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 Post subject: Wannabees
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:14 pm 
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Syracuse is not in New England Dumb-bell.

New England is CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, and ME.



According to you.

And what a great objective standard you are.


There is no other region in the US that has such a common-viewed and accepted boundaries as the region of New England. People often argue what states are in the Midwest and what states are in the South, and even what states comprise the Greater Northeast, but New England gets no arguments. The six states of Massachussetts, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, Connecticut, and Rhode Island are the only states that comprise New England. New York State is a Northeastern state, but is definitely not a New England state. Here's a Wikipedia article on the topic of New England talking about the 6 states that don't include New York State:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England


Last edited by metropolitan on Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Wannabees
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:35 pm 
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Cincy #2 (?) school in OH


I recently took a trip to Cincinnati, OH. While I was there I went and visited the campus of the U of Cincinnati, and saw Nippert Stadium. Very intiment stadium and not much room for expansion. Very tight surroundings. Anyway, while there I decided to visit a couple of department stores in the Cincinnati area as well as along the trip back to Michigan to see if the Cincy area has sports memorialbellia being sold in department stores and thus illustrating the support and market for the team.

I stopped at a Wal Mart and a Meijer store (Michigan Wal Mart with stores in OH and other neighboring states) in the Cincy area as well as a Barnes and Noble in the Cincy area. I also visited a thingy's Sporting Good Store just south of Dayton in the Dayton metro area, and also a Meijer Store in Bowling Green, less than 1 mile from Doyt Perry Stadium and the BGSU campus as well as a Target in Toledo before crossing the state line back into Michigan.

In the Cincy Area Wal Mart I found no U of Cincy sports memorialbellia while I found some Ohio State Buckeye stuff along with Cincy Reds and Cincy Bengalls stuff. There were no other college teams being sold there.

In the Cincy Area Barnes and Noble in the Sports section I found 1 book on the Cincinnati Bearcats while there were numerous books on Ohio State Buckeyes as well as the legends of Woody Hayes. There were also some books on the Reds and Bengals.

At the Cincy Area Meijer store I found an almost equal amount of Ohio State Buckeye stuff as I did of Cincy Bearcat stuff, but the slight edge would go to the Ohio State Buckeyes. They also had numerous Reds and Bengals stuff. They had a few other items from other college as well, but very minimal. Three U of Kentucky shirts, a couple of Xavier University shirts, and a couple of Miami Red Hawks stuff, and 1 Michigan State Spartan shirt. But numerous, and I mean 4 or 5 racks of Ohio State stuff and about the same of U Cincy Bearcat stuff. They also had some Big Ten conference-wide memorialbellia, but did not have any such stuff of the Big East nor the MAC.

Just a mere 20 miles up the road, in what was about 15 miles south of Downtown Dayton and on the southern edge of the Dayton Metro Statistical Area I stopped in a thingy's Sporting Goods store. In this store the only college sports stuff was Ohio State. Reds and Bengals too, but only Ohio State, no U of Cincy nor Wright State nor U of Dayton nor any MAC school. Ohio State was everywhere, 10 or 12 racks of stuff.

At the Bowling Green, OH Meijer store (less than 1 mile from Doyt Perry Stadium and the BGSU campus) I saw an equal amount of Ohio State stuff with Bowling Green Falcon stuff. There was also Cleveland Indians and Cleveland Caviliers, although no Browns, as well as Detroit Tigers stuff. There was also a University of Michigan section, but no where near the level of Ohio State stuff. Also there was some Big 10 conference-wide stuff but no MAC stuff. BGSU didn't exceed Ohio State stuff, even less than 1 mile from their stadium. No U of Cincy stuff nor any other Ohio school there at all.

At the Toledo Target store there was only Ohio State stuff, and they had their own section in the store. There were also some, though not as many, U of Michigan stuff and some Cleveland Indians stuff as well. No Toledo Rocket stuff, nor any other MAC school and UCincy was not seen at all either.

