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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:42 pm 
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I was reading an article U of Montana AD Jim O'Day put out that was essentially telling it's fan base to chill out and accept that they have a I-AA power and forget about jumping to I-A. It said, in a nutshell, "we make a ton of money, pulling in almost half ($5.1M)of our athletic budget ($11 M) from football revenue. That is almost unheard of in Div I-AA and puts us in the top 2 most profitable programs in Div I-AA over the last two years. In the FBS ---- we might be Idaho --- and you don't want to be Idaho, do you?"

Anyway this part really peaked my interest.

"...With its inclusion, Western Kentucky will be the 120th school at the FBS level. That number will remain the same for a few more years because in August, the NCAA Division I Board of Directors put a four-year moratorium on any similar moves, citing a need to re-evaluate criteria for maintaining membership at the I-A membership level. <b>However, the 20 schools that have already begun the lengthy process to become a FBS member</b> will be allowed to proceed. Neither Montana nor Montana State is one of those 20 schools..."

20 schools? What 20 schools? I know UTSA is probably one. Texas State MAY be another... beyond that?


http://wpe1.montanagrizzlies.com/fmi/xsl/mt_griz/db/news/xsl/news_item.xsl?-db=mtgriz_content&-lay=content_news_detail&id_news=21945&record_type=DB&-token.1=21945&-max=1&-find


Last edited by finiteman on Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:44 pm 
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OK, so we know that both UTSA and Texas State have paid consultants to prepare a plan for moving up to FBS, so it seems likely both would have been aware of the impending moritorium and have applied in advance of that.

Old Dominion is moving to I-AA, is it possible they might have applied for I-A in case their final decision was to jump to a higher level if things go well in FCS? I'd hope so. That school is a slumbering giant, IMO. (well, maybe Giant is too strong, but a very natural FBS IMO.)

17 or 18 to go...


Last edited by finiteman on Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:19 pm 
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I've seen on this board that Georgia State is looking to add football, so it's possible they beat the deadline to apply for FBS as well. They seem like a natural fit for Sun Belt/C-USA, and would likely play in the Georgia Dome.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:53 pm 
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No Montana Schools or THOSE Texas Schools applied in time.

The list includes 20 schools that applied to begin transition, or are in the midst of transition.

ODU, Georgia State are 1-AA (now 1 - FCS), they are merely
adding football programs, they are not jumping divisions / sub-divisions.

I'll see if I can come up with the 20....

NDSU (to Mid-con / Gateway)
SDSU (ditto)
NDU (to D-I indep., talking to Mid-con / Great West FB)
SDU (ditto)
SIU-E (to D-I indep., talking to Ohio Valley and others)
Seattle (to D-I indep., rejected by WCC earlier this year)
Oklahoma City College (to D-I indep.)
Houston Baptist (to D-I indep.)
Bryant (joining NEC)
New Haven (to D-I indep.)
Cal-State Bakersfield (to D-I indep., talking to Big West)
Presbyterian (joining Big South)
South Carolina - Upstate (joining Atlantic Sun)
Kennesaw State (joining Atlantic Sun)
North Florida (joining Atlantic Sun)
Florida Gulf Coast (joining Atlantic Sun)
North Carolina Central (to D-I indep., talking to MEAC)
Central Arkansas (joining Southland)

That's 18 and I think the following 2 were in the final stages of transition when the moratorium hit.

Western Kentucky (already member of D-I Sun-Belt, upgrading their FB from FCS (Gateway) to FBS (Sun-Belt) in 2008.

UCDavis (I think now an official member of the Big West, and Great West FB, they finally completed the jump from D-II).


That's my 20. If you wondered what has transpired officially reagrading a specific school that you are interested in, I suggest googling that school along with "conference affiliation", or "NCAA upgrade" and you should come up with various articles on the topic.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:26 pm 
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I appreciate the effort you put together to make this list, but I am not sure if those are the right schools.

In the letter, the AD of Montana (clearly someone who would understand the terminology) said, "...However, the 20 schools that have already begun the lengthy process to become a FBS member will be allowed to proceed. "

Not they have applied to move up to "Div I" (which only means that they are sponsoring x numbers of sports and meeting certain requirments. Div I includes schools in the FCS subdivision ---formerly known as IAA--- where they have fewer scholarships for football and a playoff instead of bowls, Div IAAA --where they have a Div I March Madness eligible basketball team but no football, and the FBS subdivision --- formerly known as Division IA --- the top tier of college football with their 85 scholarship limites, 15K attendance limits.), but that they have applied to be FBS schools in Div I!!!! That is what is so shocking about this letter.


