NCAA Conference Realignment & Expansion Message Boards
NCAA Map

Discussions by Conference:
  It is currently Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:41 pm

Help support CollegeSportsInfo.com by shopping

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 6:17 pm 
Online
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 3811

The Conference Realignment Chronicles

- May 12th, 2003
by Matt Peloquin



Part 2: The Ripple Effect in 1A Football Conferences - ACC->Big East->CUSA->WAC


The ACC: Birth of a Superpower
Big East Football: Rest In Pieces
From The Ashes…A New Conference
Big East Basketball: Return of the New and Improved
CUSA: Capitalize on Becoming Regionalized
WAC: Prepare for Reinforcements
Sunbelt Football: D.O.A.




In 1997, when the foursome of Texas, Texas Tech, Texas A&M and Baylor left the Southwest Conference for the Big Eight, it marked the largest power shift in college sports. Since that time, the SEC and Big 12 have proven to be the two dominant powers in college sports. Expansion is not an exact science though. Just adding teams isn’t enough to raise a conferences level. The Mountain West formed once the 8 WAC members realized that a 16-team conference covering 5 time zones was just too difficult. The schools did not exist in the same regions and many were completely different in academic makeup. In 1995 CUSA formed. This mix of schools was basically those who had not received conference spots and existed as independents. To preserve the basketball traditions of the previous Metro and Great Midwest conferences, 4 non-football schools were added to keep existing markets. Then you have the Big East. A basketball conference that in 1990 decided to sponsor football by inviting Miami. As the decade progressed the football only schools of Rutgers, WVU and VA Tech were added as full members, expanding the conferences number to 14. The MAC has maintained its regional presence in the shadows of the Big Ten, growing to 14 teams with 1 football only member in Orlando. The WAC members have come and gone, and when the Big West dropped football, the Sunbelt came around to provide life support for this wayward group of outsiders. Throughout all of these changes, there has only been one conference to remain the same: the ACC. Since adding Florida State in 1990, the Acc has remained at 9 for all sports. Now, unlike any other time in the past, the future of ALL the college conferences rest in the votes of the 9 ACC schools. The hour is upon us and the ACC is beckoning for Miami.

The ACC: Birth of a Superpower
The flirtation of the ACC and Miami has been a two-way process. Both schools see the benefits of a merger. But in order to truly reap the rewards, the ACC must add a total of 3 members. Syracuse, the 2003 NCAA basketball champions and Boston College top the list of candidates. It’s being said that Miami has had some say as to whom the other 2 would be. When you consider who is available: Boston College, Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers, UConn, Temple, Marshall, ECU, WVU, VA Tech, USF, Memphis, Tulane, Louisville, etc, Boston College and Syracuse remain the most attractive due to overall athletic and academics as well as market presence.

ACC
North:
*Boston College
*Syracuse
Maryland
UVA
Georgia Tech
Clemson

South:
*Miami
Florida State
UNC
Wake Forest
Duke
NC State



So assuming that this marriage does happen, how will each other conference be affected?





AND DON'T MISS THE
Grid Of Realignment Possibilities
Image


_________________
Image

Image@ncaasports Image csi.com/facebook

Image
Like the new CSI Userbar? Feel free to use it here and any other forums.
You can save and host it yourself or link from here.


Last edited by Quinn on Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 6:19 pm 
Online
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 3811
Big East football: Rest In Pieces
The first place we look at is the existing Big East. There are 8 football-playing members, but only Pitt has been in the Big East for all sports for more than 15 years. UConn is set to join in football in 2005 and has long standing rivalries with the Big East basketball schools and Syracuse. UConn made a daring move 5 years ago, when they accepted an offer by the Big East to all it’s 1-AA football playing members. The Big East stated that if Georgetown, St. Johns, Villanova, or UConn (only Seton Hall and Providence are without 1-AA football) would like to upgrade their programs to 1-A, that they would be invited to participate in the Big East as full football members. Only UConn accepted and has spent millions making the necessary upgrades. They have even gone as far as building a new football stadium in East Hartford, some 45 minutes from the college campus in Storrs, just to assure they will be able to sell tickets. Their commitment might now be in vein as the Big East might be on life support.

