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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 4:42 pm 
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Don't these two rival schools really belong with one another? Should they or shouldn't they really be playing each other every year? Do they or don't they really belong with one another, in perpetuity? All North Dakotans and non-North Dakotans please feel free to answer the poll and contribute your thoughts on this interesting question.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:23 pm 
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The rivalry reminds me a lot of how UGa vs Tech was back in the old days. Give the teams some time to blow some steam off, and the series will probably be renewed again. I sure wish Ga. Southern would move up, so Troy could renew that old rivalry.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:27 pm 
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The next best thing will happen when GSU hosts the BISON this fall. Thats a big game. Lots of talk about it on the the BISON BB broadcast tonight.



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:55 am 
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Not unless they are in the same division. Otherwise NDSU has everything to lose and ND nothing to lose.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:48 am 
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Whether the BSC-12 concept or a Mid Con-12 concept (and/or post BE Split and/or MWC WAC raid domino effect) just by shear proximity of 75 miles, it would almost be impossible for UND and NDSU not to end up in the very same division.

One of the most likely and apparant possible benefits for both UND and NDSU is a uptick in attendance for both schools, as well as interest. The agglomeration effect is likely to kick in here under this scenario, therefore benefiting all involved with a UND/NDSU conference alignment.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:02 pm 
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This isn't the case for Michigan and Eastern Michigan.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:08 pm 
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Way different analogy tman.

U of M and MSU are about equal in following and market.

NDSU and UND are about equal in following and market, in comparison.

U of M and EMU are different in following. U of M has the highest attendance and EMU has the lowest attendance in all of I-A. Really bad comparison.

However, UND and NDSU have much closer following and market. A better analogy is a case for Oklahoma State to join the Big 7 in 1958 to make it the Big 8 and join their OU in-state joint statewide brethern. They both benefit from playing each other every year.

Similarly, its also similar to the Big 9 inviting Michigan State College in the early 1950's to make the Big 10, even with U of Michigan's desire to keep them out. They both benefit from playing each other every year.

Its also similar to Boise State voting to invite U of Idaho. Many of the ticket holders at the BSU stadium are UI fans wanting to see when UI plays BSU IIRC from what Pounder has mentioned.

So not a really appropriate analogy, tman at all.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:36 pm 
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Bring back the rivalry, and all will be fne with the schools.

_________________
Do you ahhhhh......realign?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:03 pm 
GophersRawk, maybe you want to identify that pic as Bubbles, Buttercup, or Blossom (one of the Powerpuff Girls). If not, someone is bound to think it is Lashette.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 4:00 pm 
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GophersRawk, maybe you want to identify that pic as Bubbles, Buttercup, or Blossom (one of the Powerpuff Girls). If not, someone is bound to think it is Lashette.


Tou-freaking-che! Much better than what I was going to come up with!

I was someone who thought I was hip and followed obscure music and the like... now I'm a father, meaning the closest I get to "hip" is to know exactly who that is. My daughter, however, is gaining a Buttercup streak.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:04 am 
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It all starts with football - the other sports will follow that lead eventually.

I couldn't answer the poll question because while I think NDSU and UND should play, there'd have to be conditions. First, the game would have to be at NDSU. Second, the coaches would have to be allowed to make the final decision.

The game has to be in Fargo because while a guaranteed sellout would be nice, NDSU's attendance has been increasing every year since UND began their boycott (up 40% since the last home game against UND). I would like to wait a couple years to see if that trend continues. This would also give the SDSU rivalry a chance to get grow a bit more.

The coaches have to get veto power because we are already asking a lot of them. We can't just throw them into a no-win situation.

The rivalry will start again someday, it's just a matter of when. For reference, the last time UND boycotted NDSU, four years passed before there was another game. There are a lot more variables this time around though - the game might start next year, might take ten more years, but it'll resume.

Sure don't see what this has to do with conference realignment though.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 11:27 am 
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Quote:


I couldn't answer the poll question because while I think NDSU and UND should play, there'd have to be conditions. First, the game would have to be at NDSU. Second, the coaches would have to be allowed to make the final decision.


