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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:19 pm 
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One of the great things about moving up to Division I is renewing old rivalries like this one. We had the Gophers down only to watch it slip away and KState caught us on a down night. Next season KState comes to Fargo. Talk about a big game.

BB was called the sleeping giant in the NDSU sports market. Now with the UBC we will have a chance to develop that market to its fullest. No doubt we will continue to play some of the great schools like Wisconsin too. It couldnt be more fun and I think its going to be very big here in Fargo. there were around 100 people over on Bisonville during the game. Thats more than football would have.

No doubt the more we interact with other teams and as more and more teams have the experience of coming to Fargo our options are going to expand. Two yrs ago we only had the GWFC. Now we are stabilized in our key sports with volleyball the last one looking. Hopefully the new affiliation is going to help with that.

this is an incremental process for NDSU. As we build our programs our options will expand. We have seen that happen already. It wasnt that long ago all we had was the GWFC. One by one the objections of the naysayers have fallen by the wayside. From an NDSU perspective the future looks good. If nothing else, todays game announced to the division that we came to play.

Heres more on the big BISON win from ESPN:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=2300950


Last edited by 11jbb11 on Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:36 pm 
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NDSU's series with the University of Wisconsin is hardly a rivalry. Its barely even a series. Especially since they are in two different situations, U Wisconsin one of the largest public universities with one of the largest athletic programs and traditions, and never was in any other conference but the Big 10. NDSU, originally called the North Dakota Agricultural College, has drifted through Division II and NCC status in many years and just moved up. Not many rivalries exist outside of conferences. A team from the Big 10 does not have a rivalry with a team just recently from D II ranks. Thats absurd.

The North Dakota sports market is not a sleeping giant. You can not base your future on one game. A sleeping giant is one that goes from having not much reputation or market size to having great rep and size. This is often found in Sun Belt states. A team on the upper levels would be Florida State or Arizona State or a Boise State. On a lower level, its more like Troy University.

There are no naysayers here, but rather people that want to discuss possibilities and don't want to disparage other schools, but are willing to discuss all the possibilities for future conference alignments in Division I. For this thread, its current and future 1-AA/I-AAA schools that won't be in a conference in the future. For the location of the Dakotas, that means Big Sky, Mid Con, and this scheduling alignment for both NDSU, SDSU, as well as the other 4 members of this so called UBC as well as any future I-AA/I-AAA move ups. Why? Six is not a sustainable number, and certain relationships with potential move ups would likely cause invitations for such an alignment. The world does not only revolve around NDSU in this discussion.


Last edited by metropolitan on Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:26 pm 
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I think its important to keep this in context. We have room for at least 6,500 or, if played in The Fabulous Fargo Dome probably 11,000 or more. NDSU picked up $35,000 and the win today.

I would have to say development of the Division I sports market in Fargo is going great guns, probably better than expected. As it shows its potential it becomes more and more of an asset. So far, so good. Todays game is going to help in a big way. Im expecting BB crowds to climb over 3,000. Fargo could develop into a great stop for UBC teams. I think it will

Renovation of the BSA is just around the corner. Remember this is incremental and will be built one step at a time. today was a great day in BISON Lore! The win feels good. Our team deserved it. It was hard fought and the pressure was on. They are a good team.


Last edited by 11jbb11 on Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:33 pm 
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An arena is not a market. The attendance is only one aspect of the market. North Dakota and its small statewide population can not garner enough buying power to exceed IPFW's market for advertizing dollars, nor is it like NE Indiana as far as a recruiting base, nor does it have the same corporate presence that Ft Wayne has. Marshall has a strong attendance, but its not going to get in the BE. West Virginia has a strong attendance, but Boston College, with less attendance got into the ACC over them. UTEP has better attendance than TCU, but TCU with Dallas-Ft. Worth got into the Mountain West. Northern Colorado, has less attendance than NDSU, but Northern Colorado got into the BSC. If you are a small state and have competition, and you go up against a metro area team from a metro area about the same size as the entire state, you have a smaller market.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:56 pm 
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Well, an arena is a market. True, its part of something larger, but not insignificant in its own right. This is where Fargo will flex its muscle, with dollars in the seats. The internet broadcasts and audio feeds are another measure of market. These Im sure are doing well. I know Im using and paying for both.