If Miami, Syracuse and Boston College leave, the Big East will contain 6 non-football schools and 5 football schools (UConn replaces Temple in 2005). If the Big East wanted to continue to sponsor football, it would HAVE to be approved by the non-football schools. If the league remained as it is, the non-football members might be content with their 11-team conference. They could have more home and home series between members on an annual basis. But it’s doubtful that the football members should be able to exist and independent teams, forever outside the BCS, looking for the next big change. That would be unlikely. And the Big East non-football schools of Providence, St. johns, Seton hall, Villanova, Georgetown and Notre Dame certainly might want to improve the conference by upgrading the basketball schools of Rutgers, WVU, and VA Tech. Losing Pitt and especially UConn would be a blow, but they could secure similar markets or gain new ones by considering replacements such as UMass (MA/Boston), URI (Providence), Xavier (Cincinnati), Dayton, DePaul (Chicago), Marquette (Milwaukee), Richmond, Old Dominion (Norfolk).

So the Big East will have to make a decision: keep football and the football members or force/assist them out and replace them with stronger basketball programs that better fit the identity of the conference.

From the Ashes…A New Conference
In either scenario, the Big East football-playing members would need additional football programs. This is why it would seem more likely that the football members would brave out a 5-year period of no automatic basketball berth, and start a new conference. This might not be too bad of an option when you look at some of the other non-BCS conferences. These schools could easily recruit 2 of the top programs in CUSA, Louisville and Cincinnati. Temple, a member of the Big East in football only, could be added for all sports. In order to grab even an outside shot at a BCS berth, the league would have to go against WVU’s wishes and invite Marshall. They are clearly one of the strongest football members from a non-BCS conference, along with Louisville. Cincinnati won’t hurt football, but would add to the basketball balance. So the new conference would look like this…

New Conference: “creative” marketing will probably copy what the MWC and name this the Appalachian East Conference

UConn
Rutgers
Temple
Pitt
WVU
VA Tech
Louisville
Cincinnati
Marshall
Memphis

East Carolina would remain an option, however one would think that in order to preserve a stronger basketball tradition, Memphis could get the spot. Memphis is also a more attractive market than Greenville, NC.

And while UConn, Rutgers and Temple won’t help much in football, they do provide markets and respectable basketball programs, UConn being one of the best in the country. Sacrifices have to be made to find an acceptable balance of basketball and football schools and this is the only logical mix. It additionally includes some strong markets: UConn (CT/NY), Rutgers (NY/NJ), Temple (Philadelphia), Pittsburgh, Louisville, Cincinnati and Memphis.

Calhoun, Chaney, Pitino, Huggins and Calipari all in 1 conference. That’s as good a group of 5 as in any conference in the country.

By now we know that the only way to justify larger conferences is to have 12 members and a championship game. This new league could make that so by adding both Army and Navy as the 11th and 12th members. While this would not be likely…

North:
UConn
Army
Rutgers
Temple
Pitt
WVU

South:
Navy
VA Tech
Louisville
Cincinnati
Marshall
Memphis

In order to maintain some balance of power for football, and the Pitt/WVU rivalry, Navy would compete in the south division. Creative scheduling will have to make sure that WVU and VA Tech continue to play on an annual basis.

However, by adding Army and Navy, to a mix that already includes Uconn, Rutgers and Temple, would leave only 7 legitimate football programs out of 12. This probably wouldn’t be worth any money that could be made having a championship game.

_________________
Image

Image@ncaasports Image csi.com/facebook

Image
Like the new CSI Userbar? Feel free to use it here and any other forums.
You can save and host it yourself or link from here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 6:33 pm 
Online
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 3811
Big East Basketball: Return of the New and Improved
So we have our new conference made up of the football members of the Big East. What happens to the rest of the Big East? In addition to keeping the Big East moniker, the conference that prides itself on basketball, will have more flexibility. These 6 members will have to only add 2-3 new programs. It was the basketball members who objected most to the football minded expansion of the Big East to 14 teams for all-sports. A comfortable 9 team league would have the option to either maintain it’s current markets or to branch out into new ones such as Chicago (DePaul), Milwaukee (Marquette), St. Louis, Richmond, Norfolk (Old Dominion), Cincinnati (Xavier) or Dayton. The only drawback with these options would be the increase in travel costs. The Big East could make a safer choice and invite Atlantic 10 members, public schools, with no 1-A football aspirations. The traditions and markets that could be provided by UMass (MA/Boston) and URI (Providence) would cut back on travel costs. Richmond, Xavier, or Dayton could be included as the 9th team.