Last edited by finiteman on Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:12 pm 
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well, I stand corrected. Someone has put together a list and the Montana AD misspoke. Here is the list put together/ reported by someone named ACEINTHEHOLE at http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27565&page=2

"This is the list of schools that who slipped in past the moratorium and are officially reclassifing from D-II to D-I the 2007-08 season:

Exploratory Year - eligible for D-II championships
1. Bryant
2. Houston Baptist* (7-year transition from NAIA)
3. New Haven
4. North Dakota
5. Seattle
6. South Dakota
7. SIU-Edwardsville

Transition Year 1 - does not count as D-I for RPI purposes
8. Florida Gulf Coast (Atlantic Sun)
9. North Carolina Central (MEAC in 2008-09)
10. Presbyterian (Big South in 2008-09)
11. South Carolina Upstate (Atlantic Sun)

Transition Year 2 - must meet all D-I scheduling requirements and counts for D-I RPI purposes
12. Cal-Bakersfield (Independent)
13. Central Arkansas (Southland)
14. Winston-Salem State (MEAC)

Transition Year 3
15. Kennesaw State (Atlantic Sun)
16. New Jersey Tech (Independent)
17. North Florida (Atlantic Sun)
18. Utah Valley State (Independent)

Transition Year 4
19. North Dakota State (Summit League)
20. South Dakota State (Summit League)"


Last edited by finiteman on Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:53 am 
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There you go. That list looks correct.

So the moratorium applies to both:
1) Movement of schools from NAIA & Lower NCAA Divisions (II and III) into Division I (any fottball subdivsion (namely FBS = formerly I-A, FCS = formerly I-AA, and No Football)
2) Movement of schools between conferences, if the school plays football, and one conference is Div. I-FCS, and the other conference is Div. I-FBS.

At one time there was a reference "Div. I-AAA". I'm not sure if that referred to conferences that did not sponsor football or what. I think that has gone by the way-side, along with the references to I-A and I-AA.

So now Div. I includes 31 conferences...

11 are Football Bowl Subdivision, and I think the football scholarsip limit is 85.

Then there are 20 other conferences that:
1) 11 sponsor Football Champioinship Subdivision football under the name of the conference
(Big Sky, Southland, SWAC, OVC, SoCon, Big South, CAA, MEAC, NEC, Patriot, Ivy)
2) 9 do not sponsor football directly under the conference name
(WCC, Big West, Summit, MVC, Horizon, A-10, A-Sun, American East, MAAC)
Here I make an assumption that MAAC football is kaput, having dwindled to 2 members, with an announcement imminent.

There are 3 FCS football leagues indirectly sponsored by conference offices:
The MVC sponsors the Gateway League (perhaps soon to be re-labelled as MVC Football),
the MVC also sponsors the Pioneer League
and the Summit sponsors the Great West.

Here's the next complication....
Of the FCS football conference, MOST compete by issuing scholarships up to the FCS scholarship limit.... (63 ?)...
1) Big Sky, Southland, SWAC, OVC, SoCon, Big South, CAA, MEAC, Gateway, Great West
The SWAC chooses to have a Championship game, therefore they choose to be ineligible for the FCS Championship.
2) The Ivy League and Patriot League give no official athletic scholarships, but do give "need-based scholarship money". The NCAA has told them to convert this $$$ value to scholarship equivalents, which must be below 63, or they are not then FCS eligible. Those conferences play each other in the bulk of the OOC games. The Ivy League has a self-imposed ban on participating in the FCS Championship (I don't know the story behind this, but it sure reeks of snootiness). The Patriot has no such ban.

The NEC has a self-imposed limit of around 45 football scholarships. They appear to be slowly transitioning to 63 and main-stream FCS.

The Pioneer has a self-imposed limit of ZERO (0) football scholarships (so did the MAAC, before it apparently withered and died).

Because the NEC and Pioneer have hamstrung themselves competitively with their lower scholarship limit, they would only earn an at-large invitation to the FCS tourney bracket when all the stars align. In view of this, their champs play each other in a "Gridiron Classic".
If the NEC becomes more competitive (the NEC Champ is slated to get an Automatic Qualified entry to the FCS Champioinships), they will likely drop out of the Gridiron Classic, and the Pioneer may use that "bowl' as the Championshp game for their conference, assuming that it expands and goes to a 2-division format.... we should hear soon regarding that.


So the Montana AD mis-spoke. You would NOT BELIEVE the number of college presidents, A.D.'s, coaches, and sportswriters that are confused about the whole I-A/I-AA FBS/FCS thing.... this terminology thing came about because so many people perceive that I-A and I-AA apply to the entire school's athletic status. WRONG - it has only ever been a football thing !!! I-A & I-AA & I-AAA (or FBS & FCS) are just plain Division I for all sports other than football.


