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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:09 pm 
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How likely is this?

Also will C-USA split w/ the western schools forming a new SWC?

I've seen some far flug ideas but these seem to be the most likey senarios if these splits happen.

I used to be a blogger for this site, and have been following Conf./Div. movement for 12 years at D-I,D-II,D-III, NAIA, NCCAA, USCAA levels.

1st (Keep it small)
BIG EAST 2012
C.Florida*
Cincinnati
S.Florida
W.Virginia
UConn
Syracuse
Rutgers
Louisville
Pittsburgh

PAC(Private Athletic Conf)
Notre Dame
Villanova
Georgetown
Providence
St.John's
Seton Hall
Marquette
DePaul
Xavier*
Butler*

C-USA adds S.Alabama

SUN BELT adds UTSA

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:17 pm 
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Part 2 both C-USA & BE split
BIG EAST 2012
C.Florida*
Cincinnati
S.Florida
W.Virginia
UConn
Syracuse
Rutgers
Louisville
Pittsburgh

PAC(Private Athletic Conf)
Notre Dame
Villanova
Georgetown
Providence
St.John's
Seton Hall
Marquette
DePaul
Xavier*
Butler*

C-USA
Marshall
Memphis
E.Carolina
UAB
S.Miss
S.Alabama*
W.Kentucky*
FAU*
Charlotte*

SWC
UTEP
Tulsa
Rice
SMU
Houston
Tulane
Louisiana Tech*
N.Texas*
UTSA*

SUN BELT
UL-Monroe
UL-Lafayette
Troy
M.Tenn.St.
FIU
Arkansas St.
UALR
Texas St.*
Georgia So.*
Jacksonville St.*

WAC adds UC-Davis

SLC adds UNO & C.Oklahoma(D-II)

SUMMIT adds Denver

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:35 pm 
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Part 3 BE split goes to 12

BIG EAST 2012
E.Carolina*
Marshall*
Memphis*
C.Florida*
Cincinnati
S.Florida
W.Virginia
UConn
Syracuse
Rutgers
Louisville
Pittsburgh

PAC(Private Athletic Conf)
Notre Dame
Villanova
Georgetown
Providence
St.John's
Seton Hall
Marquette
DePaul
Xavier*
Butler*

C-USA
UAB
S.Miss
UTEP
Tulsa
Rice
SMU
Houston
Tulane
Louisiana Tech*
UTSA*
W.Kentucky*
S.Alabama*

SUN BELT
UL-Monroe
UL-Lafayette
Troy
M.Tenn.St.
FIU
Arkansas St.
N.Texas
FAU
UALR
Texas St.*
Georgia So.*
Charlotte*

WAC adds UC-Davis

SLC adds UNO, C.Oklahoma

SUMMIT adds Denver

Here's the D-I map to get a feel of the location http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/60/Cbd1.PNG

Which do you think is the most likely or is nothing gonna happen?

BE could also just go to 10 W/ Memphis & UCF. Which would send S.Alabama & UTSA to C-USA

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:33 am 
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Fresno St Alum,not sure "when" the BE realigns but it is inevitable that the instability of the BE will cause changes sometime in the future.

Here is blog article with link to Newsday article with comments from Mike Tranghese citing tensions between the BE FB and BB factions.How long can this continue?
Link at http://blog.collegefootballfanatics.com ... -newsday-2


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:50 pm 
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In any Big East split or re-alignment, Notre Dame would go with the football schools. Their whole arrangement with the Big East is predicated on the fact that they want an All-Sports conference that's among a BCS.

They would have a huge drop off across the board joining the new "Catholic Hoops Conference" for all sports but men's basketball. The Big East currently has no problem with their status, hoping it leads to them joining for football (they've even offered to let UND keep its own broadcast rights/NBC contract and just play a BE schedule).

I've been waiting for a Big East split, but the more I think about it, the more I think they'll stay unchanged for a while... the only schools with a problem in the current arrangement are DePaul, Seton Hall, St. John's, and Providence, because they haven't made the NCAA's in a long time. Everyone else is happy. And those five always vote together and remain united in the concept of remaining in the Big East as is.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:49 pm 
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If Notre Dame ever joined a conf for all sports it would be the Big 10. I don't think the BE would take them unless they joined for football. They'd want 9 or 10 fb playing members.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:17 pm 
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BE MB thread discussing article out of Jersey regarding Commissioner Tranghese's quotes regarding the possibility of a BE split at http://ncaabbs.com/showthread.php?tid=356415


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:36 pm 
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Notre Dame won't join any conference in football until NBC quits offering the big money, so I seriously doubt they would ever join the BE for football unless it was a worst-case scenario (Big Ten takes another school as its 12th, ACC declines to go to 13).


