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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:26 am 
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I have to say that I am a big fan of the Big East going to 12 or 14 members. IMHO St Louis and Dayton should have never been left out in the first place. I also think that expansion will give them a healthier balance between teams that are in the BE because of their television markets (St Johns, Seton Hall, DePaul) and teams that are in the BE because they are capable of making a strong showing in the tournament.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:42 am 
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fighting muskie wrote:
I have to say that I am a big fan of the Big East going to 12 or 14 members. IMHO St Louis and Dayton should have never been left out in the first place. I also think that expansion will give them a healthier balance between teams that are in the BE because of their television markets (St Johns, Seton Hall, DePaul) and teams that are in the BE because they are capable of making a strong showing in the tournament.


I see what you mean. It would be awesome for the new Big East to debut its new season with 12 members (including any of the 2 schools, like St. Louis and Dayton), and eventually planning to get Richmond and VCU in the future. But as of now, it's comfy with 10 so far, just like the "Big 12".

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:51 am 
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I dont see Creighton as a great media "add" to be honest. St. Louis would have been a much larger market, but lets be honest. We are talking about basketball games, so Media cannot be the primary motivator. Basketball is a major player in tournament and March Madness, but regular season basketball games are not the media pull that football regular season games are.

The Big East might have been more honest in keeping the name Catholic in their conference name, but they liked the recognition and the already-bought-and-paid-for image that Big East brings with it.

Richmond is a private school and VCU is a large public school and neither fit the mold for what the new Big East is. I can't imagine them adding those two teams.

Xavier - Jesuit
Creighton - Jesuit
DePaul - Vincentian
Villanova - Augustinian
Seton Hall - Private, Roman Catholic
Marquette - Jesuit
Butler - Private, Disciples of Christ
Georgetown - Jesuit
St: John's - Private, Vincentian
Providence - Private, Dominican

As I understand it, "private" schools have a board of directors, but a school that is just plain "Jesuit" or "Catholic" are under the direct control of the church. I don't see such a heavily Catholic conference adding Richmond (which is Private but Baptist) or VCU which is a state school. St. Louis is a Jesuit school, and Dayton is a Marianist school. They make more sense.

For those who don't know, Jesuit, Vincentian, Augustinian, Marianist, Delasallian schools are all Catholic. A Catholic could likely explain it better, but each of those names are societies of missionaries, as I understand it - each Catholic, but with various ideals and values, and run separately from Dioces. Think of the local catholic schools in your city. Some are run by the local catholic church (dioces) and some bear the name Jesuit or etc, meaning they are run by a separate organization.

All that to say, that I think if this conglomeration of school is going to add schools, St. Louis and Dayton make more sense, followed by other similar schools.

These schools are Jesuit (obviously some of these would never join the Big East): Boston College, Canisius, LeMoyne, Spring HIll, Holy Cross, Creighton, Fairfield, Fordham, Georgetown, Gonzaga, John Carroll, Loyola Marymount, Loyola - Chicago, Loyola - Maryland, Loyola - New Orleans, Marquette, Regis, Rockhurst, St. John's (MN), St. Joseph's, St. Peter's, St. Louis, Santa Clara, Seattle, Wheeling Jesuit, Xavier, Detroit-Mercy. San Francisco and Scranton.

These schools are Marianist: Chaminade (Honolulu), St. Mary's (TX), Dayton.

These schools are Delasallian: St. Mary's (MN), St. Mary's (CA), Christian Brothers (Memphis), LaSalle

These schools are Vincentian: DePaul, Niagara, St. Johns (NY)

These schools are Augustinian: Villanova, Merrimack

These schools are Archdioscene: Holy Cross, Sacred Heart, St. Anselm (NH), Stonehill, Thomas More, Catholic (DC), Mt. St. Mary, Notre Dame, St. Thomas (MN), St. Scholastica, DeSales, Dominican, Duquesne, Fontbonne (MO), Gannon (PA), Ohio Dominican, Quincy (IL), St. Bonaventure, St. Leo, Seton HIll, Siena, Dallas, Portland, San Diego, Incarnate Word, St. Francis (PA), St. Francis (NY).

So of all those, I really only see (based on school size, NCAA Division and geography) that you MIGHT add Canisius, Loyola Maryland, Loyola Chicago, Holy Cross, Fairfield, Fordham, St. Joseph's, St. Peter's, St. Bonaventure, LaSalle, Niagara, Duquesne. And to be honest, I dont think any of those bring what St. Louis and Dayton bring. Unless they could woo Boston College or Notre Dame, I dont see them adding past 12.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:44 am 
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Nice thoughts about the church organization and how that factors into the decisions of the Big "holy" East. What the Big East really needs is two Catholic schools in the east that are good at basketball and bring a new market to the league that can balance out the additions of Midwestern schools Dayton and St Louis. Like Hamburger said VCU isn't catholic and doesn't fit the mold. If VCU wants to upgrade their conference they are going to need to have football. The problem is that Richmond already has a football team and the Spiders aren't just going to suspend their healthy FCS program as long as they have in state rivals in the CAA. Richmond's problem is that as long as they share their market with VCU and both schools are vying to be basketball powers Richmond will always be battling against the resources of a state school that has pockets deeper than their own.

