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 Post subject: Re: Big West realignment
PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:58 pm 
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Quinn, let me fix that list of yours

1.Hawaii (I hope not, for the love of the WAC. TCU will be gone to the BE soon, maybe the MWC could be offered what the BWC is by Hawaii)
2.CS Bakersfield
3.UC San Diego
4.Sacramento St.

I'm pulling for CSUB. Or go to 12 and add UCSD, CSUB and 1 other.

I also wonder about UOP to the WCC. That was 1 of the 3 options 3 years ago when WCC was looking at expansion. They could add a 10th now. Seattle and UOP seem to be their options.

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 Post subject: Re: Big West realignment
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:27 pm 
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I don't see why Seattle, Denver and Pacific aren't a logical addition to a 12-team WCC.

Seattle and Denver are big markets. Seattle's making it's return to DII, and was 17-14 last year

Stockton doesn't add much in terms of TV; but Pacific brings success.

In the last 7 years, Pacific has three NCAA bids, and they've averaged an 18-11 record over the last 10 years on Selection Sunday. No WCC school besides Gonzaga has more NCAA bids this decade. SMC also has three.

They could get 3-4 bids every year, occasionally five, if they went to 12 with those three.

They'd be like the A-10 of the West. With Gonzaga as Xavier, BYU as Temple, SMC as Dayton and Pacific playing the "URI/Richmond" role.

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 Post subject: Re: Big West realignment
PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:38 pm 
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JPSchmack wrote:
I don't see why Seattle, Denver and Pacific aren't a logical addition to a 12-team WCC.

Seattle and Denver are big markets. Seattle's making it's return to DII, and was 17-14 last year

Stockton doesn't add much in terms of TV; but Pacific brings success.

In the last 7 years, Pacific has three NCAA bids, and they've averaged an 18-11 record over the last 10 years on Selection Sunday. No WCC school besides Gonzaga has more NCAA bids this decade. SMC also has three.

They could get 3-4 bids every year, occasionally five, if they went to 12 with those three.

They'd be like the A-10 of the West. With Gonzaga as Xavier, BYU as Temple, SMC as Dayton and Pacific playing the "URI/Richmond" role.


adding denver seattle and pacific would hurt the conference rpi in basketball, which would hurt the chances of at large bids, which would hurt the conference profile, which would hurt the tv contract with espn. why split something 12 ways when you can split in 9. byu can pull their own weight financially and on the court so they are in. denver, seattle, and pacific not so


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 Post subject: Re: Big West realignment
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:01 am 
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accseahawk wrote:
JPSchmack wrote:
I don't see why Seattle, Denver and Pacific aren't a logical addition to a 12-team WCC.

Seattle and Denver are big markets. Seattle's making it's return to DII, and was 17-14 last year

Stockton doesn't add much in terms of TV; but Pacific brings success.

In the last 7 years, Pacific has three NCAA bids, and they've averaged an 18-11 record over the last 10 years on Selection Sunday. No WCC school besides Gonzaga has more NCAA bids this decade. SMC also has three.

They could get 3-4 bids every year, occasionally five, if they went to 12 with those three.

They'd be like the A-10 of the West. With Gonzaga as Xavier, BYU as Temple, SMC as Dayton and Pacific playing the "URI/Richmond" role.


adding denver seattle and pacific would hurt the conference rpi in basketball, which would hurt the chances of at large bids, which would hurt the conference profile, which would hurt the tv contract with espn. why split something 12 ways when you can split in 9. byu can pull their own weight financially and on the court so they are in. denver, seattle, and pacific not so



that's irrelevant. The RPI is just math. It's really nothing more than winning non-conference games.
With BYU, Pacific and St. Mary's, maybe Gonzaga doesn't have to play the "Temple-style" schedule that really hurts your RPI.

They're going to take an RPI hit because they added two more conference games with BYU coming in. Everything is 100% dependent on their OCC performance... and oh by the way, Pacific is like 11-5 against the WCC in the last six or seven years.

Pacific is part of the reason the WCC RPI is low.

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 Post subject: Re: Big West realignment
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:24 am 
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Well if UCSD decides to move up the BWC can go to 12 with CSUB and UCSD. If not CSUB needs to hope that the MWC invite becomes a full one in the next few years.

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 Post subject: Re: Big West realignment
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:31 am 
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JPSchmack wrote:
accseahawk wrote:
JPSchmack wrote:
I don't see why Seattle, Denver and Pacific aren't a logical addition to a 12-team WCC.

Seattle and Denver are big markets. Seattle's making it's return to DII, and was 17-14 last year

Stockton doesn't add much in terms of TV; but Pacific brings success.