But in the end, stability and locality will be pushed aside for money and exposure. The remaining Big East schools of Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Villanova, Georgetown and Notre Dame will add DePaul, Marquette and Xavier so that they can tap into the larger Chicago, Milwaukee and Cincinnati markets.

Big East:
Providence
St. Johns
Seton Hall
Villanova
Georgetown
Notre Dame
* DePaul
* Marquette
* Xavier

The loss of Uconn and Syracuse will greatly hurt the regional presence of northeast basketball. DePaul, Marquette and Xavier are above average additions, but alone do not make up for the loss of Uconn and Syracuse. What does make this a better conference is the removal of West Virginia, Rutgers and VA Tech, three of the lower rated programs since joining the Big East. A classic example of addition by subtraction.



CUSA: Capitalize on Becoming Regionalized
Now we have a complete 12 team ACC, a new 12-team all-sports conference, and a revamped Big East made up of 9 basketball schools. Thus far, the conference that has been “poached” the most is the one everyone would expect: CUSA. CUSA football was put together in 1995 with the independent leftovers. It is only fitting that when opportunities open up, that they will be the priority schools.

After the mentioned changes, the remaining CUSA members are:
Tulane
ECU
USF
USM
UAB
TCU
Houston
Non-football members Charlotte and St. Louis.

Nobody likes change, but as has become a trend here, the new conference formations need to have stronger regional ties. CUSA can take advantage of the unfortunate raiding by strengthening and forming a stronger regional identity. The Southwest Conference was as strong as it was in the past because of such a regional identity. Since it’s breakup, many of the former members have had their athletic programs take major steps backwards. Once they are partially reunited, attendance numbers will rise and while they might never reach BCS status, they will no longer suffer from lack of fan interest.


CUSA will also want to take advantage of a 12-team format to assure a championship game payoff:

CUSA
West:
TCU
SMU
UTEP
Houston
Rice
Tulsa

East:
Tulane
LA Tech
Southern Miss
UAB
South Florida
East Carolina

The goal of non-BCS conferences is to reach BCS status. But perhaps these schools need to take a new approach. By increasing the level of fan interest at each school, through the strengthening of regional rivalries, you increase the fan interest and overall revenue. Increased revenue could lead to a better on the field product which in turn could benefit the conference in general.

Perhaps it will be time to change the name of Conference USA to something more fitting of this football rich region, stretching across the gulf coast, form Florida to Texas. This new Gulf Conference (actually this IS the true Sunbelt region) would have teams smack down in the middle of the 3 most powerful leagues: the SEC, ACC, and the Big 12.


WAC: Prepare the Reinforcements
As movement plays out, the WAC will again find themselves in the position to replace teams, a place they’ve been familiar with. Added to this problem is that the WAC has a few members such as San Jose State who are in danger of losing 1A status. In losing LA Tech, Tulsa, Rice, UTEP and SMU, they are practically calling for a merge with the Sunbelt. The Sunbelt is currently expanded about as far as it can while retaining their basketball only members. The WAC could easily take some Sunbelt football members to replenish their numbers…until the MWC comes looking for more teams:

WAC:
Boise State
Nevada
* Idaho
San Jose State
* Utah State
Hawaii
* New Mexico State
* North Texas

(Notice anyone missing? Fresno State will be addressed in the Part 3 of the Expansion Chronicles.)

Despite the addition of North Texas, the league would form a stronger western presence by losing the numerous Texas schools and replacing them with Idaho, Utah State and New Mexico State. The 8 team WAC would never gain BCS status, but could have the option to add non-football members from other conferences although it’s doubtful that that only regional conference teams (Big West, WCC, Big Sky) would ever leave.

The WAC would have a second option: Add ALL the Sunbelt teams in an attempt to grow to 12 teams and have a championship game. Essentially, this would be the same situation the Sunbelt is in. If Idaho legislation allows the university to join the Sunbelt as a full member, the conference will stretch from Florida Atlantic to New Mexico State to Idaho, covering more territory and forcing more travel than any other conference to date.

