The Big Sky could just take one school, just like what some people think the Mid-Con might do. One BSC president is already in favor of adding NDSU alone and with the problems of having a 9 team conference makes for basketball scheduling it would make sense to go to 10. I also think if the Big Sky goes through expansion again the consensus vote will be gone and a seven vote majority will be the rule. I think a few of the BSC schools are fed up with the way expansion is going and want a change in more competitive schools that have fan support and are a well funded, instead of adding schools just to bring in another market. Adding schools based on market has really hurt the quality of Big Sky and it will be further hurt when UNC is added. That is why Fulerton said NDSU is everything the Big Sky needs and that is way the future expansion will probably go.

Yes, but Fullerton also stated that pretty much the only way they can expand with the Dakotas is to reduce the impact of far-distant travel through a 2-division, 12 team league. We have not heard anything about only going to a 10 team league. It is possible. But I think his recent statement on expansion into the Dakotas and what that would require, given the travel/locational problems reflects more of what is situation. It is true that a 9-team league has this limitation that you speak of, but is the remedy of expanding into the Dakotas provide more advantages than it does disadvantages in addressing that problem? Is it more problems than the scheduling problem it is solving through such expansion? Not expanding is always an option, even if the candidate would solve a scheduling problem. That problem would have to be seen as worse than the far-distant travel that is generated by the Dakotas for the Dakotas to be added.

The majority vote rather than consensus is a possible change. But it is difficult to not to try and satisfy in some way those discenting votes when taking such action.

The reason interest is growing for the 2 division BSC indicates there are advantages to expansion especially by re-organizing the conference to minimize travel costs. This satisfies the main objection to the Dakotas and might be the bone the disenters need to go along with the new deal.

Good pt about the markets FargoBison. The BSC experience shows there is a lot more to it than size. Penetration is the key. The SUs have that.

I don't think it completely satisfies the main objection of the Dakotas. Some of the schools might be interested in expansion with Dakota teams. However, PSU and Sac State may not change their objections to them, due to the shear travel distance.




The penetration of the state of North Dakota is nearly equal between the two schools of NDSU and UND, plus U Minnesota support. Its a small market with significant competition. It is smaller than the Ft. Wayne market by far (IPFW).

It would be a stronger penetration of the small ND market if there were no other teams (like the U of Wyoming in Wyoming) but that is not the case, as there is significant following for UND and U Minn in the same market footprint of NDSU.

Hey metro, no offense but you just disagree to disagree. Sorry, but your no longer considered a credible poster, at least by me. Its too bad too, this subject is interesting. Your point of view is well known but posts like your last one put you firmly in the troll category.

Actually there is one BSC president in favor of going to 10 and just taking in NDSU and I believe this was talked about during the last BSC meetings. UNC and NDSU would be travel partners and I remember Montana St president saying something like there were worse travel partners in the BSC. There are direct flights from Fargo to Denver so travel woudn't be horrible. You also have to remember that the BSC is a football league and bringing in a school of NDSU's caliber would be a big deal for the conference. NDSU has support, funding, and tradition of success that few IAA schools can match. Adding one(NDSU) could solve both the scheduling issues and also appease the Montana schools at the same. I am not say it is going to happen or that is more likely their a 12 team setup but it is a possiblity. I actually prefer a 12 team setup and I think that is the best setup overall for the BSC. NDSU, SDSU, and UND could do a lot of good for the conference.

I agree with that conclusion FargoBison. Its going to mean a lot more if and when they actually make any kind of move. If what you have proposed is pre-approved Im certain they would elect to go.

If not them I dont know who the 12th team would be, but a 12 team 2 division conference organized to minimize travel costs would benefit both the Mid Con and the BSC. Unfortunately if we wait for a new NCC school it could be 6 yrs min. before they are through the transition. As it is to have them tag along is difficult due to the timing issue.

Metro is right about the potentiality of more old NCC schools entering the mix. Its a likely event but unclear how it would shake out. It may not be worthwhile for them to move if they have no place to go.