In the last 7 years, Pacific has three NCAA bids, and they've averaged an 18-11 record over the last 10 years on Selection Sunday. No WCC school besides Gonzaga has more NCAA bids this decade. SMC also has three.

They could get 3-4 bids every year, occasionally five, if they went to 12 with those three.

They'd be like the A-10 of the West. With Gonzaga as Xavier, BYU as Temple, SMC as Dayton and Pacific playing the "URI/Richmond" role.


adding denver seattle and pacific would hurt the conference rpi in basketball, which would hurt the chances of at large bids, which would hurt the conference profile, which would hurt the tv contract with espn. why split something 12 ways when you can split in 9. byu can pull their own weight financially and on the court so they are in. denver, seattle, and pacific not so



that's irrelevant. The RPI is just math. It's really nothing more than winning non-conference games.
With BYU, Pacific and St. Mary's, maybe Gonzaga doesn't have to play the "Temple-style" schedule that really hurts your RPI.

They're going to take an RPI hit because they added two more conference games with BYU coming in. Everything is 100% dependent on their OCC performance... and oh by the way, Pacific is like 11-5 against the WCC in the last six or seven years.

Pacific is part of the reason the WCC RPI is low.


More conference members equals less non conference games for Gonzaga which hurts their RPI and tournament at large profile. BYU helps the WCC profile because they win high profile out of conference games. Pacific (as well as Denver and Seattle) do not pull their own weight like BYU does so they do not get added. BYU makes the WCC more marketable to ESPN and helps the league profile. Pacific (as well as Denver and Seattle) do not do this. WCC does not need to expand and won't unless the perfect school (BYU) comes along


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 Post subject: Re: Big West realignment
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:44 am 
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accseahawk wrote:
JPSchmack wrote:
accseahawk wrote:
JPSchmack wrote:
I don't see why Seattle, Denver and Pacific aren't a logical addition to a 12-team WCC.

Seattle and Denver are big markets. Seattle's making it's return to DII, and was 17-14 last year

Stockton doesn't add much in terms of TV; but Pacific brings success.

In the last 7 years, Pacific has three NCAA bids, and they've averaged an 18-11 record over the last 10 years on Selection Sunday. No WCC school besides Gonzaga has more NCAA bids this decade. SMC also has three.

They could get 3-4 bids every year, occasionally five, if they went to 12 with those three.

They'd be like the A-10 of the West. With Gonzaga as Xavier, BYU as Temple, SMC as Dayton and Pacific playing the "URI/Richmond" role.


adding denver seattle and pacific would hurt the conference rpi in basketball, which would hurt the chances of at large bids, which would hurt the conference profile, which would hurt the tv contract with espn. why split something 12 ways when you can split in 9. byu can pull their own weight financially and on the court so they are in. denver, seattle, and pacific not so



that's irrelevant. The RPI is just math. It's really nothing more than winning non-conference games.
With BYU, Pacific and St. Mary's, maybe Gonzaga doesn't have to play the "Temple-style" schedule that really hurts your RPI.

They're going to take an RPI hit because they added two more conference games with BYU coming in. Everything is 100% dependent on their OCC performance... and oh by the way, Pacific is like 11-5 against the WCC in the last six or seven years.

Pacific is part of the reason the WCC RPI is low.


More conference members equals less non conference games for Gonzaga which hurts their RPI and tournament at large profile. BYU helps the WCC profile because they win high profile out of conference games. Pacific (as well as Denver and Seattle) do not pull their own weight like BYU does so they do not get added. BYU makes the WCC more marketable to ESPN and helps the league profile. Pacific (as well as Denver and Seattle) do not do this. WCC does not need to expand and won't unless the perfect school (BYU) comes along



Excellent points.

The WCC has found a nice grove the past decade with Gonzaga being the major power and an NCAA presence virtually all the time. Schools like St. Marys the past few years have been able to step it up as well, and San Diego before them. With BYU in the mix, the WCC might be able to get 3 schools in every year due to the flexibility of OOC scheduling. Adding Seattle or Pacific might take one of those games off the plate.

On the other side though, adding Seattle or Pacific, etc, could force schools like St. Marys and Gonzaga at the top to have to replace a weaker OOC game with another strong one, which would be a benefit. For example, last year Gonzaga played Miss Valley St. which could have been Seattle or Pacific which are upgrades. This year Gonzaga plays Southern, CSU-Bakersfield, and Lewis & Clark St. Any new WCC school like Denver, Seattle or Pacific would be an upgrade.

so it's a push.

