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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:50 pm 
Only current BIG EAST members are listed in the two conferences to emerge from a hypothetical football/basketball split

BIG EAST
DePaul
Georgetown
Marquette
Notre Dame
Providence
Saint John's
Seton Hall
Villanova

"Metro"
Cincinnati
Connecticut
Louisville
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
South Florida
Syracuse
West Virginia

Does the BIG EAST (basketball) add additional members (e.g. Dayton, Xavier) or does it simply play a 14-game conference schedule (double round-robin) to allow adequate out-of-conference scheduling against the "football" schools (i.e. UConn-Providence, G'town-Syracuse, etc.)?


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:45 am 
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Hard to say, Mr. Ouija. A lot of a water will go under the bridge before this is all sorted out. Will ND stay with this group? Who knows. Will the Midwest members want to expand into the Midwest to balance the travel? Will Villanova upgrade their fb program between now & then & move to the "Metro" group? Either move - ND or 'Nova - would create the need for at least one more member. 'Nova is the more important of the 2 because of the Philly market. Certainly you don't need more than 8 in a conference, but there will also be plenty of candidates should they decide to growl, but they won't expand just for the sake of adding members. They will look for value-added & new markets for a TV package.


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:42 am 
Notre Dame became a member of the BIG EAST because of Georgetown, Providence, Saint John's, Seton Hall, Villanova...Notre Dame became a member of the BIG EAST knowing that its closest conference opponents would be Pittsburgh and West Virginia...

Notre Dame could probably still be a "bowl partner" of the "Metro" schools, even if they were not members of the same basketball conference, and theoretically even C-USA or the Mountain West could enter into "bowl partner" arrangements with Notre Dame; granted, this would spread ND's clout with individual bowl games a little thin if the arrangement were expanded beyond a single conference...that being said, Notre Dame's entry into the BIG EAST did not coincide with the "bowl partner" arrangement...the "bowl partner" arrangement emerged a full three years after Notre Dame began BIG EAST basketball competition...

Also, it would seem as though the presence of Notre Dame would hamper the "Metro" from adding an additional FOOTBALL-PLAYING member to allow for an eight-game schedule with evenly distributed home and road games...

As for Villanova...

They had the "UConn option" but chose not to pursuit it...as for the stadium issues, repeated ad nauseam herein, it appears as though Villanova would have to defer Linc privileges to an existent Temple football program, and would probably have to play home games at multiple sites (Franklin Field?), in a type of arrangement that undoubtedly contributed to Temple's expulsion from the BIG EAST (sharing Veterans Stadium with the Phillies and Eagles; playing at Franklin Field; moving home games to East Rutherford and RFK Stadium)...it seems as though the UConn elevation project arose in conjuction with the proposed relocation of the New England Patriots to Hartford...granted, fate intervened, and UConn doesn't share a domed NFL stadium located in Hartford...

Let's take a look at the options...

Notre Dame to the "Metro"...

"Metro" Conference
Cincinnati
Connecticut
Louisville
Notre Dame*
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
South Florida
Syracuse
West Virginia

BIG EAST Conference
Dayton*
DePaul
Georgetown
Marquette
Providence
Saint John's
Saint Louis*
Seton Hall
Villanova
Xavier*

Scheduling based on "Eastern" (GU, PC, SJU, SHU, VU) and "Western" (UD, DePaul, MU, SLU, XU) sections, with intrasectional opponents being scheduled in a double round-robin...a limited number (one?) of intersectional opponents would be played home-and-away during a given season, but all intersectional opponents would be played at least once...

Villanova to the "Metro"...

"Metro" Conference
Cincinnati
Connecticut
Louisville
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
South Florida
Syracuse
Villanova*
West Virginia

BIG EAST Conference
DePaul
Georgetown
Marquette
Notre Dame
Providence
Saint John's
Saint Joseph's*
Seton Hall

Notre Dame and Villanova to the "Metro"...