The radio market is already state wide and TV is next. Good crowds mean good games. with an average attendance of just under 15,000 for football NDSU has a lot of event revenue. There is a chance to triple our BB revenues.

Once the UBC gets rolling there will be great crowds in Fargo. Todays win is great for the future of BB in Fargo. Its great for the program, the University, City and State.

It looks to me that the gamble NDSU and SDSU took when they moved was well worth it. This is a big market and right now we own it. Creating the UBC really took a lot of pressure out of the situation.


Last edited by 11jbb11 on Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:48 pm 
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Well, an arena is a market.


An arena is a facility, not a market. A facility can be big. But it doesn't necessarily reflect a market. Case in point is Rice Stadium in Houston, Texas. Its 70,000 and has had Super Bowls played in it. But Rice barely averaged above 15,000 last year. Not great attendance for a school called "midmajor". Another case in point is Rynearson Stadium just down the road from me in Ypsilanti, MI. Thats the stadium for Eastern Michigan University. The Stadium was expanded in 1991 from 22,000 to 33,000, from a threat that if they didn't expand it, then the MAC would cease to be a I-A conference. So the taxpayers of the state of Michigan foot the bill to expand it. Guess what? The attendance has never averaged more than 11,000 over its history, last year they averaged 6,000 and the largest crowd ever there was 24,000, some 9,000 short of capacity. The stadium has never been filled. There are seats that no one has ever sat in. What a waste of money.

Also, University of Nebraska at Kearney has an arena about the same size as the BSA and NDSU. There's more to what "market" means than attendance and the size of a facility. Population of the market and buying power as well as recruiting base are also a part of the meaning of "market".

Facilities are facilities. People's feet and dollars are the market. That includes feet that just reside in the market and how much money they spend.


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The internet broadcasts and audio feeds are another measure of market. These Im sure are doing well. I know Im using and paying for both.


Most schools already have those things. NDSU is no different than most schools.


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The radio market is already state wide and TV is next. Good crowds mean good games. with an average attendance of just under 15,000 for football NDSU has a lot of event revenue. There is a chance to triple our BB revenues.


I know that. The radio network is already accounted for in my statement that ND is one of the smallest Division I markets. There's actually a Bison fan that comes here and argues that NDSU is not a statewide team. Can you imagine that? Anyway, even with the statewide market, including radio and internet broadcasts, it is one of the smallest college sports markets in the nation.


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Once the UBC gets rolling there will be great crowds in Fargo.


I could see a great crowd for a NDSU/SDSU game. I can't really see how people would go in droves over UTPA, NJIT, and UVSC and IPFW. Now if UND moves up and becomes a part of the UBC, then there is another big crowd for sure. Perhaps even for SCSU if they moved up into the UBC.


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Todays win is great for the future of BB in Fargo. Its great for the program, the University, City and State.


Sure, great win. It probably doesn't quite have the impact of UND winning the national championship in Hockey though.


Quote:
It looks to me that the gamble NDSU and SDSU took when they moved was well worth it.


NDSU and SDSU moving up to D I was a great move. If UND, USD or any other NCC team did also, those also would be great moves.


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This is a big market and right now we own it.


North Dakota sports market is one of the smallest in the nation. There are 3 teams with significance in the 48th most populated state. Blood is thick. No one owns it. NDSU and UND are both on nearly equal following levels, as both have statewide radio networks and similar basketball attendances.


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Creating the UBC really took a lot of pressure out of the situation.


Yes it is a possible alignment that could form into a conference over time. It could offer any team in the Upper Great Plains/Upper Midwest a home if they decided to move up as well.


Last edited by metropolitan on Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:29 pm 
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Well, I think this victory has now been elevated to the 1965 win over Grambling for the National Football Championship. I think it was the Small College Division then. I was at Dacotah field for most of the home games that yr. This is the holy grail!! Go BISON!!

