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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:19 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
That is if most of the D-I conferences plan to have 16 teams, with 4 4-team pods. Then, how would you organize the schedule format/structure?

The scruture would be pretty nice, and not everyone has to do it, its just an 18 games schedule.
Pretend the Big East added StL, Dayton, Duquesne, Richmond, VCU, and St Bona

Western pod- Creighton, StL, Marquette, DePaul
Midwest pod- Butler, Dayton, Xavier, Duquesne
Eastern pod- Villanova, Georgetown, Richmond, VCU
Northeastern pod- Seton Hall, St John's, Providence, St Bona(or who ever)

You can make 4 pods with just about any addition be it Wichita St, Holy Cross, Detriot, Davidson, Belmont, Boston U.

Play home and home with your pod (6 games) and play 1 game with everyone else in the conference (12 games) it works just as well as the 12 team setup but in reverse, home and home with your division (12 games) and play 1 game with everyone else in the conference (6 games).

ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
At least I tried, because that's how my opinions are expressed so far, whatsoever.

I agree with you that the Big East/Atlantic10 challenge would be cool to see, but the pragmatist in me understands that what's cool or entertaining for the fans isn't always in the best interest of the conference, as frustrating as that might be to deal with when thinking about this stuff.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:25 pm 
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tkalmus wrote:
The scruture would be pretty nice, and not everyone has to do it, its just an 18 games schedule.
Pretend the Big East added StL, Dayton, Duquesne, Richmond, VCU, and St Bona

Western pod- Creighton, StL, Marquette, DePaul
Midwest pod- Butler, Dayton, Xavier, Duquesne
Eastern pod- Villanova, Georgetown, Richmond, VCU
Northeastern pod- Seton Hall, St John's, Providence, St Bona(or who ever)

You can make 4 pods with just about any addition be it Wichita St, Holy Cross, Detriot, Davidson, Belmont, Boston U.

Play home and home with your pod (6 games) and play 1 game with everyone else in the conference (12 games) it works just as well as the 12 team setup but in reverse, home and home with your division (12 games) and play 1 game with everyone else in the conference (6 games).


Good point. Having to face the other 12 teams once every year, and on a home-and-home basis every two years; while facing your own pod members twice for a total of 6. At least it would work out well. But in case the pods should be grouped into divisions for certain reasons, I would group the Eastern and Northeastern pods as Division A, and the Midwest and Western pods as Division B.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:24 pm 
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tkalmus wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
By the way, have St. Bona and Duquesne been successful teams in recent years?

Duquesne last went to the tourney in 1977. St.Bona went in 2000, 2012 during the 28 years I've been watching college bball. FYI JP went to St.Bona, I'll be pitching Fresno St. to the Pac 12 later :D


Sounds logic enough. But I bet you won't say the same logic or answer about other schools from other conferences to be eligible for other conferences (such as the Southland's Stephen F. Austin State, with their run this season upto to the NCAA tourney with almost a 30-game win streak before losing to UCLA, who might be a candidate for the Sun Belt in the future).

Beleive it or not there is some solid logic behind JP's wish list.

Duquesne and St Bona aren't elite. That's obvious but he is argueing that the Big East has too many elite teams and need more filler to add to give the Big East teams a couple to beat up on. Except for SH's run from 88-94 under P.J. Carlesimo, Seton Hall has been the only truely bad team which make playing each other in conference really difficult.

Adding Dusquesne/St Bona would be the underlings of the Big East and they fit the private/mostly Catholic mold. These would give there already established "stars" more chance to shine against the lesser competition and make matchups between good competition (which seemed like nearly every week) more valueable to the fans/viewing audience.

About your SFA analogy...the Big East is not the Sun Belt, the Big East makes more money w/o fb than the Sun Belt does with football. Its an apples/oranges comparision. The Sun Belt needs football to be successful.

A more apt analogy would be like (adapting the timeline to fit this narrative) the MWC adding Utah St/San Jose St/UTEP (both not very historical powers in fb) to a strong fb league that included Hawaii, SDSU, Fresno St, Nevada, Boise St, BYU, TCU, CSU, Air Force, and WYO plus weak fb schools UNLV/UNM.