"Metro" Conference
Cincinnati
Connecticut
Louisville
Notre Dame*
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
South Florida
Syracuse
Villanova*
West Virginia

BIG EAST Conference
Dayton*
DePaul
Georgetown
Marquette
Providence
Saint John's
Saint Joseph's*
Saint Louis*
Seton Hall
Xavier*

Scheduling based on "Eastern" and "Western" sections, with intrasectional opponents being scheduled in a double round-robin...a limited number (one?) of intersectional opponents would be played home-and-away during a given season, but all intersectional opponents would be played at least once...


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:53 pm 
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Quote:
it seems as though the UConn elevation project arose in conjuction with the proposed relocation of the New England Patriots to Hartford...granted, fate intervened, and UConn doesn't share a domed NFL stadium located in Hartford...


It may seem from a distance that the UConn move to I-A was linked to the proposed Patriots move, but this was not the case. Lew Perkins started lobbying for this almost from the time he became AD. Certainly by the time BE Football was formed in 1991, these discussions were public. In a prophetic moment, Perkins predicted that the future of UConn bb would be linked to the development of a I-A fb program. this was a very powerful statement in bb crazy CT. Study committees were formed. Campus visits were made. An organized infrastructure in the way of alumni support & the formal enlistment of big contributing donors as "friends of UConn" were already established, dating back to a review of the bb program in the mid-'80s that resulted in the hiring of Jim Calhoun. The road to I-A fb actually wound its way through 2 failed attempts to bring the Patriots to Hartford - the first in '93-'94. When the BE made its offer to accept upgraded programs, it was an easy sell in CT which was ready for the move. This move was going to happen with or without the Patriots.

The attempt to bring the Patriots simply allowed a corrupt governor to hitch his political wagon to UConn sports & the desire in Hartford to be major league - especially in the wake of the Whalers' move to Charlotte. It also allowed him to hand out public monies to his friends in the construction industry & to receive kick-backs & favors from them in return. The joint stadium concept was just a way to sell a public works project to the voters.


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 7:28 pm 
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Ahh Lew Perkins. Made a new I-A program in UConn, closed the one at Wichita State down.


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:46 am 
pure speculation, but:

Big East

East:
Holy Cross (added)
Providnce
Seton Hall
St. John
Villanova
Georgetown

West
DePaul
Marquette
Notre Dame (stays independent in FB)
St. Louis (added)
Xavier (added)
Dayton (added)




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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:58 am 
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Quote:
pure speculation, but:

Big East

East:
Holy Cross (added)
Providnce
Seton Hall
St. John
Villanova
Georgetown

West
DePaul
Marquette
Notre Dame (stays independent in FB)
St. Louis (added)
Xavier (added)
Dayton (added)


Not bad, 12 is good for hoops as well if the geography is spread out like this conference would be. If ND leaves you could put Detroit or Butler in for them.


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:19 pm 
Seems like unnecessary dilution of the product...also, isn't part of the reason Notre Dame is in the BIG EAST was so it could play Georgetown, Saint John's, etal...no offense to Holy Cross and Saint Louis, but the "Catholic-8" have all made Final Four appearances in the past thirty years...Dayton is a "historical" independent (see DePaul, Marquette, Notre Dame)...the last two decades of Xavier basketball speak for themselves...Holy Cross would provide the "Catholic-8" with a New England presence to complement Providence, but the "Patriot League experiment" undoubtedly set the program back a few decades...Saint Louis would provide access to a major Catholic market, but history isn't really on SLU's side either...two consecutive NIT runner-up finishes (1989-1990) were good enough to secure a charter membership in the Great Midwest, but the four NCAA appearances since (1994-1995, 1998, 2000) might not be good enough...


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:22 pm 
might not be good enough for the BIG EAST...and yes, Notre Dame (begrudgingly?) acceded to the BIG EAST-16...


