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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:28 am 
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The Horizon League would be great for The Dakotas. The Dakotas would be a bad fit for the Horizon League, as the DSUs are still quite some distance from Wisconsin-Milwaukee and Wisconsin-Green Bay. The HL would also need to take a school in Iowa, Minnesota, or Missouri for such a move to be more appetizing, but that would lead to a rather icky divisional alignment with the Chicago schools split:

HL-West:
UWGB
UWM
Loyola-Chicago or UIC
NDSU
SDSU
???

HL-East:
Youngstown
Wright State
Butler
Detroit Mercy
Cleveland State
UIC or Loyola-Chicago

If the HL takes the Dakotas, either an eastern school would need to leave (putting both Chicago schools in the East), or would need to take another eastern school (putting both Chicago schools in the West)


I agree about this, totally. No doubt about that.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 5:43 pm 
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Yea, its a good idea. How about IPFW as the third school?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 7:10 pm 
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The Horizon has a different characteristic than the Mid Con. In the Mid Con, you have some rurality. Macomb, IL, and Cedar City, UT.

The Horizon is different, because you have almost no rurality. Remember, the Horizon League used to be named The Midwest City Conference. It is primarily an urban market league. Green Bay, which coupled with nearby Appelton-Oshkosh is the smallest market, and even that market has 500K. Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, Indy, Dayton, Cleveland, Youngstown and Green Bay-Fox Cities are not going to want to include Fargo and Brookings, or Grand Forks into their market footprint.

IPFW on the other hand makes some sense as far as the urban character and market of the league. Ft. Wayne is in that 500K area and is similar to Green Bay-Fox Cities and Youngstown in character. But even then I think its doubtful. The Horizon would be more interested in UMKC or IUPUI, Valpo, or Oakland, (the last 3 if Butler, UIC or Loyola, or Detroit left the Horizon) before the far distant small town Dakota schools.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:37 pm 
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I think the idea is for the Horizon to invite us, not to find reasons not to invite us. There is foundation and the idea presented above is a good one. The Mid Con works too.

As DI expands conferences are going to have to grow in size and/or number. First come first serve. Moving several yrs ahead of the popular curve (at least in our area) is now a huge advantage.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:44 pm 
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Quote from the Horizon League website:

http://horizonleague.collegesports.com/school-bio/hori-about-story.html

"The Horizon League is well equipped to handle its heightened visibility. Horizon League media markets, including five of the nation's top 35 in Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Indianapolis, and Milwaukee, cover more than nine million television households and encompass nine percent of the country's television audience. The member institutions are generally located in vibrant major metropolitan areas and benefit from the business, cultural, educational, and entertainment resources available to the university community."



Fargo and Brookings are not vibrant major metropolitan areas. They are not really affinity markets with that of the major sized character of markets that the Horizon League comprises and identifies with.


Last edited by metropolitan on Thu Feb 23, 2006 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:18 pm 
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Quote:
Quote from the Horizon League website:

http://horizonleague.collegesports.com/school-bio/hori-about-story.html

"The Horizon League is well equipped to handle its heightened visibility. Horizon League media markets, including five of the nation's top 35 in Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Indianapolis, and Milwaukee, cover more than nine million television households and encompass nine percent of the country's television audience. The member institutions are generally located in vibrant major metropolitan areas and benefit from the business, cultural, educational, and entertainment resources available to the university community."



Fargo and Brookings are not vibrant major metropolitan areas. They are not really affinity markets with that of the major sized character of markets that the Horizon League comprises and identifies with.


Forgot one word before there met.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 10:50 pm 
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Yes, and by "generally" they are likely referring to the mid major metropolitan areas of Dayton, Youngstown and Green Bay. Fargo and Brookings are not a Dayton, Youngstown nor even a Green Bay.

They also talk about heightened visibility. You don't get heightened visibility by expanding your footprint to the rural Dakotas. UMKC of any of the Mid Con teams or other Midwestern independent teams would fit the paragraph that is described above. KC is one of the top 4 Jazz cities, along with Chicago, and it is also a corporate town. The last part of that sentence is:

"benefit from the business[Sprint, Hallmark, Honeywell, AT & T, Burlington-Northern-Santa Fe-Railroad], cultural [Jazz, KC Art Institute, Country Club Plaza], educational [UMKC, KU Medical Center, and KU nearby], and entertainment resources [World's of Fun, Royals, Chiefs, Negro Baseball Museum] available to the university community."

Fargo and Brookings can't be inserted too well in those characteristics describe above. They are far from that character. Dayton as not too far off either with not only Wright State, but U of Dayton, National Cash Register, Wright-Patterson AFB, Miami U, Dayton Art Institute, Aviation Museums, etc. Youngstown State is located in the very rust belt city of Youngstown, but its an old Steel City and has some corporate support for museums. Green Bay-Fox Cities has the Green Bay Packers, Lawrence University, and UWGB and has a world-wide name because of the Packers.

