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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 4:08 pm 
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To the surprise of nobody, it's official: Oakland to the Horizon League on July 1 of this year.....

http://www.horizonleague.org/


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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 4:38 pm 
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If we're going to talk about a 12-team Horizon League IUPUI and IPFW are a given. After that we're looking at W Illinois, Chicago St, and Rbt Morris.

Rbt Morris is not that far of a geographic stretch as Pittsburgh is close to both Youngstown and Cleveland. The Colonials would have to find a home for their football team--they could pull their scholarships and go to the Pioneer or try to broker something to either keep their team in the ever shrinking NEC fb or with the also-threatened Big South. Both of those football leagues have to be fearing for their futures right now.

WIU is also looking to get out of the sinking Summit. Football isn't too much of a concern; while a full invite to the MVC is out of the question the MVFC needs them. They might prefer a full invite to the OVC if that conference is interested. I think there is a good bet WIU would be up for Horizon League membership especially if the Dakota schools are on the verge of going to the Big Sky.

Lastly we have Chicago St, the least attractive candidate. The one perk this school has is that they are in Chi-town and won't stretch the footprint at all. They are the last resort--NKU of the A-Sun might even get considered before them as the Norsemen would be a geographic rival/travel partner for Wright St.


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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 4:49 pm 
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fighting muskie wrote:
If we're going to talk about a 12-team Horizon League IUPUI and IPFW are a given. After that we're looking at W Illinois, Chicago St, and Rbt Morris.

Rbt Morris is not that far of a geographic stretch as Pittsburgh is close to both Youngstown and Cleveland. The Colonials would have to find a home for their football team--they could pull their scholarships and go to the Pioneer or try to broker something to either keep their team in the ever shrinking NEC fb or with the also-threatened Big South. Both of those football leagues have to be fearing for their futures right now.

WIU is also looking to get out of the sinking Summit. Football isn't too much of a concern; while a full invite to the MVC is out of the question the MVFC needs them. They might prefer a full invite to the OVC if that conference is interested. I think there is a good bet WIU would be up for Horizon League membership especially if the Dakota schools are on the verge of going to the Big Sky.

Lastly we have Chicago St, the least attractive candidate. The one perk this school has is that they are in Chi-town and won't stretch the footprint at all. They are the last resort--NKU of the A-Sun might even get considered before them as the Norsemen would be a geographic rival/travel partner for Wright St.


They didn't seem interested in IPFW or IUPUI, the names on the list for Horizon 12 were, UMKC, NKU, Robert Morris, Belmont, SIUE

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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 5:29 pm 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
If we're going to talk about a 12-team Horizon League IUPUI and IPFW are a given. After that we're looking at W Illinois, Chicago St, and Rbt Morris.

Rbt Morris is not that far of a geographic stretch as Pittsburgh is close to both Youngstown and Cleveland. The Colonials would have to find a home for their football team--they could pull their scholarships and go to the Pioneer or try to broker something to either keep their team in the ever shrinking NEC fb or with the also-threatened Big South. Both of those football leagues have to be fearing for their futures right now.

WIU is also looking to get out of the sinking Summit. Football isn't too much of a concern; while a full invite to the MVC is out of the question the MVFC needs them. They might prefer a full invite to the OVC if that conference is interested. I think there is a good bet WIU would be up for Horizon League membership especially if the Dakota schools are on the verge of going to the Big Sky.

Lastly we have Chicago St, the least attractive candidate. The one perk this school has is that they are in Chi-town and won't stretch the footprint at all. They are the last resort--NKU of the A-Sun might even get considered before them as the Norsemen would be a geographic rival/travel partner for Wright St.


They didn't seem interested in IPFW or IUPUI, the names on the list for Horizon 12 were, UMKC, NKU, Robert Morris, Belmont, SIUE


Interesting list. I can see NKU and Rbt Morris. SIUE isn't a huge stretch of the imagination either accept that the OVC is a stable, comfortable home right now. Belmont might be tempted to come b/c of Butler's old tournament money but the OVC seems pretty comfortable to them right now. The one I really don't get is UMKC--this school voluntarily donwgraded themselves, shooting the Summit in the foot in the process. Both UMKC and Belmont would be geographic stretches in a conference that has a history of valuing compactness.

Was this your list or something you found somewhere?


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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 6:23 pm 
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fighting muskie wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
If we're going to talk about a 12-team Horizon League IUPUI and IPFW are a given. After that we're looking at W Illinois, Chicago St, and Rbt Morris.