I think that the two eastern schools that could solve the Big East's problem are Siena and Duquesne. Siena is in a smaller market but they have been relatively successful in a weaker league. Duquesne hasn't really been a hoops juggernaut but they bring a nice market into the fold.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:56 am 
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fighting muskie wrote:
Nice thoughts about the church organization and how that factors into the decisions of the Big "holy" East. What the Big East really needs is two Catholic schools in the east that are good at basketball and bring a new market to the league that can balance out the additions of Midwestern schools Dayton and St Louis. Like Hamburger said VCU isn't catholic and doesn't fit the mold. If VCU wants to upgrade their conference they are going to need to have football. The problem is that Richmond already has a football team and the Spiders aren't just going to suspend their healthy FCS program as long as they have in state rivals in the CAA. Richmond's problem is that as long as they share their market with VCU and both schools are vying to be basketball powers Richmond will always be battling against the resources of a state school that has pockets deeper than their own.

I think that the two eastern schools that could solve the Big East's problem are Siena and Duquesne. Siena is in a smaller market but they have been relatively successful in a weaker league. Duquesne hasn't really been a hoops juggernaut but they bring a nice market into the fold.

Butler no longer has any religious affiliations. Try to find any information about it on their website.

They registered with US News and World Report as N/A on Religious Affiliation. They are now just a private secular university like Richmond (who is no longer a Baptisit university).

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandrevie ... rsity-1788

Richmond and St Louis should be the picks. VCU is public and doesn't fit.

Georgetown, Xavier, Creighton, & Marquette - Jesuit
St. John's and DePaul - Vincentian
Villanova - Augustinian
Seton Hall - Roman Catholic
Butler & Richmond - Secular
Providence - Dominican

This way you have 6 in the Northeast (yes Eastern Virginia is now more NorthEast than Southern) and 6 in the Midwest.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:41 pm 
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In my opinion, it wouldn't hurt to have a public school who ain't religiously affiliated like VCU. But it's the quality of the athletic sports the school has. In this case, VCU has made to the NCAA Men's Basketball Final Four a few years back when the Rams were still in the CAA before joining the A-10. I think that the new Big East should expand upto 14 teams and play a 19-game schedule (twice against own-division conference rivals by 6 and once against non-division conference rivals by 7).

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:29 pm 
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I remain torn, as I really think Dayton (my grad school) belongs in the Big East, but my alma mater (St. Bona) has no shot of getting in.

If I had a few billion dollars and my own sports network, I'd offer the Big East way more money than Fox, and swing them towards:
Marquette, DePaul, Xavier, Butler, Creighton, Saint Louis, Dayton, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova, Georgetown, St. Bona, and VCU with a 16-game conference schedule (everyone once, plus three additional).

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:05 am 
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Hamburger wrote:
I dont see Creighton as a great media "add" to be honest. St. Louis would have been a much larger market, but lets be honest. We are talking about basketball games, so Media cannot be the primary motivator. Basketball is a major player in tournament and March Madness, but regular season basketball games are not the media pull that football regular season games are.

The Big East might have been more honest in keeping the name Catholic in their conference name, but they liked the recognition and the already-bought-and-paid-for image that Big East brings with it.

Richmond is a private school and VCU is a large public school and neither fit the mold for what the new Big East is. I can't imagine them adding those two teams.

Xavier - Jesuit
Creighton - Jesuit
DePaul - Vincentian
Villanova - Augustinian
Seton Hall - Private, Roman Catholic
Marquette - Jesuit
Butler - Private, Disciples of Christ
Georgetown - Jesuit
St: John's - Private, Vincentian
Providence - Private, Dominican

As I understand it, "private" schools have a board of directors, but a school that is just plain "Jesuit" or "Catholic" are under the direct control of the church. I don't see such a heavily Catholic conference adding Richmond (which is Private but Baptist) or VCU which is a state school. St. Louis is a Jesuit school, and Dayton is a Marianist school. They make more sense.

For those who don't know, Jesuit, Vincentian, Augustinian, Marianist, Delasallian schools are all Catholic. A Catholic could likely explain it better, but each of those names are societies of missionaries, as I understand it - each Catholic, but with various ideals and values, and run separately from Dioces. Think of the local catholic schools in your city. Some are run by the local catholic church (dioces) and some bear the name Jesuit or etc, meaning they are run by a separate organization.