Fargo and Brookings are not likely to be the markets that fit even the Green Bay and Youngstown levels that the Horizon is looking for. Kansas City (UMKC) is what they are looking for. If Detroit, Butler, and Loyola (or UIC) are lost in the future, the Horizon would look to maintain those markets by taking Oakland for Detroit, IUPUI for Butler and Valpo for either Loyola or UIC.


Last edited by metropolitan on Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:16 am 
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It's a domino effect, someone raids the Horizon, the Horizon raids the Mid-Con, the Mid-Con raids the United B-Ball Conference. It's difficult to "skip" levels. I wouldn't see a Dakotas school or IPFW going straight into the Horizon when there are established schools that are closer in the Mid-Con to take, namely those listed above, IUPUI, Valpo, Oakland, or UMKC.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:19 pm 
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UMKC is a good fit institutionally, but stretches the footprint pretty far west.

The HL already has a school in Indianapolis; granted, they have two Chicago schools, but there's a difference between America's 3rd largest city and 8th largest city.

Valparaiso infringes somewhat on the Chicago market.

Oakland infringes on Detroit Mercy.

The best choice would be to get Saint Louis back!

After that, add IPFW (Fort Wayne is not as big as Indy or Detroit, but it's between them), and if they ever upgrade, NKU (adds footholds in Cincinnati, Lexington, and Louisvile-Cinicinnati is a distinct market from Dayton).


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:42 pm 
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The mention of IUPUI, Oakland and Valpo for the HL is based on a scenario of the HL losing Butler, Detroit and either UIC or Loyola to another conference, perhaps the A 10 due to the A 10 losing members to a BE split off league in the future. Its all based on a domino effect if the BE splits off and the split off league and the A 10 needing more schools. The Horizon League, or its former names of the Midwest Collegiate Conference and before that the Midwest City Conference has a history of replacing teams in markets in which a team from that market has left. U of Dayton used to be in the Horizon League before they were the A 10, then Wright State replaces them. Marquette used to be in the Horizon and then UWMilwaukee replaced them when they went to CUSA and now the BE. At one time the Chicago metro area had three teams in the Horizon with UIC, Loyola and Northern Illinois.

Also, the Horizon has only had a presence in metro areas that are mid-major and mostly major metropolitan areas. It has an urban heritage as can be seen in the present nine members and these former members:

University of Dayton (Atlantic 10) - 1987-1993 (Dayton MSA 1 million)
Duquesne University (Atlantic 10) - 1992-1993 (Pittsburgh MSA 2.3 million)
University of Evansville (Missouri Valley) - 1979-1994 (Evansville MSA 350K)
La Salle University (Atlantic 10) - 1992-1995 (Philadelphia MSA 6 million)
Marquette University (Big East) - 1988-1991 (Milwaukee MSA 1.6 million
Northern Illinois University (MAC) - 1994-1997 (Greater Chicago MSA 9 million)
University of Notre Dame (Big East) - 1982-1995 (South Bend with Elkhart, Michigan City and Niles-Benton Harbor MSAs 700K)
Oklahoma City University (NAIA) - 1979-1985 (Oklahoma City MSA 1.1 million
Oral Roberts University (Mid-Continent) - 1979-1987 (Tulsa MSA 900K)
Saint Louis University (Atlantic 10) - 1981-1991 (St. Louis MSA 2.8 million)
Xavier University (Atlantic 10) - 1979-1995 (Cincinnati MSA 2.1 million)

Its a Big City league now and has that heritage. Kansas City with UMKC would be a little out, but not too far out. It would be the only outlier and the only pseudo outpost which is not too odd for any conference. The Kansas City market with 1.9 million fits in with the affinity and type of schools and their location of the Horizon League despite its slight western location. Some say that Duquense should be kicked out of the A 10. Maybe they should return to the Horizon League and maybe thats another expansion choice in the future as well as UMKC, and IUPUI, Oakland and Valpo if Butler, Detroit and UIC or Loyola left in the future.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:29 pm 
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It's a domino effect, someone raids the Horizon, the Horizon raids the Mid-Con, the Mid-Con raids the United B-Ball Conference. It's difficult to "skip" levels. I wouldn't see a Dakotas school or IPFW going straight into the Horizon when there are established schools that are closer in the Mid-Con to take, namely those listed above, IUPUI, Valpo, Oakland, or UMKC.


I agree with that.

I disagree with the market assessments. IMHO IPFW would already be in a conference if that were the deciding factor, its a secondary factor to be sure, but any of the markets we are talking about including the Dakotas are viable Division I markets.

Other factors are going to carry the day. New members are going to have to benefit the prospective conference in other more fundamental ways. Travel cost savings through reorganization, increased conference revenues through membership fees, committed and competitive athletic programs, proven fan bases and finally peer insitution compatibility with existing members are a few that come to mind.

It looks to me that exisiting conferences the Dakotas might have a realistic chance of joining arent really interested in expansion as long as the auto bids are protected. But if there is motivation to expand the Mid Con appears to benefit the most with the additions of NDSU, SDSU and IPFW.