What was interesting was that which was consistent. Ohio State stuff is everywhere in Ohio and numerous in quantity because it sells because its Ohio's clear team for following. Nothing comes close. So my conclusion is that there isn't a "2nd Team" of Ohio. If anything, the "2nd Team of Ohio" is different depending on what part of Ohio you are located in. U Cincy is in the very SW corner of the state, but outside of the Cincinnati area it doesn't have support. Not even in neigboring Dayton area. In Northwest Ohio the second team to Ohio State is probably the University of Michigan. After that its either U of Toledo or BGSU. In Northeastern Ohio the second team to Ohio State is probably Akron or Kent State or even Youngstown State, or even Cleveland State, depending on what part of Northeastern Ohio. In Central and Southeastern Ohio the second team to Ohio State is probably Ohio U. But consistently there is no "2nd Team of Ohio" and all schools other than Ohio State (which is definitely statewide) are only regionally, and city/metro-based supported teams with even Ohio State support being equal to or exceeding them in their very own region.


Quote:
Memphis #2 (?) school in TN


I was in the Nashville Airport about a year ago, switching planes. In the gift stores in the terminal I saw sports memorialbellia for the Tennessee Titans, the Nashville Predators, the University of Tennessee Volunteers (which are located 175 miles to the east) and the Vanderbilt Commadores. There was no University of Memphis sports memorialbellia. Memphis may be strong in the Memphis area and maybe western Tennessee. But in Central Tennessee the 2nd team is Vanderbilt and Tennessee is supported statewide. I don't think the moniker of "2nd Team of Tennessee" quite fits for the University of Memphis Tigers. Its not a statewide school and doesn't have much support in other areas of the state, such as the Nashville area, which is closer than Chattanooga and Knoxville is home of U Tennessee, and Johnson City-Kingsport-Bristol is over 500 miles to the east of Memphis. These 3 population centers don't have much in common with Memphis and western Tennessee other than being in the same state.


Last edited by metropolitan on Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Wannabees
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:30 am 

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What was interesting was that which was consistent. Ohio State stuff is everywhere in Ohio and numerous in quantity because it sells because its Ohio's clear team for following. Nothing comes close. So my conclusion is that there isn't a "2nd Team" of Ohio. If anything, the "2nd Team of Ohio" is different depending on what part of Ohio you are located in. U Cincy is in the very SW corner of the state, but outside of the Cincinnati area it doesn't have support. Not even in neigboring Dayton area. In Northwest Ohio the second team to Ohio State is probably the University of Michigan. After that its either U of Toledo or BGSU. In Northeastern Ohio the second team to Ohio State is probably Akron or Kent State or even Youngstown State, or even Cleveland State, depending on what part of Northeastern Ohio. In Central and Southeastern Ohio the second team to Ohio State is probably Ohio U. But consistently there is no "2nd Team of Ohio" and all schools other than Ohio State (which is definitely statewide) are only regionally, and city/metro-based supported teams with even Ohio State support being equal to or exceeding them in their very own region.


You also may want to take a look at college hat stores as an indicator of how much one school is selling in a region. There is more of a distinction in Ohio between the support of colleges not named Ohio State.

In Northwest, behind Bowling Green and Toledo you are going to find OhioU. Walking in the malls you'll find an occasional person in OhioU gear but never Kent, Akron, Miami and Wright.

Take the anology to Southwest, behind Miami Oh, you'll find once again OhioU gear as the runner up, and never BG, Toledo, Kent, Akron.

Then take a trip to Northeast Ohio, and you'll find behind Kent and Akron (sometimes even ahead) OhioU gear and well ahead of BG, Toledo, and Miami.

That pattern is also a mirror image of the enrollment of OhioU which has as many students from Dayton as Miami, Oh; more students from Toledo than Miami, Kent, and Akron combined; more students from Cleveland than Akron; and more students from Columbus than the other 5 MAC schools combined (Toledo, Akron, Kent, BG, Miami). U Cincy only beats OhioU in enrollment in about 5 counties, the other 83 counties show more enrollment from OhioU.

OhioU is in the least populated region of the state, yet is 1st or 2nd in applications with Miami OH every year.

