and GMU have more in common with Drexel, Hofstra (small private, northern, no football), William & Mary (small private, southern with football), JMU and Towson (medium, public, Southern, football) or Wilmington (small, public, southern, no football)?

The A-10 isn't "different" from Mason/VCU any more than the CAA is different from them. They're going to be in a conference with diverse institutions either way. At least in the A-10, the most common denominator is the strongest ("We're basketball schools") whereas in CAA what IS the common denominator for those schools?

VCU and Mason probably have a lot more in common with the A-10 than CAA going forward.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:21 am 
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Article out of Richmond discussing Butler joining the A-10 and the still existing "possibility" of George Mason and VCU joining that league.Link at http://www2.timesdispatch.com/sports/sp ... ar-1886814


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:59 pm 
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JPSchmack wrote:
VCU and Mason probably have a lot more in common with the A-10 than CAA going forward.


That may be true, but GMU is a founding member of the CAA. The signal it sends administratively to the conference and its other members is not one that instills much confidence.

There is no doubt that the loss of ODU will hurt this conference the most. For a basketball-strong conference, I don't know what losing ODU is like...the Big Ten losing Indiana? The PAC-10 losing UCLA? CAA basketball, men's and women's, is ODU.

Losing ODU+VC+GMU+JMU? All those Virginia schools in what was pretty much a conference of Virginia state schools? That's not good.

I wonder if maybe there may be some state politics at play.


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:52 pm 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
JPSchmack wrote:
VCU and Mason probably have a lot more in common with the A-10 than CAA going forward.


That may be true, but GMU is a founding member of the CAA. The signal it sends administratively to the conference and its other members is not one that instills much confidence.

There is no doubt that the loss of ODU will hurt this conference the most. For a basketball-strong conference, I don't know what losing ODU is like...the Big Ten losing Indiana? The PAC-10 losing UCLA? CAA basketball, men's and women's, is ODU.

Losing ODU+VC+GMU+JMU? All those Virginia schools in what was pretty much a conference of Virginia state schools? That's not good.

I wonder if maybe there may be some state politics at play.


I really don't think you care about what message of confidence you're sending for your old conference when you're walking out of it. Losing all those schools is not good. But being the one that stays behind is far worse than being one of the three that leave.

Here's the thing. CAA is a strong basketball conference... but the A-10 is far stronger.

To me, VCU and GMU need to take a serious look at what kind of school do you want to be in 5-10 years?
1 - An FBS school growing into a big program?
2 - An FCS school that routinely goes deep in the playoffs and has a solid basketball program?
3 - A basketball-only school that goes to the dance 8 out of 10 years, wins a game in half of those trips, and makes a second-weekend run in a quarter of those trips?

#3 is probably the aspirations of Drexel, Hofstra, Northeastern and Wilmington. It's NOT the aspiration of Georiga State, ODU, JMU, Towson, Delaware and William & Mary.

#3 is the aspirtion of 10 Atlantic 10 schools (not UMass). The other two, Xavier and Butler, would say "That's who we are now."

So where should VCU and GMU be?

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:06 pm 
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JPSchmack wrote:
So where should VCU and GMU be?


They should be where they want to be, not where a financial plan says where they should be.

I think GMU knows they can move out whenever, with the right allies in place in other conferences. If they don't go through it now, I think they stay so that the CAA can get its footing, then go. And again, it's the smart and responsible move. It's professional and in good moral standing to do so. Don't burn any programs that might become your travel partners in the future. Set a good example.


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:11 pm 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
JPSchmack wrote:
So where should VCU and GMU be?


They should be where they want to be, not where a financial plan says where they should be.

I think GMU knows they can move out whenever, with the right allies in place in other conferences. If they don't go through it now, I think they stay so that the CAA can get its footing, then go. And again, it's the smart and responsible move. It's professional and in good moral standing to do so. Don't burn any programs that might become your travel partners in the future. Set a good example.

That usually is not on the list of things to worry about when switching conferences.

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