Fortunately the UBC, GWFC, USL and the new wrestling conference are taking a lot of pressure off the Dakotas. The UBC even offers the germ of a new viable conference especially if other quality move-ups appear that help it out geographically.



Last edited by 11jbb11 on Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:17 pm 
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While market may be secondary criteria in certain conference expansion situations, for the Horizon League its a more primary criteria, given their history as an urban league.

Also, while IPFW is a bigger market than any of the Dakota teams, its a smaller market than many teams in current conferences. Its also relatively new to the conference scene. If it was 4 years later when the Mid Con had a choice between IPFW and Centenary, IPFW would have a stronger candidacy.

Its always about comparing who the candidates are for a conference. IPFW is a mid-major market, but the market criteria is about are they bigger or smaller than the other conference candidates at that given point in time and the relationship of that criteria to other criteria?


Last edited by metropolitan on Sat Feb 25, 2006 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:08 pm 
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Looking back it does seem like IPFW might have been a better fit. I dont know much about why Centenary was choosen but it seems odd? But, a nice fit with the Dakotas and IPFW in an East/West Mid Con.

Your right about the Horizon too. I dont even think the Dakotas are on the radar of the Horizon for about the same reasons. I think its true that DI needs conference options for move-ups and if the established conferences cant find enough advantage to expand the UBC may have a future. For that reason Division 1 needs the UBC and the GWFC. That will help them get auto bids if they survive long enough to qualify. People are already talking about it for the GWFC.



Last edited by 11jbb11 on Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:46 pm 
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Its time for a story, note the astrisk:

*Recruiting is a tough business at URNND and when your the DI-AA coaching hopeful in the 4th year of a 3 year promise to move up to Division I-AA it gets tougher. Promising everyone they will have a chance to play the Division I NDSU BISON doesn't help. They have shown no interest.

This year NDSU again took its choice of the local talent.

Now, I heard, and its just rumor mind you, even though its made its way all the way to the inner chamber of the Golden Arm Committee, that the DI-AA coaching hopeful is now promising recruits they will get a chance to play the BISON!

Just to add icing to the cake he always adds “Probably in the Fabulous Fargo Dome too!!”

He also adds that in the future they wont borrow stock trailers from NDSU to get all their stuff to the DII playoffs and they will get the good hockey buses! Logos covered of course! “Its us against the world Kid!” he says with conviction. You know, I agree. You want to enjoy the honor of the playoffs, especially with the issues your university is facing?

This is a heck of a promise matrix to make for a DI-AA coaching hopeful. Lucky as he has been how can he sell that? Why would a top athlete want to play AGAINST the BISON when they could play FOR The BISON 5 or 6 times every year in the FFD and probably once in the Metro Dome! Our mountain to climb is beating the Gophers, not scheduling them.

The DI-AA coaching hopeful and the rest of the bunch have a ways to go. Their mountain is to get to where we are today. That means hitting the road with all their teams. That means going through the same rebuilding pains that the NDSU Basketball program is getting through. That means asking us for a game. It may also mean asking us for conference admission!

That's a serious question. NDSU now commands the premier college sports market in North Dakota, recognizing of course the cult of hockey. Any team that moves into the Division I market is trying to take share from us.

*Anybody's satire is curiously harmless. Any harm comes from the interpretation of the reader. I assure you this is meant with no harm or resemblance to anyone ever. If it seems like it is, your wrong. Its simply a fictional account of a true situation. I should have made that clear when this series was started. Its about the University of Remote Northern North Dakota (URNND) small college football. Its coach, its players, its fans and their collective hopes, dreams and experiences and how it all relates to NDSU the mighty Land Grant to the South:


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:16 pm 
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Saying "rural" in this comparison of Fargo and Grand Forks is not applicable as it has no application in the comparison, or if you use the term "rural" for one, you need to use it for both. Why? Because both Fargo and Grand Forks have the same index of rurality, as determined by this paper, on page two, where both Fargo-Moorhead MSA has the very same Rurality Index as the Grand Forks MSA, which is:

#3 of the index of the Rural-Urban Continuum (counties in metropolitan areas of 250,000 or fewer people. IE all of the following are in that classification: Fargo MSA, Grand Forks MSA, Bismarck MSA, Sioux Falls MSA, Rapid City MSA, St. Cloud MSA (if you don't include it in the Minneapolis-St. Paul-St. Cloud CSA):

Page 2 (Table B.1)

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1595/MR1595.appb.pdf


The US Department of Agriculture has applied this very Rural-Urban Continuum Index to all counties in the US. Here's the codes for the counties in North Dakota in which you find both Cass (Fargo) and Grand Forks (Grand Forks) with the very same Continuum Index of 3:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/RuralUrbanContinuumCodes/2003/LookUpRUCC.asp?C=R&ST=ND

So its either UND and NDSU or URNND and RSNDSU.


Last edited by metropolitan on Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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