By adding two more weaker football schools, you make the good fb schools look better (free win for BSU/TCU/BYU, easy wins for the rest) and give your weaker schools a "rival" which they may actually be able to keep a competitive series that can be the highlight of their normally miserable 1-2 wins season.

Also realize what the A10(bb) and SEC(fb) have proved, that by scheduling winable OOC games and by only playing your members semi-regularly (SEC only play's their "cross division rival" only 1 interdivisional game a year, meaning they'll play home-home with everyone in 12 years)(A10 playing 16 games in an 13 member conference meaning play everyone + 4).

The Big East could/should realize this, and assuming FOX is willing to pay, expand to 16, play everyone plus 3 rivals or pod for a nice 18 game schedule.

Adding the sucking teams like Utah St. and SJSU backfired, SJSU ruined our undefeated season and shot at a BCS and Utah St. won their division over Boise. BE has enough sucky teams, SHU, SJU, DePaul, Providence(most years). There's some concern that Butler may not be the same w/o their coach. Add SLU and hope they can't win w/o Majrus' players. Then pick 1 of Dayton, Richmond.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:32 pm 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
tkalmus wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
By the way, have St. Bona and Duquesne been successful teams in recent years?

Duquesne last went to the tourney in 1977. St.Bona went in 2000, 2012 during the 28 years I've been watching college bball. FYI JP went to St.Bona, I'll be pitching Fresno St. to the Pac 12 later :D


Sounds logic enough. But I bet you won't say the same logic or answer about other schools from other conferences to be eligible for other conferences (such as the Southland's Stephen F. Austin State, with their run this season upto to the NCAA tourney with almost a 30-game win streak before losing to UCLA, who might be a candidate for the Sun Belt in the future).

Beleive it or not there is some solid logic behind JP's wish list.

Duquesne and St Bona aren't elite. That's obvious but he is argueing that the Big East has too many elite teams and need more filler to add to give the Big East teams a couple to beat up on. Except for SH's run from 88-94 under P.J. Carlesimo, Seton Hall has been the only truely bad team which make playing each other in conference really difficult.

Adding Dusquesne/St Bona would be the underlings of the Big East and they fit the private/mostly Catholic mold. These would give there already established "stars" more chance to shine against the lesser competition and make matchups between good competition (which seemed like nearly every week) more valueable to the fans/viewing audience.

About your SFA analogy...the Big East is not the Sun Belt, the Big East makes more money w/o fb than the Sun Belt does with football. Its an apples/oranges comparision. The Sun Belt needs football to be successful.

A more apt analogy would be like (adapting the timeline to fit this narrative) the MWC adding Utah St/San Jose St/UTEP (both not very historical powers in fb) to a strong fb league that included Hawaii, SDSU, Fresno St, Nevada, Boise St, BYU, TCU, CSU, Air Force, and WYO plus weak fb schools UNLV/UNM.

By adding two more weaker football schools, you make the good fb schools look better (free win for BSU/TCU/BYU, easy wins for the rest) and give your weaker schools a "rival" which they may actually be able to keep a competitive series that can be the highlight of their normally miserable 1-2 wins season.

Also realize what the A10(bb) and SEC(fb) have proved, that by scheduling winable OOC games and by only playing your members semi-regularly (SEC only play's their "cross division rival" only 1 interdivisional game a year, meaning they'll play home-home with everyone in 12 years)(A10 playing 16 games in an 13 member conference meaning play everyone + 4).

The Big East could/should realize this, and assuming FOX is willing to pay, expand to 16, play everyone plus 3 rivals or pod for a nice 18 game schedule.

Adding the sucking teams like Utah St. and SJSU backfired, SJSU ruined our undefeated season and shot at a BCS and Utah St. won their division over Boise. BE has enough sucky teams, SHU, SJU, DePaul, Providence(most years). There's some concern that Butler may not be the same w/o their coach. Add SLU and hope they can't win w/o Majrus' players. Then pick 1 of Dayton, Richmond.


We agree, 12 is obviously the next progression and it will allow the conference a little breathing room from the full double round robin and setup nice division to minimize travel.

StL is the shoe-in, Richmond is the most logical pick (fb with Nova, added LAX, new market), but Dayton is making a strong case.

