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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:06 pm 
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The BE is laughing at ALL THE CRAP the originates with BE experts on split ups.There is no BE split up.There is a great tv contract for football and bb .There are lots of non bcs bowls and the bcs bowl.The BE tv market is clearly superior to any other conference.(The academic standing of the cusa leftovers IS CLEARLY BELOW that of the BE.)THE BE does have to model itself after anyother league,it just needs to be successful which is and will be.Certainly there are other possibilities for football including Villanova(alreading spending over 3 million a year on football,the new status of 1AA and the arrival of ODU to the A10/Colonial by 2009 may change some things)


Your right TS2. The BE is not going to split. They don't have to. The good teams just keep leaving. (Miami, VT, and BC). The great teams aren't allowed to join. (Penn ST.) Any the teams that are thrown out (Temple) are finding greener pastures in our good ole affiliate the MAC, that you and Trained Geese have the BE kissing on the a$$.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:39 am 
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Your right TS2. The BE is not going to split. They don't have to. The good teams just keep leaving. (Miami, VT, and BC). The great teams aren't allowed to join. (Penn ST.) Any the teams that are thrown out (Temple) are finding greener pastures in our good ole affiliate the MAC, that you and Trained Geese have the BE kissing on the a$$.


This is one of the silliest posts I have read in a long time.

1. Penn State was never refused membership in Big East Football, which would have welcomed their application. It has been reported that they were turned down by the Big East when it was a basketball-only conference. Penn State has never been anything but a mediocre basketball program at best, so why would a basketball conference have been interested in them? Furthermore, Joe Pa has denied this report & has said that they never applied for Big East membership. He has said that they initiated talks with Big East football members (only BC & Syracuse at the time) about joining with Penn State to form an Eastern all-sports conference. Since Big East basketball was the hottest ticket in town at the time, BC & Syracuse were understandably not interested in sacrificing that. Penn State, on the other hand, had nothing to lose. From the football perspective, many of college football's best programs were independent at the time, so there was no incentive for BC & Syracuse to join a conference to upgrade football.

2. The good teams just keep leaving? Please tell me what programs will continue this exodus of good programs leaving. And for what destination will they leave? The ACC pulled off a one time coup. The Big Ten doesn't seem interested in a championship game, so 11 works for them. Are Eastern schools leaving for the Pac Ten? Or are 12 member conferences expanding?

3. And silliest of all is the idea that Temple found greener pastures in the MAC! :o ;D ::)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:46 pm 
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Your right TS2. The BE is not going to split. They don't have to. The good teams just keep leaving. (Miami, VT, and BC). The great teams aren't allowed to join. (Penn ST.) Any the teams that are thrown out (Temple) are finding greener pastures in our good ole affiliate the MAC, that you and Trained Geese have the BE kissing on the a$$.


This is one of the silliest posts I have read in a long time.

1. Penn State was never refused membership in Big East Football, which would have welcomed their application. It has been reported that they were turned down by the Big East when it was a basketball-only conference. Penn State has never been anything but a mediocre basketball program at best, so why would a basketball conference have been interested in them? Furthermore, Joe Pa has denied this report & has said that they never applied for Big East membership. He has said that they initiated talks with Big East football members (only BC & Syracuse at the time) about joining with Penn State to form an Eastern all-sports conference. Since Big East basketball was the hottest ticket in town at the time, BC & Syracuse were understandably not interested in sacrificing that. Penn State, on the other hand, had nothing to lose. From the football perspective, many of college football's best programs were independent at the time, so there was no incentive for BC & Syracuse to join a conference to upgrade football.

2. The good teams just keep leaving? Please tell me what programs will continue this exodus of good programs leaving. And for what destination will they leave? The AC pulled off a one time coup. The Big Ten doesn't seem interested in a championship game, so 11 works for them. Are Eastern schools leaving for the PAC Ten? Or are 12 member conferences expanding?