Divisions could be setup to help some of these problems:

WAC:
North:
Boise State
Nevada
* Idaho
San Jose State
* Utah State
Hawaii

South:
* New Mexico State
* North Texas
* Arkansas St
* Louisiana – Lafayette
* Middle Tennessee State
* Troy State


Sunbelt: D.O.A.
Should the WAC expand and add teams from the Sunbelt, the conference would have no choice but to drop football. The remaining football playing members would have to participate as independents. When the league formed it was basically a collection of 1AA upgrades and a few left out of the MAC and CUSA. There are very few options left.

One thing is for certain. If the Mountain West Conference expanded to 12, and invited such schools as Fresno State, Boise State, Hawaii and Utah State, the WAC and Sunbelt football schools would have to give some serious though to an all-out merger, and include Troy State in the move. It’s the only way most of the schools could survive the new 1A criteria.

Nevada
Idaho
San Jose State
New Mexico State
North Texas
Arkansas St
Louisiana – Lafayette
Middle Tennessee State
Troy State



also read...



Part 1: The ACC Power Holders

Part 2: The Ripple Effect in 1A Football Conferences - ACC->Big East->CUSA->WAC

Part 3: The First Move, Proactive & Reactive Conferences, Small But Stable

Part 4: Hoops Galore: A10, CAA, AE, Sunbelt, Missouri Valley conferences react






AND DON'T MISS THE
Grid Of Realignment Possibilities
Image






_________________
Image

Image@ncaasports Image csi.com/facebook

Image
Like the new CSI Userbar? Feel free to use it here and any other forums.
You can save and host it yourself or link from here.


Last edited by Quinn on Wed May 21, 2003 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 9:53 pm 
Interesting posts above. However, there are a couple of team that might go in a different scenario than what is mentioned above. Cental Florida is in the MAC only for football, temporary and for convenience, and appears a prime candidate for some new conference arrangement involving Eastern institutions. Also, East Carolina would blend decently with the group as well.


l


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 9:57 pm 
Ok - first off Im an ECU fan/student
this is how you had it dwindled down...

CUSA
West:
TCU
SMU
UTEP
Houston
Rice
Tulsa

East:
Tulane
LA Tech
Southern Miss
UAB
South Florida
East Carolina


ECU has no business playing in this assortment, were not close to a soul and the only rivalry is IMO a small one with southern miss.

if your time to write is any indication of knowledge
I WANT TO KNOW THIS
how much weight do you put in Army and Navy?! in this new Appalachian East. I Believe - that ECU would be willing to seperate its football team from the program if it came down to it. Getting our football team into a good conference is what this school desires and needs. In the ACCs backyard, there is almost no better school to support now for the BE (VT).

What do you think are the chances??


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2003 7:20 am 
Offline
Sophomore
Sophomore

Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 2:21 pm
Posts: 55
Location: Fayetteville, Arkansas

Quote:

The Conference Realignment Chronicles

- May 12th, 2003
by Mr. Quinn



Part 2: The Ripple Effect in 1A Football Conferences - ACC->Big East->CUSA->WAC


The ACC: Birth of a Superpower
Big East Football: Rest In Pieces
From The Ashes…A New Conference
Big East Basketball: Return of the New and Improved
CUSA: Capitalize on Becoming Regionalized
WAC: Prepare for Reinforcements
Sunbelt Football: D.O.A.




In 1997, when the foursome of Texas, Texas Tech, Texas A&M and Baylor left the Southwest Conference for the Big Eight, and Arkansas and South Carolina joined the SEC, it marked the largest power shift in college sports. Since that time, the SEC and Big 12 have proven to be the two dominant powers in college sports. Expansion is not an exact science though. Just adding teams isn’t enough to raise a conferences level. The Mountain West formed once the 8 WAC members realized that a 16-team conference covering 5 time zones was just too difficult. The schools did not exist in the same regions and many were completely different in academic makeup. In 1995 CUSA formed. This mix of schools was basically those who had not received conference spots and existed as independents. To preserve the basketball traditions of the previous Metro and Great Midwest conferences, 4 non-football schools were added to keep existing markets. Then you have the Big East. A basketball conference that in 1990 decided to sponsor football by inviting Miami. As the decade progressed the football only schools of Rutgers, WVU and VA Tech were added as full members, expanding the conferences number to 14. The MAC has maintained its regional presence in the shadows of the Big Ten, growing to 14 teams with 1 football only member in Orlando. The WAC members have come and gone, and when the Big West dropped football, the Sunbelt came around to provide life support for this wayward group of outsiders. Throughout all of these changes, there has only been one conference to remain the same: the ACC. Since adding Florida State in 1990, the Acc has remained at 9 for all sports. Now, unlike any other time in the past, the future of ALL the college conferences rest in the votes of the 9 ACC schools. The hour is upon us and the ACC is beckoning for Miami.