In the MAC basketball tourney located in Cleveland, OhioU draws as well as Kent State and Akron for its games (sometimes better) and far, far better than BG, Miami and Toledo.

Then in football, OhioU has had a bad team for a very long time and only 10% of its alumni within the southeast Ohio area, regardless they still out draw Miami and Bowling Green who have 40%+ of their alumni nearby and some really excellent teams over the years.

Athletically, which is a totally different question than state wide support, U Cinncy is solidly #2. UC has the second largest Budget, the second largest FB stadium, the second largest basketball following, the ability to host Ohio State at home in FB. The list can go on. UC now is the #2 BCS school in Ohio. Keep in mind UC has only been in a BCS conference for 1 year.

If UC could get an annual series going with Ohio State in Football and Basketball, I think they could really become a legitmate second option to OSU over time. OSU has sorely lacked an instate rival in football from time immortal and it would be good for the economy of the state if they had one.


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 Post subject: Wannabees
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:12 am 
Ok I'll conceed the NE stuff because of the Wiki article.

Metro, Philadelphia is the Delaware market. That's much bigger than 850k.


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 Post subject: Wannabees
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:22 am 
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I think the great thing about Meijer's, Wal Marts and Targets is that its where everyday shopping occurs. This reflects the widest and deepest part of the market. People that go to a store specifically to shop for sports memorialbellia and find a store that specializes in it, are doing specialty shopping and looking for niche market stuff. People that shop at Meijer's and Wal Marts are doing everyday shopping and the stuff sold there are what everyday people doing their everyday shopping buy. Thus it reflects the widest and biggest market. Ohio State is the dominating team with the only statewide market in the state. Now mind you I have also shopped in Meijer stores in Columbus and in the Cleveland area and never saw anything but OSU stuff as well. There is no clear "number 2 team of Ohio." It depends on what region you are in. The 3rd or 4th or 5th or 6th teams you will have to go to a specialty store where everyday shopping and everday people don't go. I can do that in almost anywhere. There are specialty sports memorialbellia stores here in Michigan that I could go to and even buy a Southern Mississippi hat. It doesn't make Michigan a Southern Miss market. Those stores reflect niche and specialty markets for very specific product buying people and reflects a very small niche market.

The only major market team in Ohio is Ohio State. UCincy is a midmajor market that is regionally concentrated in Southwest Ohio, specifically Hamilton and Butler Counties in Ohio, and maybe a couple other counties to the east, but with it Ohio State is an equal at a minimum within that very same market area of Southwest Ohio.

UCincy is a midmajor market in a BCS major conference. Many of the candidates for Big East expansion I believe have this same characteristic. The Cincy market is relatively big, but if you slice it up, and Ohio State gets a very large share of it, plus take out Miami, and Xavier, and perhaps some Kentucky, you don't have something close to a typical BCS team's market.

Now I also shopped a Dixck's Sporting Goods store in the Dayton area and that is a specialty store with lots of sports memorialbellia and no other college team was present than Ohio State, and they had 10 to 12 racks of stuff.

Now in Michigan as a comparison, at every Meijer store throughout the state you will find a equal amount of Michigan Wolverine and Michigan State Spartan stuff. Depending on what region of the state you are located in, you will see a third team, usually a MAC school in the area or Notre Dame if its in Southwestern Michigan. Like at the Meijer stores here in the Ann Arbor, of the three stores you will find an equal amount of Michigan and Michigan State stuff. At the "Ypsilanti Meijer store" you will also find some Eastern Michigan stuff along side of the Michigan and Michigan State stuff but no where close to the amount of the Michigan and Michigan State stuff. In Lansing all you will find is Michigan State and Michigan stuff and maybe a little of Notre Dame stuff. In Kalamazoo you find Michigan, Michigan State, Western Michigan and Notre Dame stuff. In Mount Pleasant you will find Michigan, Michigan State and Central Michigan stuff.