3. And silliest of all is the idea that Temple found greener pastures in the MAC! :o ;D ::)


Friar fan, thanks for the comments. I am pleased you opened and elaborated on the discussion.

Carolina Knights can defend his own posts. As you responded to another one of his posts, he tends to write well and comes across as very thoughtful. Again, while he can speak for himself, I interpret his reply as a toungeNcheek response, on the undisguised sarcastic side, toward TS2, who can be quite opinionated, and sometimes inflaming, in support of the status quo in the East along with presenting "alliance developments" many struggle to believe or accept. No doubt, you are quite familiar with TS2's methodology.

I do not discredit TS2 specifically on what may be interpreted as his support of the status quo. He can speak for himself, which he indeed shall, as can Carolina Knight, a Rutgers alum, I understand, and a BE fan who comes across as open to BE expansion.

Certainly, there is a line of thinking within ranks of the BE (namely the BB schools/Notre Dame) that favor the status quo somewhat. That is not to say that "some" of the BE interests may not share similar thoughts. From reading your posts and perceiving you are not as defensively standing on this compared to TS2 comments, I gather you are oriented to supporting what currently exists in the BE, but also receptive to incremental change that doesn't work against any of the current schools and solidifies the eastern base. I don't want to interpret your views and you may further respond, but I did want to say how I perceive your thoughtful posts that often offer your historical perspective of how things developed in the BE. TS2's style will often include, coarse, negative language directed at anyone or any school or conference that he perceives, in any way, would invade or take something away from the current composition and commodities of the BE. His counter responses and advocacies that involve the eastern services academies, scheduling matters, bowls, TV, etc. can generate quick disagreements.

Lash is also a vigorous BE fan and frequent poster. While he can change perspectives frequently and confuse those not regularly following the discussion flow, his enthusiasm for the conference is obvious and sincere. The Big East boards are loaded with BE fans acting as change agents. Some of the ideas could startle even the most detached fan. That's all part of the chat.

We do know about the ACC raid on the BE. Even in the last several days, frequent posts have been made about which team the Big 10 would add, if not Notre Dame, should there be a Big 10 #12. For most, it is fun and total speculation concerning a matter that is not on the immediate horizon. As you know, a BE team is often mentioned.

As to the Penn State and the BE thing, I do not want to get into this. Again taking liberties again to speak for perhaps some others (and not to deliberately speak for Carolina Knights), I believe a point trying to be made is that had Penn State, as under-achieved as they were perceived in BB, been invited into the BB BE at the time, perhaps, just perhaps, the later resulting BE conference would have emerged with Penn State being included with perhaps a couple others that are currently not there having not left later. This view, is basically saying the schools that would ultimately compromise the collective BE could have been more visionary. I am not going to rehash the Pitt factor either, or the reasons Penn State now-a-days is not playing more of their old rivals OCC and who are now in the BE. However, even if Penn State BB was somehow embraced at the time, there is no assurance they would not have later opted for the Big 10, nor forestalled some kind of later ACC raid. Yes, things may have been different, but it is water over the dam and no use predicting "what ifs". The decision is part of the history of the BE, and people can read what they want into it as to the current BE mindset and the influence it may have had on the pattern of thinking that has since emerged. Some claim Penn State did not go about it the right way beforehand, so the arguments can go on and on. What happened, happened.

Have the Big East made mistakes in hindsight? Yes. Are mistakes unique to the Big East? Look at the WAC and MWC history.

As to Temple, maybe the MAC thing is the right answer for them for the time being. Former and retired bb coach Chaney who was openly against the school moving from the Atlantic 10 in bb worked against the "all-sports" association at Temple. Some posters are hoping the MAC connection will give the school time to improve their act.

Friarfan, you do offer a perspective on the Big East that offers a constructive reply to the more extreme perspectives in terms of future expansion. I would include the total embracing of the status quo for the long term as one of the extremes, for down the road, external factors, often unpredictable, can grow that can mandate change.