A handy win by the Women over IPFW, 79-68 is setting the stage for some great UBC rivalries. That internet feed sure is great! I enjoyed several football games too.

Im looking forward to the day when a win like this isnt considered a great upset, but right now it sure feels good!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:35 pm 
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Well, that historical event is certainly big for NDSU overall history, and I agree that today's win is great for the state of North Dakota. But it doesn't match UND's National Championships in Hockey and how those national championships are good for the state.

A team that is from ranks lower than the Missouri Valley and MAC levels in the Midwest beating a Big 10 team is always considered an upset. They just showed the highlights again, and Wisconsin seriously looked like they were in a funk. Three airballs. This was one of the low games where they played below their potential and one of NDSU's high games where they played above their potential.


Last edited by metropolitan on Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:58 am 
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This was just a routine out of conference game for Wisconsin. Typical $35,000 payout, nothing special at all. The fact that "The Win" is compared to the NCAA Hockey championship somehow degrades the hockey title? But maybe your wrong and this is bigger than the hockey title? I actually think it is. But really, how do they relate at all? This is NDSU Division I basketball.

What impressed me most was the BISON defense. We kept them below most of their offensive averages and out rebounded them on the offensive boards. That might be what your seeing as an off night for the Badgers? Of course, its a point hardly worth mentioning.

The UBC is going to give all schools accociated more flexibility in scheduling. Its a big step forward and really helps out the SUs as they work their way into Division I. What a Game!!!! Go BISON!!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 1:40 am 
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This was just a routine out of conference game for Wisconsin. Typical $35,000 payout, nothing special at all.


Yes, nice win, and good for the state of North Dakota, but nothing that will stay on people's minds too much on the national level. They may reflect on it as a big upset and perhaps the biggest of the year, but it can easily be forgotten by the time March Madness hits.


Quote:
The fact that "The Win" is compared to the NCAA Hockey championship somehow degrades the hockey title? But maybe your wrong and this is bigger than the hockey title? I actually think it is. But really, how do they relate at all? This is NDSU Division I basketball.


Its not that they relate, its that I see UND Hockey on TV frequently, and have yet to see NDSU on TV on a broadcasted game. Hockey is one of the more televised college sports. Its below football and basketball, and maybe up their with Baseball, perhaps televised more. On Friday and Saturday nights I can choose to watch up to 3 Hockey games between CSTV and Fox College Sports Channels. Here at the University of Michigan, one of the top public universities in the nation and one of the top college athletic programs, people know about UND Hockey. They never heard of NDSU.


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What impressed me most was the BISON defense. We kept them below most of their offensive averages and out rebounded them on the offensive boards. That might be what your seeing as an off night for the Badgers? Of course, its a point hardly worth mentioning.


No, its worth mentioning. A team will have an off night as the announcer at Nebraska vs Kansas game mentioned on ESPN. Wisconsin shot 22% from the field. You can hardly win against anyone with that kind of night. The scenes that I saw on ESPN, the announcers were talking more about how bad Wisconsin played and didn't really mention too much about how NDSU played. They were more into talking about who the heck NDSU was and the school and location.


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The UBC is going to give all schools accociated more flexibility in scheduling. Its a big step forward and really helps out the SUs as they work their way into Division I. What a Game!!!! Go BISON!!!!


Sure. And if other NCC teams move up, it can help them out as well as they join their former NCC brethern in NDSU and SDSU. This thread is not only about Dakotas States. Its about the UBC, its current members and possible alignments and future teams.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 11:52 am 
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There is a lot of press being given to The Upset! Heres a good article from the Badgers website:

http://www.uwbadgers.com/sport_news/mbb/headlines/full_story.aspx?story_id=2006_01_21_13_30_04_mbb

NDSU was putting 2 and 3 on Taylor and that had some affect on his shooting. We made him take bad shots. He missed his first 12 attempts but when he could shoot unhindered from the free throw line he went 7-9. Having Ben Woodside score a game high 24 for the BISON and make some clutch free throws didnt hurt either.