The ACC: Birth of a Superpower
The flirtation of the ACC and Miami has been a two-way process. Both schools see the benefits of a merger. But in order to truly reap the rewards, the ACC must add a total of 3 members. Syracuse, the 2003 NCAA basketball champions and Boston College top the list of candidates. It’s being said that Miami has had some say as to whom the other 2 would be. When you consider who is available: Boston College, Syracuse, Pitt, Rutgers, UConn, Temple, Marshall, ECU, WVU, VA Tech, USF, Memphis, Tulane, Louisville, etc, Boston College and Syracuse remain the most attractive due to overall athletic and academics as well as market presence.

ACC
North:
*Boston College
*Syracuse
Maryland
UVA
Georgia Tech
Clemson

South:
*Miami
Florida State
UNC
Wake Forest
Duke
NC State



So assuming that this marriage does happen, how will each other conference be affected?







Not quite accurate dude - Arkansas left the SWC for the SEC in about 1990 - it was this that started the downfall of the SWC - only after several years in an all-Texas crap shoot did UT and the others decide to hook up with the Big 8 conference - Arkansas leaving was way before the demise of the SWC - funny that the conference couldn't make it without the one non-Texas school - for all their pregnant doging about Arkansas, they couldn't live without us! - Arkansan


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2003 8:15 am 
Offline
Senior
Senior

Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 1:56 pm
Posts: 290

Very interesting article, though I'm much more interested in what's going down in part 3.

The C-USA (or whatever it will later be called, I like the idea of "Gulf" and "Plains" being worked in somewhere, and possibly "cactus" as someone suggested in a similar discussion on here a couple of months ago) idea is solid.

I think the MWC (interested what your next installment has to say) will act almost simultaneously with the ACC. The obvious move is to raid the WAC for Fresno, Boise St., and there's debate over who the ideal third choice would be. I say Tulsa. Football be d**ned, adding Fresno AND Tulsa would really bump up the league's basketball. A league with Utah, BYU, Tulsa, Fresno St., and CSU, the MWC could be a regular 3 bid or higher conference. What is essentially a football move would also greatly enhance basketball. Having Tulsa in football would also help regionally with the additional acquisition the MWC ought to make.

The MWC ought to ditch Wyoming and do all they can to pull in TCU to replace them. That may not be possible, since TCU may have other ideas, but it'd be worth the extra travel involved. TCU has unquestionably been the best non-BCS football program the last 4 or 5 years. Good as Marshall has been, TCU has been better. Having a title game PLUS solid members in TCU, Colorado State, BYU, Utah, Fresno St., Boise St., and Air Force in football would give the MWC a legit chance, at least in terms of on-the-field success, for inclusion in the BCS (taking the BE's old spot). That's worth taking major risks.

The conference could mitigate trvael problems aligning this way:

Mountain

Boise St.
BYU
Fresno St.
San Diego St.
UNLV
Utah

West

Air Force
Colorado St.
New Mexico
TCU
Tulsa
UTEP (or SMU)

This conference would be awfully similar to the WAC that disintegrated, but it's still smaller, aligned betetr regionally, and it would become a significant player in both major sports. The Mountain division would assure BYU and Utah of invaluable trips to California and Vegas for recruiting, and it'd give them a solid chance at a shot at the conference title game every year in football. The Western conference would be tougher in football, but the regional alignment is like a more condensed version of the Big 12, so travel costs are not ridiculously high. The Western division could also develop outstanding rivalries between UTEP and New Mexico, or rekindle and old one with TCU and SMU, depending on what each school brought to the table. SMU has much more upside and political clout, and if the alums would be willing to really invest in their program, they should probably get the nod over UTEP. Especially since New Mexico will fight the invite to UTEP.