And if it's a push, it comes back to revenue: adding another school means splitting the pot another way. So until the media analysts show that adding Seattle TV sets will make more money, the WCC sees no need to expand with them.

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 Post subject: Re: Big West realignment
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:33 am 
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As previously anticipated and discussed on this board,Hawaii is reportedly joining the MWC for FB and the Big West for it's other sports.Ferd Lewis (previously posted in another thread)from Hawaii weighing in on this story at http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/hawa ... g_WAC.html


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 Post subject: Re: Big West realignment
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:31 am 
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Big West MB thread discussing report that Hawaii will be joining the Big West at http://bigwest.yuku.com/topic/8837/t/Ha ... --MWC.html


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 Post subject: Re: Big West realignment
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:37 am 
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Article out of Long Beach with comments from Big West Commish discussing possible BWC expansion.From this piece,it doesn't sound like there is anything imminent to report,time will tell.Writer lists several "possible" expansion candidates.Link at http://www.presstelegram.com/moresports/ci_16665203


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 Post subject: Re: Big West realignment
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:15 am 
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Ferd Lewis article out of Hawaii with comments from Big West Commish who says that there are apparently two California schools and Hawaii trying to join the Big West this year.He identified one of the other schools as California State Bakersfield.He says applications need to be in by December 1,2010.Unclear when a decision will be made.Link at http://www.staradvertiser.com/sports/sp ... _west.html


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 Post subject: Re: Big West realignment
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:23 am 
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its gotta be either sacramento st or san jose st...i would bet sacramento st is the likely mystery candidate as that would make the big sky's non football numbers more manageable and cut out the costly trip to California for the non revenue sports.


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 Post subject: Re: Big West realignment
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:38 pm 
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accseahawk wrote:
its gotta be either sacramento st or san jose st...i would bet sacramento st is the likely mystery candidate as that would make the big sky's non football numbers more manageable and cut out the costly trip to California for the non revenue sports.


I agree. I guess it all matters how much the Big Sky values recruiting in CA for non-football sports. Because when Cal Poly and UCD game in as football only members, it was a time when the Big Sky wasn't sure about their membership future. Fast forward and they have 2 new schools and montana opted to stay. So management at 10 makes sense...AND you get 3 schools still in CA for football recruiting.

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 Post subject: Re: Big West realignment
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:20 pm 
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Ferd Lewis from Hawaii with update on Big West expansion situation at http://www.staradvertiser.com/sports/sp ... _West.html


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 Post subject: Re: Big West realignment
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:38 pm 
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Quinn wrote:
The WCC has found a nice grove the past decade with Gonzaga being the major power and an NCAA presence virtually all the time. Schools like St. Marys the past few years have been able to step it up as well, and San Diego before them. With BYU in the mix, the WCC might be able to get 3 schools in every year due to the flexibility of OOC scheduling. Adding Seattle or Pacific might take one of those games off the plate.

On the other side though, adding Seattle or Pacific, etc, could force schools like St. Marys and Gonzaga at the top to have to replace a weaker OOC game with another strong one, which would be a benefit. For example, last year Gonzaga played Miss Valley St. which could have been Seattle or Pacific which are upgrades. This year Gonzaga plays Southern, CSU-Bakersfield, and Lewis & Clark St. Any new WCC school like Denver, Seattle or Pacific would be an upgrade.

so it's a push.

And if it's a push, it comes back to revenue: adding another school means splitting the pot another way. So until the media analysts show that adding Seattle TV sets will make more money, the WCC sees no need to expand with them.


Here's my main fundamental disagreement with "Seattle, Denver, Pacific don't get you anything."

First and foremost, from a competitive standpoint, we can throw RPI etc out the window. Your RPI is derived solely from how your conference does OOC.

The reason Gonzaga has to schedule the way they do (like Temple used to) is because the bottom of their conference is weak and doesn't win games. Adding BYU is going to help your RPI as a whole because they bring an average of 10-3 OOC record into WCC play every year.

Pacific is 10-8 vs the WCC in OOC games the last few years. If they join the WCC, they replace those games vs Big West opponents, they are going to bring in a similar OOC record to the WCC SOS every year. Pacific scheduled 14 OOC games last season, and only ONE was a conference below them (Big Sky). Replace their 5-4 vs WCC/WAC teams with 6-2 against BWC teams (against whom they are .750 against) and they are going to bring a 10-4 OOC record into the WCC.

Pacific, BYU, Denver and Seattle, you are basically replacing one game on your schedule vs an RPI killer, with one game against a better team.

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