There are a lot of reasons why the BISON pulled the upset (control of the defensive boards was one). None of them change the outcome which is very positive for NDSU and the new affiliation.

DI BB is the top college sport. It has already been pointed out there are some impressive DI markets in the new affiliation. NDSU will be one of them. As these schools develop their market potential they will become more attractive to existing conferences.

As far as expansion for the UBC? There are no applications for membership yet but I doubt anyone would be turned down unless they really had nothing to offer. Its hard to imagine travel getting any worse!



Last edited by 11jbb11 on Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:17 pm 
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Its interesting in that article that UW can't really even identify the team that beat them:


Quote:
But North Dakota’s lead proved too big, and it made just enough baskets and free throws in the end to earn the victory.


Seems people are confusing NDSU with the University of North Dakota because it is more well known.

The bottom line with regards to Wisconsin's performance is they shot poorly. The first line talks about UW not overcoming shooting woes. A complete game needs to be played. You can't overcome 22% shooting while the other team scores 50% and expect to win. That article really doesn't talk the defense of NDSU. Its also a routine article that you find on any athletic site for a college sports program. They would have an article there if they had won. Its not a national press.

Again, it is a great win for the school. But this was a day, in which NDSU brought its "A game" and Wisconsin brought its "D game". In order to bring an "A game" you need to play it for 40 minutes, not for 5 minutes. Wisconsin played a "D game for 35 minutes", and a B game for 5 minutes and came up a little short. If they played a B game or a C game all game long they would have won. Its one of Wisconsins 5 games below their potential and one of NDSU's games above their potential. It doesn't define either team's whole season.

Among all 6 of those UBC markets, they would be ranked this way:

1. NJIT (New York City-Newark, NY-NJ-CT-PA MSA, with competition with Seaton Hall, Rutgers, Fairleigh Dixckinson, St. Johns, Fordham, ND, and many other New Jersey and New York City schools) 21 million
2. IPFW (Ft. Wayne, IN MSA and NE Indiana, with competition with IU, PU and ND) 1.2 million
3. UTPA (McAllen-Pharr-Edinburg MSA + Brownsville MSA = 900K with competition with UT, and A & M)
4. SDSU (Statewide South Dakota Market with competition with USD, Minnesota, Nebraska, Wyoming, Iowa, and Iowa State = 775K)
5. NDSU (Statewide North Dakota Market = 634K) with competition with UND and U Minnesota)
6. UVSC (Provo-Orem MSA with competition with BYU and Utah and perhaps USU and Weber State = 400K)

NDSU has the 5th largest market of these schools. As far as market competition for a Mid Con spot, it is below IPFW and about the same as SDSU. It only exceeds UVSC in market size. NDSU's market size, located in the 48th most populated state, is one of the smallest in college sports.

Basketball is not the top college sport. Football is the top college sport. UND can be found on Fox College Sports Central and Atlantic channels as well as CSTV on Friday and Saturday Night Hockey games. I have yet to see NDSU on TV for a sporting event.


Last edited by metropolitan on Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:23 pm 
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Success and RPI can take a team a lot farther then market can and this win could be a huge thing for both. Market and location to an extent is really all the schools have on NDSU. NDSU probably outweighs them in all other areas facilities, support(both fans and financial), academics(tie with SDSU), tradition, and none besides SDSU have the title of being a landgrant flag ship school. All those other schools get lost in the mix with other major college and pro sports teams, NDSU/SDSU do not.

Also this win may play a factor in games that get televised next year because to an extent NDSU has put their program on the map. I'm not saying they are going to be on ESPN any time but they will definately be getting more games televised. This year the only TV games were NDSU- Minnesota(Fox Sports North) and NDSU-Montana St football (regional ND, MT, and parts of SD, and MN). Last year NDSU vs Northern Colorado football was on Fox Sports North and Fox Sports Rocky Mountain. Both the Fox Sports networks are available to people who have the Sports pack on Direct Tv but I'm not sure about Fox College Sports(I think NDSU vs UNC was aired there as well but I'm not sure)

There were over 126 IAA football games broadcast on networks like FSN and really IAA football gets the same kind of coverage that NCAA hockey gets so if NDSU can build up a IAA football program like UND's DI hockey program look for NDSU to get just as much coverage. I think NDSU is well on their way to becoming a IAA football power, the SIU coach called NDSU the next Montana.