Long term the conference would probably be in great shape (unless someone leaves the Big 12), because with trips to San Diego, Fresno, Las Vegas, Boulder, and 2 trips to Dallas-Ft. Worth, plus possible BCS status, a title game, and improvement across the board in both major sports, the MWC could recruit better than ever before.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2003 8:46 am 
Offline
Junior
Junior

Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 9:53 pm
Posts: 104
Location: Detroit

Quote:

....Arkansas left the SWC for the SEC in about 1990 - it was this that started the downfall of the SWC - only after several years in an all-Texas crap shoot did UT and the others decide to hook up with the Big 8 conference


That's the way I remember it too, Arkansan.

The expansion/realignment dominoes really started to fall when the SEC offered spots to Arkansas [they also offered a spot to both FloridaState and Miami - who turned them down to join the ACC and BigEast respectively]. The SEC finally settled on SouthCarolina as the eastern partner for Arkansas' addition in the west.

After Arkansas left the SWC, even in Detroit, we started then to refer to the SWC as the "Texas League" - an appropriate reference to a type of minor league. Its champions were also largely ignored and that brought about the demotion of the Cotton Bowl to secondary bowl status (which is partially why it is not one of the BCS Bowls today). This bowl was no longer on par with the Sugar and Orange Bowls - and well below the two-champion game the Rose Bowl had.

I can't remember if this was before or after the Big11 decided to take PennSt in (which had a very healthy delay before they were actually in) - but that move triggered the creation of the BigEast FB (which is a pretty large reaction itself - which is ignored here).

It seems to me that the Big11 thing preceded the SEC invite to Miami (but maybe not the SEC invitation to Arkansas). Miami had to have had a reasonable belief that a BigEast FB conference was going to happen when they turned the SEC down - otherwise, it was just dumb to say no. And PennSt probably would have joined a Maimi/Syracuse/Pitt based BigEast if it were still an independent when the BigEast FB started in 1991.

Anybody remember when PennSt was admitted - not actually when they started playing in the Big11 - but when they agreed to enter? That might have been the first of the whole series of dominoes - because I think that is what spurred the SEC to expand to 12 in the first place. There seemed to be no warning that the Big10 was going to add a team before it happened - or that PennSt would join one.

=======================================
- Big10 adds long time independent PennSt
- SEC expands to 12 in reaction to Big10 expansion
- ACC expands (adds FlaState) to try and keep pace with SEC
- Big 12 is created by Big8 and 4 SWC teams as a reaction to both SEC expansion (which degraded the SWC and made the 4 Texas schools willing to leave) and to Big11 expansion (to keep Big8 FB powers from being easy pickings for a Big11's 12th team, the Big8 wanted to expand to 12)
- BigEast is created to give a FB home to BigEast FB-playing BB members (Pitt, Syracuse, BC) who worry that without fellow eastern FB independent PennSt they may not have enough clout to be considered for major bowls - and the Miami additon is key to them being involved as a big time conference

Other subsequent reactions include:
the dissolving of the Metro
- the creation of the Great MidWest to give former Metro teams a viable BB conference (which bled the MCC of BB powers Marquette, DePaul, St.Louis and Dayton --> which led to Xavier going to the A-10)
- the creation of the WAC16 trying to gain respect by adding teams from a bigger conference than them (old SWC teams) --> which of course led to the creation of the MWC and collapse of the BigWest FB.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2003 11:40 am 
With the big east now in survival mode, what do you think about the possiblity of the big east inviting Notre Dame & letting Notre Dame keep their exclusive NBC football contract? Otherwise even with the addition of the other teams you have metioned I doubt the other BCS leagues let them keep their automatic BCS birth for long.


Top
  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2003 11:47 am 
KingCal:

While well thought out, your proposal for the "Gulf Coast" league would never work. Obviously, you are not from this part of the country. The theory about Ga Tech, Clemson and FSU being the dealmakers is a little far fetched, as well.

There is little-to-no "regional" interest among the form er SWC schools in playing the Tulsas, La Techs, ULaLa's, and UTEP's of the world. Programs like TCU, USM, and UH have traditions of competing at a much higher level (TCU and USM still do, and UH is well on its way to returning to that level). That is what I meant when I said that you must not be from this area. There is no advantage to forming a huge 12 team league just for the sake of having a playoff, when no one would care enough to go see a UTEP-Tulsa game......or a Rice-UAB game........or an ECU-SMU game. That "regional attraction" that you mentioned exists only when looking at your Rand McNally map. An analogous-and equally faulty-proposal would be the assertion that ECU is a "nature" fit for ACC expansion.....or Cincinnati for the Big 10.