The game wouldn't need to have conditions other than just to play every year, home and home series as it used to be.


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The game has to be in Fargo because while a guaranteed sellout would be nice, NDSU's attendance has been increasing every year since UND began their boycott (up 40% since the last home game against UND).


While NDSU's attendance has been slightly increasing, it isn't that much more than UND's. The two schools are only 75 miles apart. Both the Fargodome and the Alerus Center would easily fill up, so they could play a home and home series. If both end up in the very same conference some day down the road, a home and home annual series would be the norm of what conferences do with their members. There is no need for such arbitrarian conditions in such a case.

And also, I never heard anything about a boycott by UND. This would go away, if it it actually exists if they are in the very same conference some day.



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I would like to wait a couple years to see if that trend continues. This would also give the SDSU rivalry a chance to get grow a bit more.


Yes, and if all three schools end up in the same conference then all three can be rivals again.


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The coaches have to get veto power because we are already asking a lot of them. We can't just throw them into a no-win situation.


What kind of disadvantage is it for the coaches of NDSU and UND if both schools play each other? Could you explain? An oponent is an oponent. Its their job to get their student athletes ready for any and all games no matter who the opponent is.


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The rivalry will start again someday, it's just a matter of when. For reference, the last time UND boycotted NDSU, four years passed before there was another game. There are a lot more variables this time around though - the game might start next year, might take ten more years, but it'll resume.


Do you have any sources on both past and present boycotts of UND for NDSU? It would be interesting to see their "official boycotts".


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Sure don't see what this has to do with conference realignment though.


Well, if UND and NDSU end in the same conference, it has everything to do with conference realignment. The Big Sky needs a third team if it goes the NDSU and SDSU route. SUU is possible, but have been cited as not good enough academics for the Big Sky. Cal Davis and Cal Poly like being in the Big West for other sports. UVSC and Denver don't play football. U San Diego doesn't have schollies, although they could provide schollies, it is quite possible that it is unlikely. That leaves only D II move ups with some relatively good academics. Which teams west of the Mississippi are talking about moving up to D I-AA? UND and not much rumbling everywhere else. So they relate to BSC realignment very much so. If not in the immediate future, then some time down the line.

They also relate to the Mid Con alignment, as the Midcon, like all confererence East of the Mississippi could be targeted for candidates to fill the ranks of other conferences if a domino effect takes place due to a Big East breakup. The Mid Con could lose up to 6 teams if this happened. If UND moves up within the next 5 year to 10 years, they could be a replacement team for the Mid Con after the raid/domino effect takes place. So, again it has everything to do with conference realignment.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:44 pm 
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Sheesh, metropolitan. It sounds like you were really asking, "If UND and NDSU are in the same conference, should they play every year?" Way to go! You got me! If NDSU and UND are in the same conference, they will play each other. There is no "should" involved. ::)

You asked for opinions and I gave mine based on the current situation. Take it or leave it. Changing the question, demanding documentation on UND's boycott, calling NDSU's 40% attendance increase slight, and saying that UND's and NDSU's atttendance are the same - none of that has any bearing on the situation... so why did you bring them up? Hmmm.

When dealing with pendantic passive aggressives, sometimes asking direct questions help?

1. Why demand documention of UND's boycott?
2. Why call NDSU's 40% increase in attendance in three years slight?
3. Why even bring up UND's attendance?

A game with UND is a no-win for perfectly obvious reasons. NDSU is DI and UND is DII. You don't get into the playoffs by playing DII teams - it doesn't matter what their attendance is. That's why I said the game should be at NDSU.


Last edited by bisondefender on Wed Feb 15, 2006 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 3:26 pm 
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Sheesh, metropolitan. It sounds like you were really asking, "If UND and NDSU are in the same conference, should they play every year?" Way to go! You got me! If NDSU and UND are in the same conference, they will play each other. There is no "should" involved. ::)


The question is not that specific, but it doesn't exclude that situation.


