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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 9:33 am 
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fighting muskie wrote:
As an Ohioan i'm inclined to say darn the geography and let Dayton in because the Fliers have produced a great product but if we must chase markets I agree, St. Louis and Duquesne are the schools to go with.


Dayton has done really well. And that $73 million the city made...off the elite 8 run was astonishing(as per ESPN).
If the BE went with four schools....would that guarantee Dayton and Richmond could be included? Assuming SLU and Duq were 1 and 2.

Would 14 schools be prohibitive in some way to the BE? Two, 7 school conferences would reduce some travel, I have to guess.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:29 pm 
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It kind of strikes me as hollow when conferences take programs that don't have much history with the new digs. Like, 2007 was the last time Creighton saw a C7 team, and Xavier was in 2010. Duquesne had Georgetown in '12-13, didn't have one before that until...well, maybe before 2001. There may be something to the whole "we want to get to know each other" thing because, really, the new guys have no history with the vets. Of the other next-in candidates, SLU had two, but had shared time with Marquette and DePaul in CUSA, Dayton's saw a few, and Richmond used to see a few, too (oddly not Georgetown, though).


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:17 am 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
I don't begrudge the Big East for taking Denver. Denver's a ringer, and in a conference that isn't deep in lacrosse (pretty much only Georgetown), Denver's a great addition. But...it's not like the conference needed to stay at six, and Richmond's already got one more appearance in a tournament in the sport than St. John's ever had. I think taking Richmond on in anything would show that there's interest in working with the Spiders. That one seemed easy, but didn't happen. I still think they might be a school getting the invite, but I don't think their case is all that favorable.

5) Denver's other sports (if distance could be accounted for financially, and maybe if the "bridge" for the conference to Gonzaga)


Denver's a non-player. When the WCC needed a 10th, instead of taking the Denver market, they took Pacific. In Stockton, which has 1/4 of the population of Denver and no local TV stations. And coming off six mediocre seasons. Denver and Seattle need to make huge facility committments and they'll be WCC schools.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:20 am 
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JPSchmack wrote:
Denver's a non-player. When the WCC needed a 10th, instead of taking the Denver market, they took Pacific. In Stockton, which has 1/4 of the population of Denver and no local TV stations. And coming off six mediocre seasons. Denver and Seattle need to make huge facility committments and they'll be WCC schools.


I believe that Denver and Seattle should be WCC members. After all, Seattle was part of the WCC in the past before leaving D-I for the NAIA. Plus, it would bring great markets within their respective cities.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:48 am 
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JPSchmack wrote:
Denver and Seattle need to make huge facility committments and they'll be WCC schools.



Is that what Pacific did to secure their invite? Somehow, I doubt it.


ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
I believe that Denver and Seattle should be WCC members. After all, Seattle was part of the WCC in the past before leaving D-I for the NAIA. Plus, it would bring great markets within their respective cities.


Why does the WCC need to go to 12 schools?


Just because Seattle was once a part of this conference...doesn't guarantee that they want to get back or the conf wants them back.
Tulane was part of the SEC at one time...should the SEC take them back now?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:03 pm 
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JPSchmack wrote:
Denver's a non-player. When the WCC needed a 10th, instead of taking the Denver market, they took Pacific. In Stockton, which has 1/4 of the population of Denver and no local TV stations. And coming off six mediocre seasons. Denver and Seattle need to make huge facility committments and they'll be WCC schools.


29 NCAA team championships and Denver's a non-player? I don't disagree that their basketball needs to improve, but Magness is just fine for that juggernaut hockey team; Denver's an academic and athletic stud. Totally different from Seattle. If they were a non-player, the BE wouldn't have taken them even if just for lacrosse...because there were plenty of other closer options of similarly minded institutions, even beyond the previously discussed Richmond. Bellarmine, Jacksonville, Hobart, and heck...take both DU and AFA. They didn't. They took only the Pioneers.