Rbt Morris is not that far of a geographic stretch as Pittsburgh is close to both Youngstown and Cleveland. The Colonials would have to find a home for their football team--they could pull their scholarships and go to the Pioneer or try to broker something to either keep their team in the ever shrinking NEC fb or with the also-threatened Big South. Both of those football leagues have to be fearing for their futures right now.

WIU is also looking to get out of the sinking Summit. Football isn't too much of a concern; while a full invite to the MVC is out of the question the MVFC needs them. They might prefer a full invite to the OVC if that conference is interested. I think there is a good bet WIU would be up for Horizon League membership especially if the Dakota schools are on the verge of going to the Big Sky.

Lastly we have Chicago St, the least attractive candidate. The one perk this school has is that they are in Chi-town and won't stretch the footprint at all. They are the last resort--NKU of the A-Sun might even get considered before them as the Norsemen would be a geographic rival/travel partner for Wright St.


They didn't seem interested in IPFW or IUPUI, the names on the list for Horizon 12 were, UMKC, NKU, Robert Morris, Belmont, SIUE


Interesting list. I can see NKU and Rbt Morris. SIUE isn't a huge stretch of the imagination either accept that the OVC is a stable, comfortable home right now. Belmont might be tempted to come b/c of Butler's old tournament money but the OVC seems pretty comfortable to them right now. The one I really don't get is UMKC--this school voluntarily donwgraded themselves, shooting the Summit in the foot in the process. Both UMKC and Belmont would be geographic stretches in a conference that has a history of valuing compactness.

Was this your list or something you found somewhere?

Yeah, 2 lists the 1st only had Oakland and UMKC, UMKC isn't even in the HL footprint, the more recent one was the rest of those. It was from the csn or cs.com board, maybe it was posted here too. It was the 1st list that said IUPUI and IPFW were not options

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:18 am 
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If the Horizon League goes to 12 teams (and the consensus is they will), then the "realistic" choices are Northern Kentucky, Belmont, Murray State, Robert Morris and Evansville. Standby choices are UMKC, Omaha and possibly whatever fall-out remains from the upcoming Big East expansion.

Northern Kentucky is the given. When they did their Division I upgrade analysis, the Horizon League was the preferred league. The HL deemed it wasn't time yet and did not want to "coddle" a probationary team that would still impact their rpi and thusly their ability to be more than a one-bid league. They'll be there when the invitation is given...even moreso now, given that ETSU and Mercer are leaving the A-Sun.

Belmont was coming to the HL but became leery of the stability of the League after Butler and then Loyola left. They didn't want to come to a situation where all of a sudden they join a league that becomes worse than the one they left. The didn't sign up for that! Once the HL proves to Belmont that there is stability and if the Horizon can get more than one team into the Dance and at least one of them has a decent run (not necessarily a la Butler to the Championship game), then its chances would be above average to get Belmont.

Evansville, along with the two programs mentioned above, would be the best three. Murray State, probably won't leave the OVC, being founding members and extremely comfortable getting to the Dance on a semi-regular basis from a weak league. Evansville is still in way over their heads in the Missouri Valley. They bit off more than they could chew and haven't reached the level of most of the Valley schools, in spending or talent. It was surprising that they left the MCC/HL in the first place since they weren't setting anything on fire then! They would be a travel partner for Belmont as they are a 15 minute difference than Murray State would be to Belmont. There were rumors in 2012 about Evansville coming back to the Horizon League. With the exodus of Creighton and grumblings from Wichita State fans about leaving for a better conference and also Missouri State and Northern Iowa wanting to upgrade to FBS football (although the MVFC is a separate entity), Evansville might want to rethink the stability of the Valley and "come on back home"!

Of the next set of options, Robert Morris would be the best. They don't have baseball and that is the second sport in the Horizon. That would also be Kansas City's problem as well...no baseball.

We here in the Horizon League are just waiting until the end of the college hoops season and waiting on the Big East to see how things fall.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:29 pm 
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Flamesmania wrote:
If the Horizon League goes to 12 teams (and the consensus is they will), then the "realistic" choices are Northern Kentucky, Belmont, Murray State, Robert Morris and Evansville. Standby choices are UMKC, Omaha and possibly whatever fall-out remains from the upcoming Big East expansion.