Last edited by sec03 on Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:32 pm 
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sec8 what ever one sends out, one gets sent back.For the most part my replies about cusa leftovers are reflective of their desire destroy the BE for their own benefit.Long distance BE fans by internet are hardly reflective of the real BE seen.The number of BE fans who regularly travel thousands of miles is a highly selective group.However,the BE is doing well in bowls and tv and a split is not happening.Comments about alliances with Army and Navy and the BE are a lot more believable than the merger of the mwc and the BE,


Last edited by tigersharktwo on Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:59 pm 
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[quote author=friar fan board=general thread=1143942288 post=1149932344]


Friar fan, thanks for the comments. I am pleased you opened and elaborated on the discussion.

Carolina Knights can defend his own posts. As you responded to another one of his posts, he tends to write well and comes across as very thoughtful.

Certainly, there is a line of thinking within ranks of the BE (namely the BB schools/Notre Dame) that favor the status quo somewhat.

From reading your posts and perceiving you are not as defensively standing on this, I gather you are oriented to supporting what currently exists in the BE, but also receptive to incremental change that doesn't work against any of the current schools and solidifies the eastern base.

As to the Penn State and the BE thing, I do not want to get into this. Again taking liberties again to speak for perhaps some others (and not to deliberately speak for Carolina Knights), I believe a point trying to be made is that had Penn State, as under-achieved as they were perceived in BB, been invited into the BB BE at the time, perhaps, just perhaps, the later resulting FBI conference would have emerged with Penn State being included with perhaps a couple others that are currently not there having not left later. This view, is basically saying the schools that would ultimately compromise the collective BE could have been more visionary. I am not going to rehash the Pitt factor either, or the reasons Penn State now-a-days is not playing more of their old rivals OTC and who are now in the BE. However, even if Penn State BB was somehow embraced at the time, there is no assurance they would not have later opted for the Big 10, nor forestalled some kind of later AC raid. Yes, things may have been different, but it is water over the dam
Have the Big East made mistakes in hindsight? Yes. Are mistakes unique to the Big East? Look at the WAC and MWC history.

As to Temple, maybe the MAC thing is the right answer for them for the time being. Former and retired bb coach Chaney who was openly against the school moving from the Atlantic 10 in bb worked against the "all-sports" association at Temple. Some posters are hoping the MAC connection will give the school time to improve their act.


Thanks, Sec03, I enjoy the exchange.

My apologies to carolina knight if my comment was offensive. Maybe I should have said: "I strongly disagree with his post." It was not meant as a personal attack, just a disagreement with this particular post.

I actually believe in incremental change for the football side of the Big East although I am open to Lash's more radical idea of a BE/MWC merger of sorts. However, I also think that the Big East needs surgery & that the football half & the Catholic half should split.

The Big East certainly is deserving of some criticism. However, I am tired of the repeated contention that they should have admitted Penn State & that this would have solved their problems. This takes the view that football should have been the conference's priority. This makes no sense. The conference was founded by a group of 6 basketball schools + BC & Syracuse. Basketball was their priority & should have been. There are those today who even claim that the basketball-only schools are screwing up the conference & should get out of the way. Why doesn't anyone point to the responsibility of the football schools for beating down the door to get into a basketball conference which did not sponsor football? Why doesn't anyone acknowledge the basketball schools for the vision, hard work, & performance to achieve an elite basketball conference where none previously existed? Why doesn't anyone point to the fragmentation & disorganization of Eastern football schools & their inability to work cooperatively to form a true all-sports conference without a group of bb-only schools involved?

Repeating the silly accusation that the Big East rejected Penn State & that this caused all of the subsequent problems doesn't make it true. Joe Paterno denied that they ever had any interest in joining the BE. He should know. So, who turned down whom?