Last edited by fargobison on Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:53 pm 
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The RPI needs to be for more than one season. Again, it is a great win. But a win does not make a program. The University of Alaska at Anchorage, a Division II team, has upset on more than one occaision, teams that have played in the Great Alaska Shootout. These have included ranked teams. They still are forgotten on a national level, and only people talk about them if they watch the Great Alaska Shootout. Chaminade, in Hawaii, has also upset some teams in a holiday classic a number of years back. They are not discussed or still hardly even known and are forgotten for the most part. There have been numerous upsets in the NCAA tourney on the level of 13, 14 and 15 seeds, and those teams do get forgotten. Unless you are a Gonzaga, Valparasio, or a College of Charleston, and win a number of games after you make an upset in the NCAA tourney, you easily get forgotten on the lower end of D I. Its possible that NDSU could follow in these same paths. However, this is one game, and NDSU will need to do more over time to establish a name that you are describing. You need a watershed era, or even a watershed season. This is not that, at least yet. One game is not a be all of end all to describe who you are. Its a great game and congratulations. But more would need to be done. NDSU is a long ways to reach the name status as UND Hockey. Until I hear someone talk about NDSU on a consistent basis in Ann Arbor, MI, it will not be at that status. Even after losing to them, in Madison, WI they are confused, and stated "North Dakota" instead of North Dakota State. The only reason I know of NDSU, is because I used to live in the Omaha Television market and they showed highlights of UNO and their opponents in the NCC. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't know about them. Its going to take a lot more to make more of a name for NDSU from its obscurity.

As far as facilities, IPFW has a better basketball facility than NDSU. They may have a better football facility, perhaps one of the better facilities in I-AA, but the Mid Con doesn't play football. As far as landgrants/flagship status, SDSU has a slightly better academic reputation than NDSU. Both of these schools are on the bottom of the list of flagship/landgrants in academic reputation. When you discuss them with the level of any school from these ranks, like Mississippi State, West Virginia University, University of New Hampshire, University of Maine, Montana State, University of Wyoming, University of Delaware, New Mexico State, Utah State, all these land grants exceed NDSU. All except Montana State exceed SDSU too. The only school among land grants that NDSU exceeds academically is perhaps the University of Alaska at Fairbanks.

NJIT, among all these United Basketball Conference members, have a higher Academic rep, save SDSU. There are a number of metro/urban based schools and/or regional (within a state) universities that have a higher academic rep as well. NJIT is one of these. Some metro/urban based schools and regional (normal schools) in other states do exceed some land grants and flagships. A land grant-flagship status doesn't necessarily mean you are equated with Cal Berkeley, Michigan State, Nebraska, Georgia, or even the University of Wyoming. Since NDSU is on the bottom of the list, NJIT is one such example where a metro based, Georgia Tech-like school exceeds a land grant flagship. Michigan Tech is another example of where a non-flagship exceeds both NDSU and SDSU in academics.

They don't get lost in mix enough when compared to the very low population of the State of North Dakota and the fact that ND has two flagships with nearly equal following and the University of Minnesota with following. Ft. Wayne has hardly any minor league pro teams, and no other university located in the metro area that has major sports. Its market is bigger and has had some decent attendance on the level of NDSU, and even SDSU this year.


Last edited by metropolitan on Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:06 pm 
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Youve got it pegged FargoBison. Most excellent analysis.

The development of the current market to date is the strongest argument in its favor. the fans are responding and the support level is there. The market is supporting a Division I NDSU at a level that obviously makes it competitive with the Mid-Con, BSC, GWFC and UBC.

Its difficult for me to find fault with the success so far. As you have pointed out there are new frontiers we are ready to move into to. The broad view can be justifiably critical but ignores what is happening.


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