All that to say, that I think if this conglomeration of school is going to add schools, St. Louis and Dayton make more sense, followed by other similar schools.

These schools are Jesuit (obviously some of these would never join the Big East): Boston College, Canisius, LeMoyne, Spring HIll, Holy Cross, Creighton, Fairfield, Fordham, Georgetown, Gonzaga, John Carroll, Loyola Marymount, Loyola - Chicago, Loyola - Maryland, Loyola - New Orleans, Marquette, Regis, Rockhurst, St. John's (MN), St. Joseph's, St. Peter's, St. Louis, Santa Clara, Seattle, Wheeling Jesuit, Xavier, Detroit-Mercy. San Francisco and Scranton.

These schools are Marianist: Chaminade (Honolulu), St. Mary's (TX), Dayton.

These schools are Delasallian: St. Mary's (MN), St. Mary's (CA), Christian Brothers (Memphis), LaSalle

These schools are Vincentian: DePaul, Niagara, St. Johns (NY)

These schools are Augustinian: Villanova, Merrimack

These schools are Archdioscene: Holy Cross, Sacred Heart, St. Anselm (NH), Stonehill, Thomas More, Catholic (DC), Mt. St. Mary, Notre Dame, St. Thomas (MN), St. Scholastica, DeSales, Dominican, Duquesne, Fontbonne (MO), Gannon (PA), Ohio Dominican, Quincy (IL), St. Bonaventure, St. Leo, Seton HIll, Siena, Dallas, Portland, San Diego, Incarnate Word, St. Francis (PA), St. Francis (NY).

So of all those, I really only see (based on school size, NCAA Division and geography) that you MIGHT add Canisius, Loyola Maryland, Loyola Chicago, Holy Cross, Fairfield, Fordham, St. Joseph's, St. Peter's, St. Bonaventure, LaSalle, Niagara, Duquesne. And to be honest, I dont think any of those bring what St. Louis and Dayton bring. Unless they could woo Boston College or Notre Dame, I dont see them adding past 12.



Thanks for the very informative post!

Personally, I don't think that the Big East(nice guys) wants to raid any one conference too hard. With that in mind....I feel the BE will only pick up Dayton or St. Louis this next year...in conjunction with one other team from another conference. My guess is St. Louis, because of their outlying distance from other A-10 schools. Which would keep them from being exiled from the other A-10 programs. Dayton is close enough to the other A-10 schools that they wouldn't feel left out or too far away.
The other team I believe is on the BE radar...is Loyola Md.

Within the next two years....I see Dayton and Duquesne.

I also believe that the BE will bring their numbers up to 18. Mostly because of the numbers that were in the BE previously. I think that the BE likes large numbers of high quality teams. This is also a chance to extend some money and opportunity to schools that would not usually have the chance to be involved.

Anyway....this is my first post here. And I would like to thank everyone for their efforts on this site. Makes for very interesting reading.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:55 am 
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I think Creighton was a great addition. The best of the new ones, actually. Great fan base, and a consistently competitive program.

If the Big East wants to take a risk on St. Louis, let them. They were totally irrelevant until they hired Majerus, and, honestly, how they transitioned from where they were to him was not a positive one. SLU is just spending money to look like it's still competitive. If the Big East wants to get in bed with them ahead of proven, consistent programs like Dayton, VCU, St. Joe's, Wichita State, or even go back for Holy Cross...hey, it's their mistake to make.

As an A10 fan, I hope SLU does bolt. Maybe it helps shape the footprint of where the conference can go next.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:54 pm 
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Welcome to the board mozilla. glad to have you.

I think a lot of us seem to think that St Louis and Richmond are up next for the Big East for 11/12.

After that it could go so many different direction for 13-16 or 18 that its hard to predict but here is my best bets...

West: Wichita State (great program, ties up KC/StL/Ohama markets with Creighton/StL), Detriot Mercy (also great market that's untapped currently), Belmont (gets a foot in the South, nice market/travel), Dayton (great bball but duplicate market as Xavier), and Duquesne (helps bridge the East Coast to the Midwest and the Catholic 7 have had a footprint in Pittsburgh in the past w/ Pitt/WVU)

East: VCU (great sports but duplicate market as Richmond and public), Duquesne (same reasons as above but could also be in the "East"), Loyola (MD) (great everything fits rightin), Fairfield (my sleeper pick, great all around school just not as good in bball as the rest but top LAX and academics), Siena/StBon (both quality adds), Davidson (most interesting option puts the Big East in the real South not just the DC burbs).