Distance is still an issue and it will be difficult for Sac State and PSU to change their minds. However, great post. Very inclusive and open minded.

Fullerton can also be heard elsewhere totally ignoring the Dakotas and talking up his attempts to draw back Idaho and maybe trap Utah State. Let's just say he's a good politician, which is about as much as his "word" can be trusted. That doesn't disqualify the Dakotas... that just means that you need to be counting presidents, rather than commissioner statements.

Here's another thing with Portland. Most of the 12-school alignments proposed HERE divide Portland State from Montana. Portland State wants a Montana visit every other year, as it guarantees at least 4,000 travelers from Montana to the city. Combined with whatever pressures weigh on Sac State and NAU, that tends to discount 12 IMO. (Thing is, I kind of doubt that Montana travels that many to Sacramento or Flagstaff)

I hear that Pounder, any combo is going to have to distribute the Montana game evenly. That kind of puts Montana in the drivers seat, in a way. Teams that come to Fargo will see 14,000 or so, and a lot of BISON fans travel. I think its going to go Mid Con though. They have the most to gain from a conference organized to minimize travel. It seems to be grouped into east and west already especially if you put IPFW in the mix. If that doesnt happen who knows? Maybe the Dakota schools have no place?

Here are more comments from Mr. Fullerton on NDSU and presumably SDSU. He mentions the 12 school BSC possibility again. He talked with Forum reported Steve Hallstrom. This is the blog:

"Spoke to Big Sky commish Doug Fullerton today. If I had any doubt about where he stands on NDSU (which I guess I didn't) I don't any more.

I don't want to overstate this, but I have a clear understanding that he wants NDSU in his conference. I've heard him say before that his job is to get the presidents to see the strengths of NDSU in a 12 team league, and he repeated that today.

He also said that he's aware that NDSU has touched base with some people in the MidCon and he said that if his presidents feel that NDSU will always be out there as an expansion option that they might be wrong someday. The RPI of the Big Sky is a big issue out there right now, and with both NDSU teams ranked in the mid 100's this season (and having been a little higher at times), they can bring some value to a conference in the near future.

I'd hardly suggest that a bidding war for NDSU is about to ensue, but count the Big Sky boss as one who believes NDSU's value is on the rise. "

Posted by: Hallstrom on 2/3/2006 at 1:14 AM

The comments arent completely empty. There is genuine support in the BSC for the Dakotas.

It sounds like it's a go for NDSU. I wonder who the other two will be and what a timetable is. Also, would they hold out on an invite to the Mid Con for this deal?

Unless they change their mind on Southern Utah, which currently doesn't meet the academic standards that the BSC wants, or Cal-Davis and Cal Poly don't change their mind on wanting to stay in the Big West for other sports, then the three are likely to be these three for this scenario, if UND moves up:

NDSU
UND
SDSU

UND being in the conference pre their D-I complete transfer would not be unusual as North Florida and Kennesaw State were both invited into the Atlantic Sun even before they made the jump from D II to D I.

As a UND alum, the news release from this past December that UND had officially assembled a DI review team was a clear signal that a DI move is practically inevitable. The very action of publicly announcing a DI review team destabilizes the seven-member North Central Conference, which UND has previously vigorously defended. UND has informally studied DI for years, but its leadership has practically insisted that a DI conference bid be at a minimum informally forthcoming prior to moving up. IMO, the Big Sky must have given UND a clear signal that they will be invited. Watch for a DI announcement by UND in May. This fall, watch for an announcement by the Big Sky of another round of expansion. IMO, a 12-member Big Sky conference will be in place by the 2008-9 season after adding SDSU, NDSU, and UND.

As for the NCC, I think UN-Omaha will leave and join the MIAA. UN-Kearney will also leave the RMAC for the MIAA.

The remaining five NCC schools will have to try to piece together a decent DII conference. Winona St from the NSIC, Wisc-Parkside from the GVLC, and Mich Tech and N Mich from the GLIAC would probably be the targets. The NCC may morph from a northern plains conference into a northern woods/lakes conference.

I could also see South Dakota trying to get into the MIAA with UNO.