Iwn








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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:17 am 
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We don't need that lot moving into IA.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:57 pm 
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Here's what O'Day's REALLY saying:

"We know dang good and well we can walk into the WAC or MWC conference and be an upper-tier program in football and probably an elite in basketball in either conference. But the Bobcat fans will throw a fit and screw over our budget unless we bring them along, and then we're going to have to listen to them whine even more because they WILL turn into Idaho Part II."

O'Day isn't stupid, he knows darn well UMt is on a totally different level than Idaho. In fact, UMt's I-AA championship was reason 1B for UI moving up, since despite their successat the I-AA level they've never won the championship, so they needed something to trump their archrivals, and Boise State's move up was a convenient thumb to the nose. Anyone with an iota of knowledge of academia in Montana knows that the only reason they don't move up is because MSU will block it unless it gets to go along, even though thier facilities and program are severely lacking for a move to I-A.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:10 pm 
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Quote:
We don't need that lot moving into IA.


I wouldn't say that... you give a lot of these I-AA schools their full 85 instead of of the I-AA allotment of 63 or so and they'd rip a lot of these BCS teams a good one.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:39 am 
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Quote:

Quote:
We don't need that lot moving into IA.


I wouldn't say that... you give a lot of these I-AA schools their full 85 instead of of the I-AA allotment of 63 or so and they'd rip a lot of these BCS teams a good one.


My 2 cents is that you are both right. Any school with 85 scholarships might rout the Baylors and Dukes of the BCS worlds on a fairly regular basis, but looking over this list, I hope all of these schools are reclassifying as IAA (FCS) or IAAA (Div I non-football) schools.

Even the Dakotas--- inspite of their football excellence--- would be hard pressed to make a good financial showing in IA, but in IAA they could be as profitable as Montana. About 1/3 of the list are very strong IAA candidates IMO.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:56 am 
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Quote:
Here's what O'Day's REALLY saying:

"We know dang good and well we can walk into the WAC or MWC conference and be an upper-tier program in football and probably an elite in basketball in either conference. But the Bobcat fans will throw a fit and screw over our budget unless we bring them along, and then we're going to have to listen to them whine even more because they WILL turn into Idaho Part II."

O'Day isn't stupid, he knows darn well UMt is on a totally different level than Idaho. In fact, UMt's I-AA championship was reason 1B for UI moving up, since despite their successat the I-AA level they've never won the championship, so they needed something to trump their archrivals, and Boise State's move up was a convenient thumb to the nose. Anyone with an iota of knowledge of academia in Montana knows that the only reason they don't move up is because MSU will block it unless it gets to go along, even though thier facilities and program are severely lacking for a move to I-A.


Well I am going to disagree slightly with the details, not the jist. I think Montana wisely realize that they would not be invited to the MWC as things stand today. Their only possible FBS home would be the WAC.

I am not hating at all, but it is basic TV numbers. Montana is the flagship university of the state, the largest university in the state, the most successful football program in the state, and the most successful history in the state. They are probably #1 in all but MSU's home DMA and a close #2 there. They have a statewide following. The problem is they don't have enough TVs in the state. Adding together all of the Markets and REALLY fudging the numbers to include MWC virgin markets that slightly overlap into montana like Rapid City, you are only talking ~400K new TV sets. That isn't going to fast track them into the MWC. Additionally their school is considered a Tier 3 National University. If Montana could get their academics up to tier 2 caliber, they'd have a pretty good chance, but as a tier 3, adding them doesn't get them closer to BCS inclusion and the TV households would not allow them to recoup the money lost in adding them.


Last edited by finiteman on Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:27 am 
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Quote:
...Here's the next complication....
Of the FCS football conference, MOST compete by issuing scholarships up to the FCS scholarship limit.... (63 ?)...
2) The Ivy League and Patriot League give no official athletic scholarships, but do give "need-based scholarship money". The NCAA has told them to convert this $$$ value to scholarship equivalents, which must be below 63, or they are not then FCS eligible. Those conferences play each other in the bulk of the OOC games. The Ivy League has a self-imposed ban on participating in the FCS Championship (I don't know the story behind this, but it sure reeks of snootiness). The Patriot has no such ban.

The NEC has a self-imposed limit of around 45 football scholarships. They appear to be slowly transitioning to 63 and main-stream FCS.

The Pioneer has a self-imposed limit of ZERO (0) football scholarships (so did the MAAC, before it apparently withered and died).