Northern Kentucky is the given. When they did their Division I upgrade analysis, the Horizon League was the preferred league. The HL deemed it wasn't time yet and did not want to "coddle" a probationary team that would still impact their rpi and thusly their ability to be more than a one-bid league. They'll be there when the invitation is given...even moreso now, given that ETSU and Mercer are leaving the A-Sun.

Belmont was coming to the HL but became leery of the stability of the League after Butler and then Loyola left. They didn't want to come to a situation where all of a sudden they join a league that becomes worse than the one they left. The didn't sign up for that! Once the HL proves to Belmont that there is stability and if the Horizon can get more than one team into the Dance and at least one of them has a decent run (not necessarily a la Butler to the Championship game), then its chances would be above average to get Belmont.

Evansville, along with the two programs mentioned above, would be the best three. Murray State, probably won't leave the OVC, being founding members and extremely comfortable getting to the Dance on a semi-regular basis from a weak league. Evansville is still in way over their heads in the Missouri Valley. They bit off more than they could chew and haven't reached the level of most of the Valley schools, in spending or talent. It was surprising that they left the MCC/HL in the first place since they weren't setting anything on fire then! They would be a travel partner for Belmont as they are a 15 minute difference than Murray State would be to Belmont. There were rumors in 2012 about Evansville coming back to the Horizon League. With the exodus of Creighton and grumblings from Wichita State fans about leaving for a better conference and also Missouri State and Northern Iowa wanting to upgrade to FBS football (although the MVFC is a separate entity), Evansville might want to rethink the stability of the Valley and "come on back home"!

Of the next set of options, Robert Morris would be the best. They don't have baseball and that is the second sport in the Horizon. That would also be Kansas City's problem as well...no baseball.

We here in the Horizon League are just waiting until the end of the college hoops season and waiting on the Big East to see how things fall.


Interesting points of view Flames. But I have this question. Do you believe that the Horizon League would have in mind to expand schools that are not compatible with the traditional geographic footprint (which is basically the right side of the Midwestern U.S.)?

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Last edited by ncaanopaawaa2000 on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:07 pm 
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I never thought of Belmont being HL material, though I guess it was because I didn't think of the HL moving that emphatically south to get them. I could see Belmont being a bit reluctant, but not for "stability." Belmont would be one of the few/only private schools in a public school (and, really, now almost a system school) league. I kind of thought they were on that CAA track.

I also kind of thought the Horizon was where the IUPU's wanted to go, which was part of the reason why Valpo was trying to "escape," and what finally did it for Butler (not that the allure of the A10 and then the Big East wasn't enough, but "staying put" meant being with these schools they weren't fond of having at the same level). The IUPU's seem to make the most sense for the Horizon.

Robert Morris makes sense. Robert Morris cutting those programs in anticipation of a conference where it becomes the far easternmost member rather than the westernmost in a smaller conference even more so.

Good stuff!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:04 am 
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Flamesmania wrote:
If the Horizon League goes to 12 teams (and the consensus is they will), then the "realistic" choices are Northern Kentucky, Belmont, Murray State, Robert Morris and Evansville. Standby choices are UMKC, Omaha and possibly whatever fall-out remains from the upcoming Big East expansion.

Northern Kentucky is the given. When they did their Division I upgrade analysis, the Horizon League was the preferred league. The HL deemed it wasn't time yet and did not want to "coddle" a probationary team that would still impact their rpi and thusly their ability to be more than a one-bid league. They'll be there when the invitation is given...even moreso now, given that ETSU and Mercer are leaving the A-Sun.

Belmont was coming to the HL but became leery of the stability of the League after Butler and then Loyola left. They didn't want to come to a situation where all of a sudden they join a league that becomes worse than the one they left. The didn't sign up for that! Once the HL proves to Belmont that there is stability and if the Horizon can get more than one team into the Dance and at least one of them has a decent run (not necessarily a la Butler to the Championship game), then its chances would be above average to get Belmont.

Evansville, along with the two programs mentioned above, would be the best three. Murray State, probably won't leave the OVC, being founding members and extremely comfortable getting to the Dance on a semi-regular basis from a weak league. Evansville is still in way over their heads in the Missouri Valley. They bit off more than they could chew and haven't reached the level of most of the Valley schools, in spending or talent. It was surprising that they left the MCC/HL in the first place since they weren't setting anything on fire then! They would be a travel partner for Belmont as they are a 15 minute difference than Murray State would be to Belmont. There were rumors in 2012 about Evansville coming back to the Horizon League. With the exodus of Creighton and grumblings from Wichita State fans about leaving for a better conference and also Missouri State and Northern Iowa wanting to upgrade to FBS football (although the MVFC is a separate entity), Evansville might want to rethink the stability of the Valley and "come on back home"!