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:56 pm 
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Hamburger wrote:
These schools are Jesuit (obviously some of these would never join the Big East): Boston College, Canisius, LeMoyne, Spring Hill, Holy Cross, Creighton, Fairfield, Fordham, Georgetown, Gonzaga, John Carroll, Loyola Marymount, Loyola - Chicago, Loyola - Maryland, Loyola - New Orleans, Marquette, Regis, Rockhurst, St. John's (MN), St. Joseph's, St. Peter's, St. Louis, Santa Clara, Seattle, Wheeling Jesuit, Xavier, Detroit-Mercy. San Francisco and Scranton.

These schools are Marianist: Chaminade (Honolulu), St. Mary's (TX), Dayton.

These schools are Delasallian: St. Mary's (MN), St. Mary's (CA), Christian Brothers (Memphis), LaSalle

These schools are Vincentian: DePaul, Niagara, St. Johns (NY)

These schools are Augustinian: Villanova, Merrimack

These schools are Archdioscene: Holy Cross, Sacred Heart, St. Anselm (NH), Stonehill, Thomas More, Catholic (DC), Mt. St. Mary, Notre Dame, St. Thomas (MN), St. Scholastica, DeSales, Dominican, Duquesne, Fontbonne (MO), Gannon (PA), Ohio Dominican, Quincy (IL), St. Bonaventure, St. Leo, Seton Hall, Siena, Dallas, Portland, San Diego, Incarnate Word, St. Francis (PA), St. Francis (NY).


The above underlined and bolded + Butler and Providence.

If I were the Big East and I really wanted to expand, I would go to 13 members. Why? I would want to make sure every school played every other school an equal amount of times every couple years. In a 13-member scenario, School X in Year 1 would play 6 schools twice and 6 schools once. The following year, School X would play 6 schools twice and 6 schools once, but the opposite amount of times they played the prior year.

I would never want to force feed expansion just for the sake of expansion. 10 is a round number for a 18-game conference schedule (played everyone twice). 13 means you do the example as I displayed above. 16 means you play 3 teams twice and 12 teams once (play everyone the same amount of times every 4 years). And 19 means you play everyone just once. Anything above 19 means you will not play someone every year.

10 is good for right now, but if they were to expand, I say add 3 to get to 13. I would add: Saint Louis, Dayton, and Virginia Commonwealth (I think the conference would benefit from adding a public school to expand it's footprint that adds some basketball prowess)

Then to get to 16...St. Joseph's, Davidson, and Richmond

Then to get to 19...just stretching it really...so I won't do it...


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:14 pm 
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The most ideal set up for the Big East would be 12 members 6 in the Midwest and 6 in the Northeast. With that being said, i think the best 2 candidates out there are Dayton and St Louis--both Midwestern schools. This of course is problematic so then we have to think about 14 as a new magic number and finding two eastern schools that they can "make due" with. I think Richmond and Duquesne could be those 2 schools. Both bring attractive markets but both would schools would need to make some considerable financial commitments to their basketball programs to make that happen. Duquesne could easily come up with the funds by disbanding their middling, NEC affiliated football program.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:42 pm 
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fighting muskie wrote:
The most ideal set up for the Big East would be 12 members 6 in the Midwest and 6 in the Northeast. With that being said, i think the best 2 candidates out there are Dayton and St Louis--both Midwestern schools. This of course is problematic so then we have to think about 14 as a new magic number and finding two eastern schools that they can "make due" with. I think Richmond and Duquesne could be those 2 schools. Both bring attractive markets but both would schools would need to make some considerable financial commitments to their basketball programs to make that happen. Duquesne could easily come up with the funds by disbanding their middling, NEC affiliated football program.


Should be those possibilities, or VCU as the replacement of Duquesne. Speaking of Duquesne, it's a private school, but is it a religious or Catholic one, like other members of the new Big East, or is it like Butler?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:47 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
The most ideal set up for the Big East would be 12 members 6 in the Midwest and 6 in the Northeast. With that being said, i think the best 2 candidates out there are Dayton and St Louis--both Midwestern schools. This of course is problematic so then we have to think about 14 as a new magic number and finding two eastern schools that they can "make due" with. I think Richmond and Duquesne could be those 2 schools. Both bring attractive markets but both would schools would need to make some considerable financial commitments to their basketball programs to make that happen. Duquesne could easily come up with the funds by disbanding their middling, NEC affiliated football program.


Should be those possibilities, or VCU as the replacement of Duquesne. Speaking of Duquesne, it's a private school, but is it a religious or Catholic one, like other members of the new Big East, or is it like Butler?

They're private Roman Catholic (Spiritian).

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:09 pm 
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tkalmus wrote:
They're private Roman Catholic (Spiritian).


Then Duquesne should be a possible candidate as well.

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