Because the NEC and Pioneer have hamstrung themselves competitively with their lower scholarship limit, they would only earn an at-large invitation to the FCS tourney bracket when all the stars align. In view of this, their champs play each other in a "Gridiron Classic.


I have said it before in a different thread and I'll say it again. I think the NCAA should divide the FCS into FCS and IAA.

FCS Schools would:
give up to 63 scholarships
Be able to play FBS schools in the highly profitable "bodybag" games to help cover the scholarships.
Be able to play IAA schools.
Be able to play in the FCS playoffs.
Have to draw a financially healthy average number of fans over a 3 year period (say over 6K per game) to stay at FCS levels and a maintain an average enrollment that would cover shortfalls if required (say over 7K).
Have to draw a financially healthy average number of fans over a 3 year period to move up to FBS (say 25K) and a maintain an average enrollment that would cover shortfalls if required (say over 12K).

IAA Schools would:
give 0 to 30 football scholarships --- effectively allowing them to run non-scholarship football programs and eliminating a huge chunk of the title IX matching scholarship expenses --- but would still have to meet IA scholarship requirements in the minimum # of sports for Division I.
Be able to play FCS schools.
Be able to play II schools.
Be able to play in the FCS playoffs, if they qualify.
Have to draw a financially healthy average number of fans over a 3 year period (say over 4K per game) to stay at IAA level and a maintain an average enrollment that would cover shortfalls if required (say over 4K).
Have to draw a financially healthy average number of fans over a 3 year period (say over 8K per game) to move up to FCS levels and a maintain an average enrollment that would cover shortfalls if required (say over 7K).

(IAA in the proposal potentially encompasses the Ivy League, Patriot League, and Pioneer league, and would likely attract other current FCS leagues if implimented.)


And on down the list.

If they NCAA wants to stop ill-conceived jumps to IA, they need to fix FCS so it is regularly profitable for the universities competing at that level.



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:55 am 
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Quote:

Quote:
Here's what O'Day's REALLY saying:

"We know dang good and well we can walk into the WAC or MWC conference and be an upper-tier program in football and probably an elite in basketball in either conference. But the Bobcat fans will throw a fit and screw over our budget unless we bring them along, and then we're going to have to listen to them whine even more because they WILL turn into Idaho Part II."

O'Day isn't stupid, he knows darn well UMt is on a totally different level than Idaho. In fact, UMt's I-AA championship was reason 1B for UI moving up, since despite their successat the I-AA level they've never won the championship, so they needed something to trump their archrivals, and Boise State's move up was a convenient thumb to the nose. Anyone with an iota of knowledge of academia in Montana knows that the only reason they don't move up is because MSU will block it unless it gets to go along, even though thier facilities and program are severely lacking for a move to I-A.


Well I am going to disagree slightly with the details, not the jist. I think Montana wisely realize that they would not be invited to the MWC as things stand today. Their only possible FBS home would be the WAC.

I am not hating at all, but it is basic TV numbers. Montana is the flagship university of the state, the largest university in the state, the most successful football program in the state, and the most successful history in the state. They are probably #1 in all but MSU's home DMA and a close #2 there. They have a statewide following. The problem is they don't have enough TVs in the state. Adding together all of the Markets and REALLY fudging the numbers to include MWC virgin markets that slightly overlap into montana like Rapid City, you are only talking ~400K new TV sets. That isn't going to fast track them into the MWC. Additionally their school is considered a Tier 3 National University. If Montana could get their academics up to tier 2 caliber, they'd have a pretty good chance, but as a tier 3, adding them doesn't get them closer to BCS inclusion and the TV households would not allow them to recoup the money lost in adding them.


Well, with the Mountain West, while they might not take Montana right away, but they would be fast-tracked into the MWC within 5 years. The academics are there, US News' rankings amount to squat in overall academic prestige because their numbers only have to do with incoming freshman test scores and NOT the actual academics of the program. Academics-wise they're better than Wyoming and on the level of SDSU, UNLV, and New Mexico. Plus you add in that the main money sports (football, basketball, and women's basketball) are at a competitive level, and being a one-time Pac-10 member, and they're definitely going to catch the MWC's eye, much moreso than any other schools in the WAC outside of Boise. Plus UM also travels extremely well, and there would be some good-sized away contingents willing to make the trip to Utah, BYU, Wyoming, and Colorado State (the latter two being a much closer trip than Missoula for a lot of people in the Southeast).

And actually I think your fudging is a bit off, considering the state is over a million people now, plus you add in bars and restaurants that have TV sets tuned to the game, and you're looking at 500-600k. Considering the general devotion of the state to Montana football, you're probably going to draw in as many people watching the game as you would in Fresno.


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