If I was in charge, StL/Richmond next season, then Dayton know they are on deck (along with any other favorites).

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:46 pm 
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If Dayton is #13, who would Big East #14 be? There seems to be a big drop off there. The usual suspects (Davidson, Belmont, Siena, Charleston, Detroit, Denver) aren't setting the world on fire every year.

Davidson would also create an interesting problem by being the fourth school in the league to play non-scholarship football (Butler, Dayton, Georgetown).


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:39 pm 
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wbyeager wrote:
If Dayton is #13, who would Big East #14 be? There seems to be a big drop off there. The usual suspects (Davidson, Belmont, Siena, Charleston, Detroit, Denver) aren't setting the world on fire every year.

Davidson would also create an interesting problem by being the fourth school in the league to play non-scholarship football (Butler, Dayton, Georgetown).

Someone in the East (as in East of Ohio), like Duquesne IMO...but a school in upstate NY (Siena), MA (Holy Cross, Boston U), CN (Fairfield) or even down in NC (Davidson).

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:31 am 
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My vote is Duquesne. BU and Holy Cross aren't going to walk away from the prestige of the Patriot League.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:28 pm 
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tute79 wrote:
JP Schmack is onto something.

Every conference with a few powerhouse teams needs to have a few patsies to help the powerhouse teams "pad their record".

So the BE should focus on:
a) nice TV market for FOX
b) Catholic schools with similar "mission"
c) track record of the school to play crappy ball for extended periods

The college presidents need to understand that their own W-L record depends upon the weaklings' [in-conference] L-W records.


It's not just "crappy catholic school with fans" though. You don't want "crappy." You want CRAPPY IN CONFERENCE, BUT KNOWS HOW TO SCHEDULE OOC.

Duquesne & Bona are perfect. They bridge the gap between midwest and east. They bring the Pitt/Erie/Buffalo/Rochester region.
Duquesne is borderline terrible, but Bona's been solid post-scandal.

Yeah, I'm clearly a Bona homer who wants $5 million in TV loot for my team.

But Bona's OOC has also been exactly what the Big East needs.

The Big East was 94-31 OOC this past season. But they'd be dumping two conference games for non-conference games. So they buy two more games each against terrible teams and win 'em all.

Which means Bona/DUQ need to win at least 16 games OOC to raise the Big East's OOC win pct of .7520… and they did! (8-5 DUQ; 10-4 Bona). So that's 123-40 (.7546)

But dropping from 18 to 16 increases the SOS for the conference games no matter what.

So they come our way further ahead:

Assuming:
-- East/West schedule matrix (DUQ West; Bona East)
-- DUQ finishes 12th at 2-14 (split with DEP/BUT)
-- Bona goes 4-12 (Wins over DUQ, DEP, BUT, SHU)

Providence: 25-11 on Selection Sunday
Xavier: 23-10 on Selection Sunday
---
St. John's: 22-10 on Selection Sunday
Georgetown: 19-12 on Selection Sunday
---
Marq: 19-13 on Selection Sunday


That's probably a six bid league.

And Dayton now has to play two more games, and might lose to UMass, VCU, GW once and be left out.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:25 pm 
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fighting muskie wrote:
My vote is Duquesne. BU and Holy Cross aren't going to walk away from the prestige of the Patriot League.


Boston can't afford to run a Big East athletic department. Just wait until they decide to not offer the maximum amount of scholarships in the Patriot...

Despite their total irrelevancy, Duquesne does have their upsides. They have their game with Pitt, but have also worked well with Penn State, too. And, like Villanova but on a lesser scale, bigger conference games could be played in the CEC as Villanova does at the WFC. But, the irrelevancy thing makes them such a tough sell. It's not just scheduling tough...you have to win those games too, sometimes.

With money on the table from Fox, it sounds like the expansion issue is more about who than anything else. I think it's SLU and Richmond, with the "holdup" being why Richmond over any of the others out there.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:22 pm 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
My vote is Duquesne. BU and Holy Cross aren't going to walk away from the prestige of the Patriot League.


Boston can't afford to run a Big East athletic department. Just wait until they decide to not offer the maximum amount of scholarships in the Patriot...

