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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:00 pm 
Others have thrown out Valpariso. It's Lutheran but a) that's fairly close to Catholic given the accords between the leaders of the two faiths, and b) their athletics are on par with those of the BE Catholics. Plus this would tap into the MN, Twin Cities market and provide another regional rival for Marquette and DePaul.

Plus you've Canisius in Buffalo, Manhattan U, Loyola MD...

Perhaps a new classification is in order: D-F, for all faith based institutions! ;)



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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:45 pm 
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As for expanding with extra teams, why would any basketball league expand to more than 8 teams regardless of markets? 12 teams are only created because the NCAA requires 12 to have a football championship game else the ACC would have remained with 11. Basketbal suffers as a result of this football requirment for unbalanced schedules.

Football is a different type of sport and expanding to 10 would allow for teams to move up a down in strength on certain years. With recent 12 game regular schedule, round robin is possible in both major revenue sports streams.


Lash, we know you love the round-robin schedule and despise 12 team conferences. But does bb really suffer in 12 team conferences? Hardly. The main trouble is when some rivals have to split their annual games from two to one but in lots of cases its better. Take the Big 12 for instance, other than Oklahoma and Texas none of the Big 12 North schools want to see Texas Tech or Baylor twice a year and same with the South schools. Its a conference in a conference setup that also allows for more attractive non-conference games as well. Now take the Catholic league, it could work this way very well for them in a 12 team setup bc of geography. Now Providence or St. John's like seeing DePaul on the scheudle do they want to make the trip to Chicago every year or rotate it. It would make their travel easier by eliminated yearly trips to certain destinations and strengthing rivalries that need to be kept.

Also gunnerfan, Valpo is in Indiana not Minnesota and its fairly close to Chicago.


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:54 pm 

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Also gunnerfan, Valpo is in Indiana not Minnesota and its fairly close to Chicago.
Spoo!

Knowing its Lutheran background and how many of my in laws (from MN) support the Crusaders, I just always assumed it was in MN!!! I never followed them and never thought to look it up. :-[

My bad, and thanks for the heads up.

'Course, now I want to know... What the hades is up with a Lutheran University in Indiana???? :D


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:55 pm 
Valpo is D-I...other than that, their "athletic par" comparable to the BIG EAST seems confined to one Bryce Drew shot seven years ago...as for the Twin Cities reference, is the suggestion being made that Valpo is a sort of "Lutheran Notre Dame" in waiting? Valpo only became "dominant" in the Mid-Con (whatever that means) after its core bolted to the MCC/Horizon, and wouldn't even resonate nationally if not for the Bryce Drew shot (granted, there was another game after that, but involved 13-seed Valpo beating 12-seed Florida State, and as is sometimes the case, one of them simply has to advance to the Sweet 16)...

Valpo is probably a better fit in the Mid-Con now (i.e. Centenary, Oakland, Oral Roberts) than it was in the "pre-apocalyptic" Mid-Con (1982-1994), but that's not to say that the Horizon League might not have been better served to choose Valpo over Youngstown State in its 2001 expansion...


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:03 pm 
Wait, you seriously thought Valpo was in Minnesota...

Well, anyway, that negates the "Lutheran Notre Dame" assertion, although both are located in northern Indiana...

Minnesota is probably the largest "one D-I" state in terms of population...others include Hawaii, Maine, North Dakota, South Dakota, Vermont, and Wyoming...thanks to Dartmouth, even New Hampshire has more than one D-I school...and no being D-I in hockey doesn't count...

Minnesota's historical connections to Scandanavian culture and Lutheran beliefs are duly noted...


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:05 pm 
http://www.thenccaa.org/


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:24 pm 

Quote:
Wait, you seriously thought Valpo was in Minnesota...
Yep. God's honest truth (intended). I would've bet serious money on it. Like I said, for the better part of 10 years my in-laws and others have dropped the Valpo name in various discussions, so much so that I made an assumption and never found the need to carry it further.

I do know a bit about their facilities, and while on-field performance may not rate up their with, say, Georgetown basketball, the school sure seems a quality institution from the pictures and reports I've seen. 4 fellow church mates went there, typical Lutheran newsletters, etc. (Guess what kind of church our family goes to? :D )

Anywho... "After further review, the player was found to have been slightly googly-moogly.No official nomination can be made, and we will replay the post."

- - - - -


Quote:
Others have thrown out Valpariso. It's Lutheran but a) that's fairly close to Catholic given the accords between the leaders of the two faiths, and b) their athletics are modeled after those of the BE Catholics. Plus none of their students are funny lookin, in a general sort of way dontcha know! But since it didn't involve Georgia Tech I simply kept quiet. You betcha.



;D


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:50 pm 
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SportsKC, the Big 12 basketball coaches always compained about 12 team league. For example Kansas coach would always complain when Kansas had to play at Oklahoma and Texas to win the division and Missouri would only have to play one or maybe none of the two away.
It is not about the issue if I like round robin, its just fair for all teams. Each team play the same teams home and away.

No one seems to answer my question on NCAA automatic bid requiring 8 teams for certain amout of years in same conference!!! This probably had more to do with Big East having 16 current members than any other item.

I totally agree with Friarfan. In order for the basektball only schools to expand behond 8 would have to include markets generating enough TV revenue to make up for the additional teams. Maybe 9 teams would work and maximum of 10 would be my guess.