Of the next set of options, Robert Morris would be the best. They don't have baseball and that is the second sport in the Horizon. That would also be Kansas City's problem as well...no baseball.

We here in the Horizon League are just waiting until the end of the college hoops season and waiting on the Big East to see how things fall.


I like NKU to the HL.
Belmont and Evansville...I am not so certain about. I believe it would take a commitment from more than NKU to land Evansville or Belmont. Otherwise, I don't feel the HL is attractive enough to pull either school out of their existing conference.
The 'Grid' says that Bellarmine is considering an upgrade. Any idea how current that info is? Could they be a candidate for the HL?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:50 pm 
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The Horizon does not have the power to pull a school out of the OVC especially not a football school like Murray St. Belmont's eyes are on a conference like the Atlantic Ten--normally this would seem like a stretch but they are in proximity to a major airport, would bring a decent sized tv market, and pair well geographically with Davidson. Belmont just needs to show that their success has sustainability and for the Big East to decide to expand again and grab from the A-10.

I think that a more realistic group of schools to consider would be NKU, Bellarmine, IUPUI, IPFW, WIU, and Robert Morris. My personal preferences would be IUPUI, IPFW, and NKU. The Horizon was built upon traveling pairs and would result in a pretty neat and tidy set up

East-- Youngstown St/Cleveland St, Detroit Mercy/Oakland, Wright St/NKU
West--IUPUI/IPFW, Valpo/UIC, Milwaukee/Green Bay

NKU brings you the Cincinnati area and IUPUI brings Indianapolis back into the mix.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:25 pm 
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Robert Morris is probably going to be held hostage by the NEC b/c of football like Wagner currently is or else they'd be in the MAAC.

Bellarmine to D-I picked up in 2011 after they won the D-II title. Even before that they wanted to be the Notre Dame of KY.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:00 pm 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
Robert Morris is probably going to be held hostage by the NEC b/c of football like Wagner currently is or else they'd be in the MAAC.

Bellarmine to D-I picked up in 2011 after they won the D-II title. Even before that they wanted to be the Notre Dame of KY.


If it means that much to Robert Morris to be in a better bb league they could always go to non-scholarship football and the Pioneer League--they are short a member


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:01 pm 
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fighting muskie wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
Robert Morris is probably going to be held hostage by the NEC b/c of football like Wagner currently is or else they'd be in the MAAC.

Bellarmine to D-I picked up in 2011 after they won the D-II title. Even before that they wanted to be the Notre Dame of KY.


If it means that much to Robert Morris to be in a better bb league they could always go to non-scholarship football and the Pioneer League--they are short a member


You would think that Wagner would have done that, but they didn't. I wonder if they hit up the Big South like Monmouth did, but got rejected. Would the Big South take Robert Morris for fb?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:26 am 
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fighting muskie wrote:
The Horizon does not have the power to pull a school out of the OVC especially not a football school like Murray St. Belmont's eyes are on a conference like the Atlantic Ten--normally this would seem like a stretch but they are in proximity to a major airport, would bring a decent sized tv market, and pair well geographically with Davidson. Belmont just needs to show that their success has sustainability and for the Big East to decide to expand again and grab from the A-10.

I think that a more realistic group of schools to consider would be NKU, Bellarmine, IUPUI, IPFW, WIU, and Robert Morris. My personal preferences would be IUPUI, IPFW, and NKU. The Horizon was built upon traveling pairs and would result in a pretty neat and tidy set up

East-- Youngstown St/Cleveland St, Detroit Mercy/Oakland, Wright St/NKU
West--IUPUI/IPFW, Valpo/UIC, Milwaukee/Green Bay

NKU brings you the Cincinnati area and IUPUI brings Indianapolis back into the mix.


The Presidents of the Horizon League have already said they do not want anything to do with IUPUI or IPFW. Now LeCrone, who lives in Indy where the HL offices are, may have a different viewpoint...but the Presidents are in charge.