Pacific and WCC had little, if anything, to do with what DU and SU didn't have. Pacific was a WCC school before football forced them out. Once football went away, it was only a matter of time the two reunited. Not to forget, while Provo is not exactly close to the heart of the WCC, tack on an additional nearly 500 miles and that's how far Denver is from Provo. I know Denver makes more sense to the WCC than Big East, and by a long measure, but the Big East already is working with Denver, while the WCC isn't...and geographically, it makes no sense for the Big East to be doing that. If the money and incentives are there, though (and a bridge to Gonzaga could be that, *could be*), Denver could fit that mold.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:56 pm 
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Letting Denver in for Lacrosse was a good move. It made sense. I don't think the pioneers are an all sports candidate nor will they ever be.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:22 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
I believe that Denver and Seattle should be WCC members. After all, Seattle was part of the WCC in the past before leaving D-I for the NAIA. Plus, it would bring great markets within their respective cities.


Eventually, yes. But not yet.

mozilla wrote:
Why does the WCC need to go to 12 schools?


They don't, but if Denver/Seattle up their game and become peer institutions to the WCC schools, it makes a ridiculous amount of sense.

-- Adding two big markets to a very good second-tier basketball conference (third in the the A-10/Big East class)
-- better travel partners. Instead of Gonzaga/Portland and BYU/San Diego; you'd have Gonzaga/Seattle; BYU/Denver and USD/Portland.

mozilla wrote:
Is that what Pacific did to secure their invite? Somehow, I doubt it.


The Bishin Cutter wrote:
29 NCAA team championships and Denver's a non-player? I don't disagree that their basketball needs to improve, but Magness is just fine for that juggernaut hockey team; Denver's an academic and athletic stud. Totally different from Seattle. If they were a non-player, the BE wouldn't have taken them even if just for lacrosse...because there were plenty of other closer options of similarly minded institutions, even beyond the previously discussed Richmond. Bellarmine, Jacksonville, Hobart, and heck...take both DU and AFA. They didn't. They took only the Pioneers.

Pacific and WCC had little, if anything, to do with what DU and SU didn't have.

That was more directed at Seattle than Denver. Pacific's facilities are light-years ahead of Seattle.

I've never been to Denver University, but I'm guessing they have a pretty nice basketball arena since they play hockey in it, and play hockey WELL in it.

But Pacific's basketball arena is the second-largest and the fourth-nicest in the WCC (they're upgrading soon)
Pacific's baseball stadium is the second-largest and probably the nicest/second nicest (and it's not done)
Pacific is building new soccer/tennis/field hockey facilities.
Pacific's softball stadium is among the nicer in that sport (with lights, unlike a lot of schools)

Pacific got the invite because of:
-- facilities/infrastructure
-- quality of the program (primarily in men's hoops with four NCAA bids in the last 12 seasons, including an at-large).
Their volleyball program is pretty decent (2 NCAA titles, 5 Final Fours),
Their softball team is good (let WCC add the sport),
Their region is a hotbed for men's soccer (and Pacific added men's soccer as part of the invite).
Their baseball team has had bad records due to SOS, but getting away from Fullerton/Long Beach/Irvine/Poly/UCSB should make them contenders in the WCC.


Denver's really good in ice hockey and skiiing. Which aren't Big East or WCC sports. They are good in lacrosse, which is a Big East sport.


The Bishin Cutter wrote:
Pacific was a WCC school before football forced them out. Once football went away, it was only a matter of time the two reunited. Not to forget, while Provo is not exactly close to the heart of the WCC, tack on an additional nearly 500 miles and that's how far Denver is from Provo. I know Denver makes more sense to the WCC than Big East, and by a long measure, but the Big East already is working with Denver, while the WCC isn't...and geographically, it makes no sense for the Big East to be doing that. If the money and incentives are there, though (and a bridge to Gonzaga could be that, *could be*), Denver could fit that mold.


The Stockton market, which isn't much of a market and doesn't add any real TV area the WCC didn't already have, didn't make the reunion anything that the WCC actually NEEDED.

Conference affiliation is a two-way street. BWC Pacific doesn't help the WCC; but in the WCC, Pacific can become a strong program that helps the league. Denver has ridiculous potential in terms of how good they can be with better conference affiliation. Seattle, too. But Seattle definitely doesn't have the infrastructure/facility commitment to join the WCC now.