I would bet the Big East basketball schools would never expand to 12 regardless of markets if the schools eventually split.

The only reason the old Big East took Pitt for 9 was to keep the all sports league from becoming a reality and taking Syracuse and BC with them. Then came Miami for 10 to shore up football and the rest is history with an unwieldily 14, then 12, then the big 16.


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 6:40 pm 
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I think its 6 teams for the auto bid.


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:05 am 
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Lash,

Its 8 teams with 6 having been together 5 years (and all 6 being Division I members for at least 8 years-although that last requirement may be reduced to 5 from reading some of the NDSU/SDSU discussions). So after 5 years either half would be eligible-BUT-it is unclear whether BOTH would have an auto bid or only the ones "remaining" in the Big East.

The MWC met the requirements back in 1998, but they left the WAC and so were not eligible for an automatic bid. The WAC didn't meet the requirements at the time as most of the remaining schools were new.

The rules were amended to preclude the possibility of making an exception to the rules (it used to happen regularly-MWC and WAC got exceptions and got auto bids before they qualified).

However, for both halves of the BE, an auto bid in basketball seems irrelevant, except maybe that it makes the conference tourney meaningful. Both halves should have multiple teams invited to the NCAA. The auto bid for other sports, might matter (most other sports only require 6 members).


Nice explanation, Bullet. The automatic bb bid would stay with the bb-only schools & the fb schools would have to wait the required number of years. I think it's 3?

Although BE members have agreed to allow for a split to occur after 5 years without penalty, this only means that they are only waving exit fees. Someone still has to initiate the request for a split. In such a case, it's not really a split, it's notification by a school(s) of its intention to withdraw/exit from the conference. The members who remain intact as a conference have rights to the auto bid, the NCAA credits & the conference name unless a buy-out is negotiated. Even in the event of a buy-out, there is no way for the exiting members to retain the automatic bid because this is regulated by NCAA by-laws. Money & the name can be transferred but not the bid.


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:13 am 
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Quote:
Likely candidates? Xavier tops the list to replace the departed Cincinnati market.


Quinn, I agree with almost all of your points - especially your comments about ND & Umass. However, I disagree that the BE would ever want Xavier. The key to the BE's success that all programs that came together to start the league were #1 in their market with the exceptions of Georgetown & Seton Hall. While Maryland was #1 in the DC market at the time, Georgetown had become competitive with them & was on the rise, as evidenced by their battle in the 1980 NCAA tournament. In the case of Seton Hall, they were only included after Rutgers had rejected an invitation & the other members only took them because they wanted the Meadowlands Arena.

In the case of Cincinnati, they are arguably #4 in the Cincinnati market - behind Cincy, Ohio State, & Kentucky. They just do not fit the mold of what the BE has historically sought.


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:27 am 
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Quote:
Lash,

Its 8 teams with 6 having been together 5 years (and all 6 being Division I members for at least 8 years-although that last requirement may be reduced to 5 from reading some of the NDSU/SDSU discussions). So after 5 years either half would be eligible-BUT-it is unclear whether BOTH would have an auto bid or only the ones "remaining" in the Big East.

The MWC met the requirements back in 1998, but they left the WAC and so were not eligible for an automatic bid. The WAC didn't meet the requirements at the time as most of the remaining schools were new.

The rules were amended to preclude the possibility of making an exception to the rules (it used to happen regularly-MWC and WAC got exceptions and got auto bids before they qualified).

However, for both halves of the BE, an auto bid in basketball seems irrelevant, except maybe that it makes the conference tourney meaningful. Both halves should have multiple teams invited to the NCAA. The auto bid for other sports, might matter (most other sports only require 6 members).


Nice explanation, Bullet. The automatic bb bid would stay with the bb-only schools & the fb schools would have to wait the required number of years. I think it's 3?

Although BE members have agreed to allow for a split to occur after 5 years without penalty, this only means that they are only waving exit fees. Someone still has to initiate the request for a split. In such a case, it's not really a split, it's notification by a school(s) of its intention to withdraw/exit from the conference. The members who remain intact as a conference have rights to the auto bid, the NCAA credits & the conference name unless a buy-out is negotiated. Even in the event of a buy-out, there is no way for the exiting members to retain the automatic bid because this is regulated by NCAA by-laws. Money & the name can be transferred but not the bid.


Not necessarily. The rule is in place, but the NCAA could waive that for the BE football league. The MWC formation was pushed along faster than expected and I would expect the same to happen with the BEFB league, especially with UConn, Syracuse and Louisville involved.

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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:52 pm 
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Quinn, my memory is the same as Bullet's that the NCAA has agreed by rule not to extend any such waivers in the future. I agree though that it is not likely to make much difference, given the number of power teams in either half of the conference. I remember when the Big East started & the 3-year wait period at that time. Syracuse pulled an upse & won the tournament the year it was played on their court (1981?). They had finished 4th (?) in the regular season & did not receive a bid. Of course, that was, I believe before expansion to 64, so there is less risk now for a middle of the pack teamnot to get picked if they won the tournament & it is rare indeed these days for a last place team to come out of nowhere &win such a power conference because of the fatigue factor in a 4-day tournament.


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 Post subject: BIG EAST: 2010
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:37 pm 
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I bet if the BE fb schools split off they will get an auto bid pretty fast. Considering that they are members of the BCS and have some of the best bb programs in the country.


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