You mention that the Horizon League doesn't have the power to pull a school out of the OVC. I mentioned earlier that Murray State probably won't come because of football and they are a founding member of the OVC. The only true "power" in "pulling" a team from a league is that team's willingness to be a part of a league that is twice as powerful as their current league. The OVC is normally ranked in the mid-20's, while the Horizon League's average rpi is 12. Granted, we want to be better, but it's kinda tough to break past a bunch of BCS schools. We currently are 13 this season, two spots behind the MVC and one behind the MAC, which is having an abnormal breakout season. So if Belmont wants a chance to be a part of a league that has big markets (like they are), is not bogged down by football (like they aren't), and is only a 2.5 hour flight to the farthest team (Green Bay), then the Horizon League is the choice. Oh, and did I mention that the Horizon is about 12 or 13 notches above the OVC. With Belmont they would enhance the chances of the HL becoming a consistent 2-bid and possibly 3-bid league.

Robert Morris will be out because they don't have baseball. Even with the addition of Oakland we are still at the minimum 6 teams for the NCAA Automatic Qualifier, so the next team(s) has to have baseball.

WIU is a team in no man's land. They are difficult to get to and would make a travel partner for no one in the league. They are not on the HL's radar.

At one point the Horizon League did have eastern teams (not including Wright State, Cleveland State and Youngstown State) La Salle (3 years) and Duquesne (1 season). So it's not that much of a stretch that it couldn't happen again. La Salle, in all likelihood, probably won't make that move. They are in a nice place in the A-10 right now.

At the moment, NKU seems like the sure thing to get the HL to 10 teams. 11 & 12 will be a wait-and-see crapshoot.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:59 pm 
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Flamesmania wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
The Horizon does not have the power to pull a school out of the OVC especially not a football school like Murray St. Belmont's eyes are on a conference like the Atlantic Ten--normally this would seem like a stretch but they are in proximity to a major airport, would bring a decent sized tv market, and pair well geographically with Davidson. Belmont just needs to show that their success has sustainability and for the Big East to decide to expand again and grab from the A-10.

I think that a more realistic group of schools to consider would be NKU, Bellarmine, IUPUI, IPFW, WIU, and Robert Morris. My personal preferences would be IUPUI, IPFW, and NKU. The Horizon was built upon traveling pairs and would result in a pretty neat and tidy set up

East-- Youngstown St/Cleveland St, Detroit Mercy/Oakland, Wright St/NKU
West--IUPUI/IPFW, Valpo/UIC, Milwaukee/Green Bay

NKU brings you the Cincinnati area and IUPUI brings Indianapolis back into the mix.


The Presidents of the Horizon League have already said they do not want anything to do with IUPUI or IPFW. Now LeCrone, who lives in Indy where the HL offices are, may have a different viewpoint...but the Presidents are in charge.

You mention that the Horizon League doesn't have the power to pull a school out of the OVC. I mentioned earlier that Murray State probably won't come because of football and they are a founding member of the OVC. The only true "power" in "pulling" a team from a league is that team's willingness to be a part of a league that is twice as powerful as their current league. The OVC is normally ranked in the mid-20's, while the Horizon League's average rpi is 12. Granted, we want to be better, but it's kinda tough to break past a bunch of BCS schools. We currently are 13 this season, two spots behind the MVC and one behind the MAC, which is having an abnormal breakout season. So if Belmont wants a chance to be a part of a league that has big markets (like they are), is not bogged down by football (like they aren't), and is only a 2.5 hour flight to the farthest team (Green Bay), then the Horizon League is the choice. Oh, and did I mention that the Horizon is about 12 or 13 notches above the OVC. With Belmont they would enhance the chances of the HL becoming a consistent 2-bid and possibly 3-bid league.

Robert Morris will be out because they don't have baseball. Even with the addition of Oakland we are still at the minimum 6 teams for the NCAA Automatic Qualifier, so the next team(s) has to have baseball.

WIU is a team in no man's land. They are difficult to get to and would make a travel partner for no one in the league. They are not on the HL's radar.

At one point the Horizon League did have eastern teams (not including Wright State, Cleveland State and Youngstown State) La Salle (3 years) and Duquesne (1 season). So it's not that much of a stretch that it couldn't happen again. La Salle, in all likelihood, probably won't make that move. They are in a nice place in the A-10 right now.

At the moment, NKU seems like the sure thing to get the HL to 10 teams. 11 & 12 will be a wait-and-see crapshoot.

I'd like to see you guys get Belmont so that N.Alabama could replace them in the OVC. NKU works too, ASC will need to scramble to find an 8th member to replace them. Really they should already be adding D-II members. KSU is a flight risk already fb only in Big South. NKU has been talked about to the HL for a while.

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