The other reason I think Pacific got the nod over Denver/Seattle is:
-- Gonzaga is not a huge proponent of Seattle. Gonzaga doesn't want Seattle to play at their level.
-- The possibility BYU leaves. If you add Denver instead of Pacific and BYU bolts for football reasons, you have DU all alone on an island in Colorado and no one remotely close. But in every instance of changes in the WCC, Pacific was going to get the call, so they made the most sense for 10.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:35 pm 
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I don't think the WCC marches to the beat of media contracts and markets. Program readiness, yes, footprints, not so much. BYU and Pacific both added strength to the WCC basketball pool. But I do believe legacy has a lot to do with that, too, even if there were certain WCC school fans who weren't hot on Pacific rejoining the group (I know Gonzaga fans weren't). I do believe there are sustainability and viability issues looming, if not present, in the WCC to keep up with the likes of Gonzaga, SMC, and BYU...going to "the devil you know" with Pacific...yes, the facilities are good, but there's also institutional likemindedness, travel considerations (WCC becomes more bus league to certain blocs), and overall institutional health.

It's odd that with schools like Pepperdine and St. Mary's, Seattle is held to a standard that isn't fair (SMC and Pepperdine play in modified high school-like gyms), but the commitment thing...Seattle bolted when others stayed. Just because the circumstances for D1 membership loosened up for Seattle to reconsider, Seattle isn't a safe bet for the WCC. I don't doubt Gonzaga wants no part of them.

But the above is where I begin to wonder if the WCC has a ceiling, and if Gonzaga might just be better going off somewhere else. We know football spending is out of control...it's not like basketball spending became more efficient. Gonzaga's good at what they do, but they certainly spend more than the other WCC schools, and if "keeping up" with Gonzaga now and then means going under financially, is it worth it? I don't know if Gonzaga's acting like a diva in the WCC, but the conversation about that program has always been its conference surroundings when it recruits, plays, and spends more like a high mid-major. Seattle might be future fait accompli for the WCC...does that mean the conference is throwing in its competitive towel (I assume BYU's gone sometime in the next decade if not sooner)? Is it worth it to Gonzaga to keep its hoops in the WCC when there could be other conferences (including the WCC) who would take the other sports, or if the money is really good in the Big East?

If Gonzaga ever does stray from the WCC...that's where and how I see Denver getting their chance. It's remote...very remote...but the Big East is doing business with the Pioneers, and lacrosse was enough of an investment to the conference to force its members to make some ridiculous travel demands. Why stop at a sport that isn't as proven a revenue-maker as hoops usually is?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:43 pm 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
I don't think the WCC marches to the beat of media contracts and markets...


Not in the sense of how the big boys do it, but this was really their first "opportunity" at expansion in the modern era with TV contracts. We've seen other conferences make more ridiculous choices for TV markets (Fordham to the Atlantic 10, for example) and the WCC didn't go for Seattle or Denver over Stockton.

The Bishin Cutter wrote:
....going to "the devil you know" with Pacific...yes, the facilities are good, but there's also institutional likemindedness, travel considerations (WCC becomes more bus league to certain blocs), and overall institutional health.


My firm belief is that Pacific's invite stemmed from scheduling/travel. When BYU got the invite (August 2011), I'm sure Pacific called and said "We'll be your 10th!" (Pacific's been on record as trying to get back into the WCC since they dropped football in the mid-90s), and they got shot down. But then the MBB schedule came out with nine WCC teams, and no one was happy; so they decided to add them:

"I do believe this year playing with nine teams it definitely triggered what I thought it would,” Gonzaga athletic director Mike Roth said. “It was going to be a very short period of time when people in the league said we need an even number, 8 or 10 or whatever it is, to make scheduling work, make it fair and make it more economical. This year’s schedule definitely got people’s attention and I do believe Jamie heard from a number of schools about it."

The Bishin Cutter wrote:
It's odd that with schools like Pepperdine and St. Mary's, Seattle is held to a standard that isn't fair (SMC and Pepperdine play in modified high school-like gyms), but the commitment thing...Seattle bolted when others stayed. Just because the circumstances for D1 membership loosened up for Seattle to reconsider, Seattle isn't a safe bet for the WCC. I don't doubt Gonzaga wants no part of them.