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:23 pm 
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Quote:
Seems like unnecessary dilution of the product...also, isn't part of the reason Notre Dame is in the BIG EAST was so it could play Georgetown, Saint John's, etal...no offense to Holy Cross and Saint Louis, but the "Catholic-8" have all made Final Four appearances in the past thirty years...Dayton is a "historical" independent (see DePaul, Marquette, Notre Dame)...the last two decades of Xavier basketball speak for themselves...Holy Cross would provide the "Catholic-8" with a New England presence to complement Providence, but the "Patriot League experiment" undoubtedly set the program back a few decades...Saint Louis would provide access to a major Catholic market, but history isn't really on SLU's side either...two consecutive NIT runner-up finishes (1989-1990) were good enough to secure a charter membership in the Great Midwest, but the four NCAA appearances since (1994-1995, 1998, 2000) might not be good enough...


Good points but if I was the Catholic "7" I would make sure I added Xavier or SLU on just in case ND decides to bolt or do something different.


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:00 pm 
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Quote:
Only current BIG EAST members are listed in the two conferences to emerge from a hypothetical football/basketball split

BIG EAST
DePaul
Georgetown
Marquette
Notre Dame
Providence
Saint John's
Seton Hall
Villanova

"Metro"
Cincinnati
Connecticut
Louisville
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
South Florida
Syracuse
West Virginia

Does the BIG EAST (basketball) add additional members (e.g. Dayton, Xavier) or does it simply play a 14-game conference schedule (double round-robin) to allow adequate out-of-conference scheduling against the "football" schools (i.e. UConn-Providence, G'town-Syracuse, etc.)?



That's a nice breakdown and something many of us seeing as possible. A few notes:

* The Big East basketball schools have little reason for a larger expansion of teams. The core of the group would still exist and they will get an attractive TV contract. With that said, there is little reason to add more schools since the potential markets added would all be smaller than the existing ones. That said...

* I could see the BEBB league adding 1 to 2 schools. I don't see them expanding from 8 to 12. 9 or 10 adds 1-2 new markets without diluting the revenue per school. Likely candidates? Xavier tops the list to replace the departed Cincinnati market. Dayton is a great program, but I see St. Louis and Charlotte topping the list abouve Dayton. Umass is a strtch but worth recognizing. If new coach Ford can turn the program around, it would bring back the Boston market, since UMass basketball in the 90's was bigger in Boston (so many alumni live there) than BC basketball has ever been in that city.

* Notre Dame: It's doubtful they would ever associate themselves soley with the likes of Cincy, WVU, South Florida and the rest of the BE. If they were to leave the BEBB schools, the Big Ten would top the list.

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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:01 pm 
I've cited before the same line-up Dave offers above, but I did so acknowledging that it stems from the common outsider's desire to put everything in order: How we would all hate to see 1-2 schools that otherwise perfectly fit the mold (like St. Louis) left out in the dark!

Alas, I'm not sure which size membership would be best for a AA/AAA league like this. On paper it would be great to have near equal 8-member midwestern and eastern leagues that could also capture schools like Creighton, Detroit-Mercy, Duquesne, Sienna, etc. But Marquette and DePaul were tapped rather hurredly, and since ND HAS TO pillage the northeast... ::)

If there are cost-benefits to divisional play for other sports then 12 may be the magic number. Otherwise I suspect it will be 10 with Xavier/Dayton competing with St. Louis/Holy Cross competing for access. Perhaps we should research the institutional profiles to consider deeper facets of institutional compatibility?


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:11 pm 

Quote:
With that said, there is little reason to add more schools since the potential markets added would all be smaller than the existing ones.
St. Louis, Boston, Detroit and Cincinatti, even if smaller than existing markets, aren't exactly small or negligible, either.


Quote:
Likely candidates? Xavier tops the list to replace the departed Cincinnati market. Dayton is a great program, but I see St. Louis and Charlotte topping the list abouve Dayton. Umass is a strtch but worth recognizing. If new coach Ford can turn the program around, it would bring back the Boston market, since UMass basketball in the 90's was bigger in Boston (so many alumni live there) than BC basketball has ever been in that city.
I don't see this group actively soliciting schools with discernably different (ie: non-private, non-Catholic) profiles. After the wranglings over the fate of the BE they should seek near-unanimous institutional compatibility. And while Charlotte and UMass may provide the highest appeal, the margin of difference over, say, Holy Cross, Dayton or others is probably not worth the risk in allowing future in-fighting. Especially over a UMass program where some supporters are still touting a future in 1-A. I fully expect them to embrace the concept of a collegiate level CYO, and it would have great TV appeal.