If your scenario were to occur (at the top), I can assure you that the remaining CUSA football schools would opt for a much smaller (about 8 teams), more competitve reallignment (with an eye toward future shake-ups).

In addition, your "Appalachia East" league would have some truely awful football programs in it. UConn, Temple, Rutgers, Army, and Navy (almost half of the prospective members) are among the 6-8 weakest programs in the country (excusing UConn somewhat, due to its flegling status)......with virtually zero prospects for improvement based on recruiting territory or adminstrative/alumni/fan support(possible exception given for Rutgers since there is TEXT HS football in NJ......but none of it ever stays home to play college ball). Memphis, UL and UC would be crazy to move to such a new allignment; and VT, WVU, and Pitt would be crazy to allow it. The overall level of football would be worse than either the old BIG EAST, or the old CUSA...

Now, there are scenarios that might work. But, bringing in Army, Navy and Marshall and keeping Rutgers and Temple would be counterproductive to the stated goals. Marshall is viewed by all as a "paper tiger" program, i.e. the program is really just Bob Pruett. The infrastructure and resources are not there. And, once Pruett retires (which will likely be in the next 5 years, or so), that program will quickly return to the basement.

Although I am not in favor of it, a better new Big East allignment would be:

UConn (based on potential, and the great BB program)
Pitt
WVU
VTech
USF
UC
UL
Memphis

plus possibly
USM
ECU

Again, no need for 12 teams, unless it makes sense from a competitive and financial standpoint. Too many bad programs will only pull the rest of the league down. That is what lead to the breakup of the SWC; Rice, TCU and SMU were not competitive and not willing to invest enough in their programs to become competitive again.............and UH had entered a down cycle following a 2 year probation. The commish, at the time (Jacoby), refused to facilitate previous expansion opportunities- which included, at various times, inquiries from OU, OSU, Tulane and Memphis.



Top
  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2003 11:53 am 
Offline
Senior
Senior

Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 4:13 pm
Posts: 222

Quote:


Anybody remember when PennSt was admitted - not actually when they started playing in the Big11 - but when they agreed to enter? That might have been the first of the whole series of dominoes - because I think that is what spurred the SEC to expand to 12 in the first place. There seemed to be no warning that the Big10 was going to add a team before it happened - or that PennSt would join one.


The official joining date was 06/04/90.
The joined in FB for the 1993 season.
For all other sports, it was the 1992-1993 season.

You're correct, there was no real warning.
If was partly spurned on by the SEC expansion, but also because Penn State was willing. The (secretly) covetted programs by the Big Ten at that time were ND, NE & PA ST. As far as I can tell, that is still the case if push came to shove.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2003 2:30 pm 
Offline
Junior
Junior
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 05, 2003 10:29 am
Posts: 140
Penn State actively lobbied for admission to the Big East in the 1980's, but was turned away. Citing the need for extra revenues, they then demanded extra home dates from some of their traditional rivals, including Syracuse. Syracuse said no, so Penn State dropped them from their schedule beginning with the 1991 season, a decision that was made several years before the announcement of joining the Big Ten. I'm sure that they hoped Syracuse would increase the lobbying inside the Big East to add them (Syracuse and Pitt already supported their membership), but the basketball schools weren't persuaded. It was not until Penn State moved to the Big Ten, and the basketball schools realized that Pitt, Syracuse and BC would try to follow them either to the Big Ten, ACC, or higher caliber Conference USA (i.e. with Miami) that they finally woke up about football. Ironically, if the Big East had admitted Penn State in the first place, they would not be as vulnerable to the current raid.

Today, the Big Ten would probably prefer Nebraska or Notre Dame, but those schools would still have no interest. Penn State would love to have Syracuse or Pitt join the Big Ten. I believe the Big Ten would be very interested in Syracuse. It's a decent geographic fit, they get access to the NY market, and Syracuse is a hot commodity. Syracuse would likely prefer the Big Ten to the ACC. Assuming the Big Ten can't move quickly enough to grab Syracuse, though, they would probably eventually settle on Pitt. Penn State has not been happy in the Big Ten, and may be a raid target by the Big East. Not sure how much the Big Ten would care about losing Penn State, but now would be the time to make a play for Syracuse if they ever want to.