I don't think it is odd at all. Of course you're holding new members to a higher standard, because that's how you improve. I don't think the fact that Seattle downgraded before is a huge factor going forward. They need to commit to athletics with new facilities projects, fund their programs to adequate levels, and basically say "Our goal is to raise our game to what's needed to get into the WCC; and then to WIN in the WCC" and the WCC will take notice. Gonzaga will probably fight it, but if Denver and Seattle are winning their conferences in MBB while playing in new, nice and full arenas, the other nine will tell Gonzaga to suck it up.

The Bishin Cutter wrote:
But the above is where I begin to wonder if the WCC has a ceiling, and if Gonzaga might just be better going off somewhere else. We know football spending is out of control...it's not like basketball spending became more efficient. Gonzaga's good at what they do, but they certainly spend more than the other WCC schools, and if "keeping up" with Gonzaga now and then means going under financially, is it worth it? I don't know if Gonzaga's acting like a diva in the WCC, but the conversation about that program has always been its conference surroundings when it recruits, plays, and spends more like a high mid-major. Seattle might be future fait accompli for the WCC...does that mean the conference is throwing in its competitive towel (I assume BYU's gone sometime in the next decade if not sooner)? Is it worth it to Gonzaga to keep its hoops in the WCC when there could be other conferences (including the WCC) who would take the other sports, or if the money is really good in the Big East?

If Gonzaga ever does stray from the WCC...that's where and how I see Denver getting their chance. It's remote...very remote...but the Big East is doing business with the Pioneers, and lacrosse was enough of an investment to the conference to force its members to make some ridiculous travel demands. Why stop at a sport that isn't as proven a revenue-maker as hoops usually is?


Well, the WCC DOES have a ceiling. They're never getting BCS type money because they don't have football, can't afford football and don't want football. They're never getting 1980s Big East-type exposure because they're on the West Coast and have a time-slot problem.

But they DO have a niche. They are THE private basketball schools of the West Coast. They can offer good TV programming for late slots to ESPN. They're secure in terms of defections. At most, they lose BYU (and have Seattle or Denver who can take their place).

As far as Gonzaga, I'm sure they'd love to have teams in their conference as committed to winning in basketball as the Big East does. But it's not practical for them to join the Big East. And it's not practical for them to join any conference but the WCC.

And it IS worth it to try and keep up with Gonzaga; because Gonzaga, Xavier, the Big East schools, most the A-10 have shown that it can be done, and is worth doing.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:00 pm 
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This big East tread seems to have digressed into a WCC thread but I'd figure I'd offer some thoughts on the situation. If/when BYU leaves I see Denver as their replacement. yes this is odd as they'd be an island but when you consider that San Diego is the school that needs a travel partner and there are no viable southwestern options you might as well go with a big market.

If Gonzaga wants to take its basketball program to reach the next level I don't think the big east is who they should be talking to. It geographically does not make sense for the big east when they have St Louis and others back east that are far closer. Gonzaga needs to be talking to the MWC about filling Hawaii's spot in Olympic sports. That seems like the far better way to raise their profile and far more likely to actually happen


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:33 pm 
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fighting muskie wrote:
Gonzaga needs to be talking to the MWC about filling Hawaii's spot in Olympic sports. That seems like the far better way to raise their profile and far more likely to actually happen

THIS x 1000.

Obviously the PAC12 isn't an option but the MWC and Gonzaga could both benefit from association.

Also this move would likely get BYU closer to rejoining.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:17 am 
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Ok, back to Big East-related stuff, and I know it's still early, but who do you see to win the conference? Will it be Villanova? Will it be Creighton? Name your predictions from 1 to 10. Besides, any conference-specified news related whether with expansion or not?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:00 am 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Besides, any conference-specified news related whether with expansion or not?


Actually, there was some expansion...

UF and Vandy to the Big East?!!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:06 am 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Besides, any conference-specified news related whether with expansion or not?


Actually, there was some expansion...

UF and Vandy to the Big East?!!


But I was referring to all-sports schools, not sport-specific schools. However, thanks for sharing though.

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