Quote:
* Notre Dame: It's doubtful they would ever associate themselves soley with the likes of Cincy, WVU, South Florida and the rest of the BE. If they were to leave the BEBB schools, the Big Ten would top the list.
The 1-A members of the BE currently have superior facilities, and comprehensive national exposure via their football, to provide a more stable, wealthier home for any member. Without regard for the university profile, ND's athletics would prefer to stay with the 1-A members, IMO. But I doubt ND will be in position to dictate that condition and will find the Catholic schools allow the best combination of home for all sports and independence for football. IMO, anyway.


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:14 pm 
Isn't "Sienna" a crayon? Anyway, the "old" MCC (1979-1994) was a sort of "2nd Tier" (3rd Tier?) BIG EAST in terms of demographics...

Butler (1979-)
Dayton (1988-1993)
Detroit (1980-)
Duquesne (1992-1993)
Evansville (1979-1994) [non-Catholic]
LaSalle (1992-1995)
Loyola-IL (1979-)
Marquette (1989-1991)
Oklahoma City (1979-1985) [non-Catholic]
Oral Roberts (1979-1987) [non-Catholic]
Saint Louis (1982-1991)
Xavier (1979-1995)

Notre Dame was an associate member (no men's basketball) but men's basketball apparently entered a short-lived "schedule alliance" with the MCC in the early 1990s...see the Horizon League history page and look at the list of "pre-formation" institutions that weren't charter MCC members...includes Air Force, Bradley [non-Catholic], Creighton, DePaul, and also later entrants such as Dayton and Marquette...

The MCC/Horizon ventured eastwards (1992) before the BIG EAST ventured westwards (1995)...


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:56 pm 
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Mr Ouija, Metro looks good for the football division name, however, would call the other the Catholic division. There is reason for making that statement.

Isn't part of the reason the conference remained together and expanded to 16 were to ensure both conferences could split in five years if agreed a both would qualify as division 1 conferences. Isn't there some bi-law if you call it that in the NCAA that states a conference must be together with a certain amout of teams with a certain amount of time to retain the auto NCAA bid. My guess would be that both groups could split and ask the NCAA to retain auto NCAA bids for both groups. Otherwise, the NCAA could make one group wait a certain amout of years for auto bid. Granted the BE basketball schools would not necessarily have to rely on an auto bid, however, all conference want the champion to qualify for the NCAA without using an an large bid.

So, this would imply that Notre Dame will always go with the Catholic schools or answer to the Pope. Just kidding, can't see Notre Dame going back on its word to the other Catholic schools and be the primary reason the schools would loss auto NCAA bid.

As for NCAA revenue sharing, I am sure this is already agreed on how this would be handled if a split were to occur. If not, the basketball schools are taking a big risk on the football schools and Notre Dame remaining together. The basketball schools are too smart to not have this in the contract. Especially after football school have caused the recent havoc in the conference with three leaving for the ACC.

As for expanding with extra teams, why would any basketball league expand to more than 8 teams regardless of markets? 12 teams are only created because the NCAA requires 12 to have a football championship game else the ACC would have remained with 11. Basketbal suffers as a result of this football requirment for unbalanced schedules.

Football is a different type of sport and expanding to 10 would allow for teams to move up a down in strength on certain years. With recent 12 game regular schedule, round robin is possible in both major revenue sports streams.

That is primary reason to attempt to identify two football schools and no basketball only schools. Notre Dame will go with the basketball schools unless NBC drops its TV contract. In that case, its a big question mark on Big 10 membership and the risk the basketball only schools are apparently willing to take at the possiblity of losing NCAA automatic bid.


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