The Big East has evolved differently than the standard formula. I believe that this will change, but I don't understand the repeated bashing, which typically has no basis. "It's all Tranghese's fault" is posted here repeatedly in one way or another. If that's the case, why do such posters ignore the fact that the BE wouldn't even have football if it weren't for Tranghese. He was one of the advocates who pushed for football. He inherited an imperfect situation & tried to move it forward. He made his mistakes, but he serves at the bidding of the member schools. Look to them for the direction the conference has pursued.

According to Paterno, Penn State approached BC & Syracuse to join them in forming an all-sports conference. Instead BC & Syracuse sought to bring them into the Big East fold, which Paterno says is not what Penn State wanted. If anyone is to blame for the current mess it is BC & Syracuse for not having the vision to do in 1982 what they tried to do by their proposed move to the ACC 20 years later. Had they left the Big East & joined Penn State, there would have been an Eastern all-sports conference without the bb-only baggage. It was their insistence to stay in the BE & wanting to have the best of both worlds that led to the hybrid & the current mess.

There is a history here. Anyone is welcome to ignore it at their own risk.


Last edited by friarfan on Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:46 pm 
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I totally agree, Friarfan, the fb schools of the BE, i. e. BC and Syracuse, with Penn State, indeed had the option years before to form an all sports conference and not latch onto later, an obviously missioned conference for bb.

I am amused at one grammar challenged poster who presumes the degree of distance ties to the BE is a direct correlation to credible opinions. Obviously I have a SEC connection and some elsewhere. No, I am not a BE alumnus. If observations on particular conferences are limited to alums and residential locations, that lone, petty utterance would be really constraining and obviously unverifiable. I would be regulated, in part, talking about the Ivy League and Columbia University Teachers College in particular.

Now if the population density factor (listening Metropolitan? ;))was the prevailing factor for generating legions of fans, then the real Lions (not Penn State) should be the ultimate example. Actually, I kind of like the colorful image of "stoned" players at football. That should never be taken away from Columbia ;D. Maybe Columbia has it right in keeping football in perspective and the consuming of treats to dull the pain. Seriously, I want nothing to change in the Ivy League.


Last edited by sec03 on Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:55 pm 
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sec8 what ever one send out, one gets sent back.For the most part my replies about cusa leftovers are reflective of their desire destroy the BE for their own benefit.Long distance BE fans by internet are hardly reflective of the real BE seen.The number of BE fans who regularly travel thousands of miles is a highly selective group.However,the BE is doing well in bowls and tv and a split is not happening.Comments about alliances with Army and Navy and the BE are a lot more believable than merge of the mwc and the BE,


Thats funny considering most fans on the Big East board want a split as well. That they also think they are getting the shaft at bowls and tv money. That there alliance buddy Navy stole a bowl slot from them.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:14 pm 
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Now if the population density factor (listening Metropolitan? ;))was the prevailing factor for generating legions of fans, then the real Lions (not Penn State) should be the ultimate example.


Its not always all population density, but the right kind of population density. One where college sports is followed. Urban locales of universities are not always where you are going to find college football fans. Get out into the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th largest states in the US, just west of NYC, and there you have a conference that has 3 100K+ football stadiums.

The Columbia Lions are hardly a comparison for college sports compared to Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin, et al. Or for that matter UConn and Rutgers.


Last edited by metropolitan on Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:30 pm 
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Now if the population density factor (listening Metropolitan? ;))was the prevailing factor for generating legions of fans, then the real Lions (not Penn State) should be the ultimate example.


Its not always all population density, but the right kind of population density. One where college sports is followed. The northeast, and in particular, urban locales of universities are not always where you are going to find college football fans. Get out into the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th largest states in the US, just west of NYC, and there you have a conference that has 3 100K+ football stadiums.

The Columbia Lions are hardly a comparison for college sports compared to Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Wisconsin, et al. Or for that matter UConn and Rutgers.