Michigan has 2 statewide teams that are equal or nearly equal and clearly has a "1st and 2nd Teams of Michigan" in Michigan and Michigan State. For Ohio, its Ohio State and everything else is regional and none of the regional teams really comprise much support beyond their region and don't really take on a role of a "2nd Team of the State" because they are other regional teams canceling them out in other regions of the state with their support and don't really have a typical BCS team market.


Last edited by metropolitan on Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Wannabees
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:25 pm 
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I've been to Hartford, I've been to Storrs, I've been to Springfield. I will just say that when there is a Hartford-Springfield regional airport, the Springfield/Amherst area is contiuned to be in the orb of influence of Hartford.


They may share a regional airport and are only 26 miles apart and may have some interlinkage ties with Hartford. However, Springfield has a distinct enough market and regional hub identity that it can carry its own. The state line in between Springfield and Hartford is strong enough to demarcate some differences between the two metro areas, despite their linkages and some shared relationships.

For instance, Springfield, MA is its own Designated Market Area according to Neilsen for TV markets. They have a ABC, NBC, CBS and a PBS station of their very own, and concentrate on Western Massachusetts news. Also, Springfield is the hub of the Pioneer Valley and Western Massachusetts.

The Boston Metro Area portion of Massachussetts comprises about 4.7 million of Massachussetts' 6.5 million people. The Western Massachussetts region which includes Berkshire, Franklin, Hampden, Hampshire, and Worchester Counties (including the Springfield, Worchester, and Pittsfield Metro Statistical Areas) is 1.6 million people. UMass is the only Division I school in Berskshire, Franklins, Hampden and Hampshire Counties, and when Worchester County is included the only other D I school is Holy Cross.

All 5 counties that I have named are west of the I-495 Loop which pretty much separates Boston from Western Massachussetts.

A population of 1.6 million and with only Holy Cross as its only school with competition, 1.6 million is about the equivalent population, a tad smaller than either the entire State of Nebraska or the entire state of West Virginia. Both the University of Nebraska and West Virginia University are BCS schools. Now they probably pick up maybe 5% of the Boston market, with U Mass Boston and UMass Lowell in the metro area with some graduates so there may be some interest from those schools as only UMass Lowell has a D I Hockey team and UMass-Amherst is the only D I school of the system.

5% of the 4.7 million Boston Market yield about 200K to 250K (a then resulting market total of 1.8 to 1.9 million people) of further interest which places it in the same area of University of Nebraska, West Virginia University, and perhaps University of Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, Colorado State are similar size markets to UMass.

Now football and basketball may be less followed in Massachussetts than Nebraska and West Virginia, but even if they get 60% what Nebraska and West Virginia get, their market is probably about equal to Memphis, UAB and Southern Miss. Their geography and academics give them some advantages along with this equal market size. They just need to move their sports up and be competitive.

They are also a relatively new school with a very similar history to UConn. Up until 1931 they were simply known as Massachussetts Agriucltural College. Then changed to Massachussetts State College, then in 1947 they became the University of Massachussetts, and experienced their rapid growth in the Post WWII era. UConn had about the same exact history with roles and name changes and recognition, with being founded in 1880s as the Storrs State Agricultural College, then changed names in the late 1890's as the Connecticut Agricultural College, then in 1931 became Connecticut State College then in 1939 became the University of Connecticut. Look where they are today. Also UConn is billed as the top public academic institution of New England. While UMass may be a shade below U Vermont and UNH in academic reputation, its size combined with relatively good academics makes it the second public academic institution in New England. I knew someone who went there who was a resident from Vermont, and it attracts students in Massachussetts statewide. I knew someone from Worchester that went to UMass. It is gradually assuming and taking on the role to that of similarity of many statewide public flagship universities.

They were D II I think up until the 1970's. There growth has been dramatic and as time has passed have gradually gained a bigger name recognition. They may not be at the level of UConn or a Rutgers, but they have the most potential of any school in the greater northeast of moving up, and are certainly in a much better position, market wise and potentially competitive wise when compared to Georgetown, U of New Hampshire, U Maine, and U of Rhode Island, and perhaps even Villanova as well.


Last edited by metropolitan on Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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