Despite their total irrelevancy, Duquesne does have their upsides. They have their game with Pitt, but have also worked well with Penn State, too. And, like Villanova but on a lesser scale, bigger conference games could be played in the CEC as Villanova does at the WFC. But, the irrelevancy thing makes them such a tough sell. It's not just scheduling tough...you have to win those games too, sometimes.

With money on the table from Fox, it sounds like the expansion issue is more about who than anything else. I think it's SLU and Richmond, with the "holdup" being why Richmond over any of the others out there.


People forget that conference realignment is a two-way street. Duquesne is going to be less irrelevant in the Big East than they are in the Atlantic 10.

$5 million a year in TV revenue would be massive to DU athletics, and they'd up their game significantly.


That's actually a reason why I think Bonaventure would be a smart add for the Big East.
(Obviously, I'm a Bona guy, so of course I say it).

Bonaventure has had decent success... despite the smalled budget in the A-10 for virtually the entire length of their tenure. The team over-achieves constantly. This season (18-15) is mediocre. But they were also picked 12th out of 13th.
Bona's athletics budget is about $8 mil; and Seton Hall's is about $18 million. And the Bonnies have performed about the same as the Pirates (comparing last 15 non-NCAA sanction years). Imagine what the Bonnies could do with $5 million more in TV revenue.

The Market size is irrelevant. Olean, NY is tiny... because none of our alums actually live there! Our fans are everywhere, and nuts. (6000 seat arena in a town of 14,452 people?). They wouldn't bring in the entire Rochester & Buffalo markets, but they'd bring in enough of those markets to pull decent TV numbers for the league. Especially when Big East revenues make their program better.

Back before the Big East got on ESPN, the Bonnies and Syracuse were peers. It was national TV exposure in the Big East that made Syracuse a brand and the Bonnies an afterthought.

And, of course, for a while, the Bonnies would be pretty easy to beat and lead to more Big East bids in the meantime while the school ups its game.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:24 pm 
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DePaul should be dropped if they cannot make the NIT in the next few years. As was the case with Temple football, they haven't added value.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:45 pm 
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bigshotbob wrote:
DePaul should be dropped if they cannot make the NIT in the next few years. As was the case with Temple football, they haven't added value.

DePaul brings the best market in the West. The old Big East only had a deal with Temple football which sucked but Temple wouldn't have been kicked if A: they were a full member; and B: they didn't have Villanova (also in Philly) in all other sports. Kicking out DePaul ain't happening.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:51 pm 
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http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20140310/BLOGS04/140309795/depaul-basketball-attendance-finishes-below-2-000-per-game


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:41 am 
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I saw the last game coached by Ray Meyer. I think it was about 1985.
NCAA Midwest regional in St. Louis - they blew a 6-point lead in the last minute to lose to Wake Forest..... just some awful coaching to manage to lose that game.

DePaul slipped to the upper edge of mediocrity after that. Son Joey Meyer was sort of an empty suit, but they got by on recruiting some decent talent in / around the Chicago area.
The current slide doesn't have to be irreversible, but it helps to have one's arena somewhat close to campus, to make it easier for the students to attend
(even if you are "giving" the tickets away, it creates a better atmosphere).

It's all about recruiting and coaching. The AD has to put those resources in place. You won't succeed in the Big East "on the cheap".


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:10 pm 
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tute79 wrote:
You won't succeed in the Big East "on the cheap".


But you might be chosen to keep running with them. So, you still get some big distinction without putting a drop into the common cup. Seton Hall's been doing that ever since Rutgers turned the conference down back at the beginning.

I'm going to put it out there: I think these schools are cutting their budgets a bit. And I don't mean travel. They lost the schools that packed the houses, and the ones still with the group haven't put in their fair share for years, and still won't. I think there is a reality to this split, and the C7 were on the wrong side of it (even if I think the AAC is unsustainable for the northern members). The conference can't demand Georgetown and Villanova to always uphold it. But, it looks like that's how it's going to go.

And they're adding trips to Denver now for lacrosse because all of that money and legacy couldn't convince one more out of that C7 bloc to pony up for lacrosse? Good job, Seton Hall and DePaul. All you!


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