Last edited by orangefan on Wed May 14, 2003 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2003 6:50 pm 
Online
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 3811

Quote:


What do you think are the chances??


first off, the only way Army and Navy would ever be considered is if Notre Dame were in the conference for football. It's been mentioned before that during any previous discussions with conferences, Notre Dame mentions the 2 as possible FB only candidates.

Since the goal of the new conference (could very well be the Big East name, minus the hoops teams) will be to field competitive football NAD basketball, I don't know if they'd bother with ECU. If Miami, Syracuse and BC do leave, perhaps ECU for a football only member would be ideal. If everything stays as is, Louisville and cincinnati could get invites, but most likely not ECU.

_________________
Image

Image@ncaasports Image csi.com/facebook

Image
Like the new CSI Userbar? Feel free to use it here and any other forums.
You can save and host it yourself or link from here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2003 7:01 pm 
Online
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
CollegeSportsInfo Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am
Posts: 3811

Quote:
KingCal:
That "regional attraction" that you mentioned exists only when looking at your Rand McNally map. An analogous-and equally faulty-proposal would be the assertion that ECU is a "nature" fit for ACC expansion.....or Cincinnati for the Big 10.


Your points are all taken.

I do think you are missing the most crucial point, one that should be assummed. The remaining teams in CUSA and any teams brought in from the WAC are a group of outsides in college sports if indeed it got to that point. As it is, they are all still outsiders when compared to the BCS conferences. If the ACC expands to 12 (taking 3 Big East teams) and the Big East football schools who are left, bring some of the top CUSA members along, what would be left in CUSA (and imported from the WAC) would never have a chance to compete on a BCS type level. Focusing on the regional aspect is a means of strengthening those programs by making them more available to the fans. Look at the WAC. Not alot of fan travel between Tulsa and Boise. But TCU vs UTEP could be a strong draw.

By the way, last time I was at SM it was for a game against ECU. It seemed to me that there was a good amount of interest.

_________________
Image

Image@ncaasports Image csi.com/facebook

Image
Like the new CSI Userbar? Feel free to use it here and any other forums.
You can save and host it yourself or link from here.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2003 8:10 pm 
Offline
Junior
Junior

Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 9:53 pm
Posts: 104
Location: Detroit

Quote:
I believe the Big Ten would be very interested in Syracuse. It's a decent geographic fit, they get access to the NY market, and Syracuse is a hot commodity. Syracuse would likely prefer the Big Ten to the ACC. Assuming the Big Ten can't move quickly enough to grab Syracuse, though, they would probably eventually settle on Pitt. Penn State has not been happy in the Big Ten, and may be a raid target by the Big East. Not sure how much the Big Ten would care about losing Penn State, but now would be the time to make a play for Syracuse if they ever want to.


The Big11 could have had Syracuse at any time in the past - and the lack of any attempt to "make a play" for them is most telling. At the time they added PennSt, the Big11 could have taken any other school in the east - but they didn't. Doesn't take much to put two and two together.

It's amazing to me that so many people think this BigEast team or that BigEast team would be of interest to the Big11 when the Big11 never made any effort to even test the waters with these schools - despite being just one team short of 12 - and a $12-$15 million championship game. There is a reason they stay at 11 teams - they want NotreDame - and aren't too interested in expansion if it isn't NotreDame.

Just looking at the numbers:

In the BigEast, Syracuse was taking in basically only BB money whenever Miami won the conference (because Miami was allowed to keep all of the BCS $$ when they won the conference - which was most of the time). The rest of the bowls usually pay for the trip and a few extra bucks - which when divided by 8 teams doesn't amount to much. The BB and TV money, on the other hand, was divided equally across the conference.

In the Big11, they would have a fair share of total revenue (often 2 BCS bowls, 4-5 other bowls plus a share of a better TV package and comparable BB money) - even without winning anything themselves. That share is considerably more than a BB and TV share of BigEast money.

That makes the only reasonable explanation for the two never getting together is lack of interest on the Big11 side. Same can be said for Pitt.


Last edited by nert on Wed May 14, 2003 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
 

 




Looking for College Sports apparel? Support our partner:








Support Our Partners: Search Engine Marketing - Search Engine Optimization - Search Engine Training - Online Marketing for Restuarants

Subway Map Shirts - Food and Travel

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group