Metropolitan, ease up, I was only teasing you. I knew you liked to talk population matters. My references to Columbia had no comparative intent and was meant as humor, as lame as it may have been.


Last edited by sec03 on Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:16 am 
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sec8 you appear to be logically challanged with regard to your BE comments.Your sources of information on the BE seem to be based on the internet rather by attending BE games and with directly interacting with the BE and its fans.The farther you are away from the situation on the ground and the less interaction you have with regard to the BE the less reliable and valid your comments are.


Last edited by tigersharktwo on Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:07 am 
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sec8 you appear to be logically challanged with regard to your BE comments.Your sources of information on the BE seem to be based on the internet rather by attending BE games and with directly interacting with the BE and its fans.The farther you are away from the situation on the ground and the less interaction you have with regard to the BE the less reliable and valid your comments are.


Oh Miss Tiggy,
Please do tell us just where you are monitoring the situation on the ground and the specific Big East school that delivered unto you your incredible writing skills?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:29 pm 
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sec8 your TOTAL LACK OF SKILLS and your lack basis for your BE comments make a nice package.Yes, maybe you can lend your skills to the cia instead of having on the ground operatives you can monitor internet blogs and supply them with your views(I am sure you will share your current level of basis for your comments with this new assignment) .


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:01 pm 
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sec8 your TOTAL LACK OF SKILLS and your lack basis for your BE comments make a nice package.Yes, maybe you can lend your skills to the cia instead of having on the ground operatives you can monitor internet blogs and supply them with your views(I am sure you will share your current level of basis for your comments with this new assignment) .


Miss Tiggy,
Answer the posed questions? Where are you located? If that is such a critical element in judging credibility, and you level those assumptions on others that do not buy into your flawed advocation, then support your claims as to the substantiation of your own expertise. You brought up the matter of centers of operation and ground control.
Again, what BE school did you attend or what particular school have you adapted to project measures you regard is in their best interest? In your community what is the ratio of enlightened BE fans per population density? I will ask Metro (very seriously this time) to do a projected calculation of college football fans there compared to certain designations elsewhere once you answer these simple questions. From your own declarations on this board, aren't you the one with the gift of using blackberries for Internet communication while sitting in the VIP boxes at BE games?

The loads of BE fans here and on other boards have disagreed and discredited much of your utterances. Exactly how do you know they are NOT true BE fans, did not attend or live near a BE school, and have been confined to the Internet for all their information?


Last edited by sec03 on Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:15 pm 
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Yes there is a lot of crap flying about the BE from long distance internet experts .Major items like the BE will lose its bcs to the BE will split.These major declarations are and were COMPLETE TOTAL TRASH.Yes to some a blackberry is unusual.Also to some attending a b10 AAU school as an undergraduate is unusual.Furthermore ,it maybe even more unusual to go graduate school at a b10 AAU and have graduate degrees.Furthermore ,it maybe even more unusual to do scientific decision making research based on mathematical methods.However,what is the most unusual is the need to conform to giant line of crap against the BE which seems to originate out of the northeast region.One may even call it a tom delay frame of mind with respect to the northeast from the interior.The vast majority of BE fans live in the northeast not thousands of miles from the northeast.The location of most is well documented at least by region.A REAL FAN OF THE BE ATTENDS BE GAMES .


Last edited by tigersharktwo on Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:59 pm 
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The all sports schools need to split out. Let the basketball schools with Notre Dame keep the Big East sigma and play basketball all they want. They can have 8, 10, 12, 16 or all the basketball schools they want that don't play 1A football. Notre Dame must be left with them unless they come along with the all sports splitters and play a full slate of the new conference. They will not anyway.
Louisville, USF, and West Virginia as Big East workhorses do not need to be giving Notre Dame any more free meals.
Two, three, or four added from eastern CUSA will correct the scheduling problems and strengthen the weak bowl negotiation record. Even recently Navy out-slicked us. That Big East office missed another one.


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