Quote:
You asked for opinions and I gave mine based on the current situation. Take it or leave it. Changing the question, demanding documentation on UND's boycott, calling NDSU's 40% attendance increase slight, and saying that UND's and NDSU's atttendance are the same - none of that has any bearing on the situation... so why did you bring them up? Hmmm.


I didn't change the question. I have never seen or heard of an actual official boycott of UND with NDSU. You made the statement, and I asked for a qualification. This is not only just one question, but like all other threads, its a discussion. If there is an official boycott, then that would certainly be a constraint. But I have never seen any reference or a mention of an official boycott by UND of NDSU before. If there is certainly such a thing, it would be cool to see a reference to it. A lot of times people make a statement and claim it exists, and then don't show a reference to it, and then people will then question what they mean. It happens a lot on any forum you go to, including here. So I am just wondering about where I could read or find out more about this official boycott by UND of NDSU. Do you have some literature on the subject?


Quote:
When dealing with pendantic passive aggressives, sometimes asking direct questions help?

1. Why demand documention of UND's boycott?
2. Why call NDSU's 40% increase in attendance in three years slight?
3. Why even bring up UND's attendance?


All of these are direct questions. I asked about whether they should play each other every year, and then asked what people's opinion of the matter were. I also provided my own. I think that is fair. It is a forum after all. I would like to read more about the official UND boycott, because I have never seen a reference or a mention of such a thing ever, and just wanted to understand it and have clarification of it. If one makes something exists, then requesting that it does is not an outlandish request. If you don't want to provide any reference that is fine. But it would be hard to believe usually. Some times one may believe something is the case, when it is something different. I just want to understand for myself. If you don't have literature, then it is difficult for me to understand and believe.


Quote:
A game with UND is a no-win for perfectly obvious reasons. NDSU is DI and UND is DII. You don't get into the playoffs by playing DII teams - it doesn't matter what their attendance is. That's why I said the game should be at NDSU.


It would be a win in the possibility that it could increase attendance for both NDSU and UND. Regional and intense rivalries usually do that. There are many teams that play each other that have 40% difference in attendance, but still do a home and home series. What we are talking about here is a D-I-AA program and a D II program. Both are in the upper levels of attendance in those two divisions. UND averages a higher attendance than almost 60% of all of D - I-AA schools and would be in the upper echelons of I-AA in attendance. D-I-AA and D II on the upper levels are not much difference in attendance. Its not the same relationship as a low level I-A Sun Belt team or a MAC team playing a BCS school. NDSU doesn't have that kind of superior attendance levels over UND. Relatively speaking were talking 5,000 fans, which is not much, despite a percentage difference, in actual numbers. So playing a home and home series makes sense for these two schools if they played on a regular basis. A 5,000 difference in attendance between I-AA and II, especially when UND averages more than most of NDSU current I-AA opponents. Such an argument seems to be arbitrary for not having a home and home series.

If UND moves up, these two schools will in almost all probability be playing again on a regular basis.

This question has not been constrained only by what is the current situation, but what could be likely in the future. I was not that specific in my question and had no intention of being that specific.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 8:31 pm 
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Metro, you keep harping on UND's 9,000 per game average attendance like that should be attractive to NDSU, but it isn't. In DI-AA football, wins against DII schools don't count towards the minimum you need to get into the playoffs nor do they impress pollsters one bit. That is a perfect example of a "no-win" situation. Decent DI-AA programs schedule DII teams for one reason: To get home games. By doing a home-and-home NDSU would, in all likelihood, be losing a home game every other year which would mean that total attendance would fall even if average attendance grew by 100-400 per game (which is about the best we could hope for).

The game will start up again but I don't see any reason for it to happen while it would hurt either NDSU or UND. A home-and-home with UND, as things stand, could only hurt NDSU. Even UND administrators and coaches realize that and that's why they suggested playing at a neutral site (the Metrodome). Speaking of the Metrodome, if NDSU wanted to play in front of a big crowd in the area, they'd be playing the Gophers there in 2006 instead of just in 2007. That would be a big crowd and the Bison would get a check for 350,000 dollars.




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