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:30 am 
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A Look at the Current Conference

Currently, the Big East consists of seventeen Universities (16 full-time and 1 associate) in the northeastern, southeastern and midwestern United States. For football, eight members play FBS football within the conference (Connecticut, Louisville, Rutgers, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Cincinnati, South Florida, and Syracuse), one plays football as a FBS independent (Notre Dame), and two play football at the FCS level (Georgetown and Villanova). In basketball, all members except South Florida have been to a final four and several rank in the top 50 all-time win list.

Seven Big East Conference members are located in the top 12 media markets (DMAs), and 12 members are located in the top 34, covering over 25 percent of all U.S. markets – by far, the largest coverage of any conference. The 2008-09 academic year marks the third of a six-year agreement between the Big East Conference and ESPN, Inc. for men's and women's basketball and the second of a six-year term for football. The contract with ESPN is estimated to be worth $250 million and its provisions are summarized below:

Breakdown: BIG EAST football Games on TV:
• A minimum of 17 home games involving BIG EAST Conference teams will be televised on ABC, ESPN or ESPN2, including four Thursday night games and two Sunday night games on ESPN or ESPN2.
• At least one conference game will be a part of ESPN’s Saturday Prime Time package and two games – one on ABC or ESPN, the other on ESPN2 – will be on Championship Saturday in December.

Breakdown: BIG EAST Men’s Basketball Games on TV:
• Minimum 60 games on ESPN or ESPN2
• 49 regular season games – 41 conference and eight home non-conference
• 11 BIG EAST Championship games
• 110 additional regular season games broadcast on the remaining ESPN platforms
• 80 games on ESPN Regional (66 conference and 14 home non-conference)
• 30 conference games on ESPNU/ESPN360
• Minimum of 10 conference or non-conference games on CBS
The above gives the BIG EAST a minimum grand total of 180 television games each year.
The BIG EAST will continue to be featured each week during the conference season on ESPN’s Big Monday. A new element to the agreement will allow ESPN to also feature a BIG EAST Conference match up on Thursday each week. The agreement also provides that each BIG EAST team have a minimum of 10 games telecast on ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN Classic or ERT.

Breakdown: BIG EAST Woman’s Basketball Games on TV:
• 11 guaranteed annual average appearances on ESPN or ESPN2
• 15 appearances annually involving league teams on ESPN network

Shown below is a summary of the media markets covered by the Big East. Teams located within top 12 DMA are denoted by *. Teams located within top 34 DMA are denoted by **.

Pittsburgh**
Rutgers*
Syracuse
Connecticut**
West Virginia
Cincinnati**
Louisville
South Florida*
DePaul*
Marquette**
Georgetown*
Providence**
Seton Hall*
St. Johns*
Villanova*
Notre Dame


What a split would mean – Football perspective

If the Big East football schools broke off to form a new conference, the biggest challenge facing them would be market presence. As is apparent from the list given above, basketball schools account for five of the seven top 12 DMAs located within the conference. Basketball school account for seven of the twelve top 34 DMAs located within the conference. In addition, the Big East is also disadvantaged by its small number of flagship “state schools”. Outside of UConn, Rutgers, and WVU, the other schools draw fans and media attention primarily from their own market rather than state-wide.

It can be argued that Rutgers, Saint John’s, and Seton Hall all overlap in the New York market. This is true to an extent; however, it can also be argued that SJU and Seton Hall draw much more attention than Rutgers basketball within the New York market. Milwaukee, Philadelphia, and Chicago, on the other hand, have no overlap with football BE schools and would be completely lost in the event of a split.

Thus, any split between football and basketball schools is going to result in a huge market presence reduction. As a result, football schools with be looking at smaller contracts from ESPN and less exposure for basketball. When discussing a Big East split, one must keep in mind that basketball, not football, is the economic driver of the Big East conference. Could an all-sport conference with a much smaller market presence and smaller financial resources remain a viable power conference?


What a split would mean – Basketball perspective

Unlike the football schools, the basketball schools would still retain a large television market. New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Washington D.C., Providence, and Milwaukee would all be large markets within the basketball conference’s footprint. The loss of the Pittsburgh, Tampa, and Cincinnati markets would hurt some, but expansion teams like Xavier could help alleviate the loss.

On the other hand, a basketball conference faces challenges that all-sport conferences do not face. While it is true that basketball is the economic driver of the Big East conference, part of the value of the current Big East is derived from football. Under the current hybrid set-up, the conference gets publicity year round. Football gets the Big East name in the press from late summer through December/January while basketball garners attention primarily from December to March. Without football, a conference’s media spotlight is greatly reduced. Thus, a basketball only conference might receive less media attention overall than an all-sport conference and they might end up on the same level as the A-10 (i.e. a good basketball conference but one that doesn’t receive a ton of publicity).

What does this mean for a split?

Two things can be ascertained from perspectives posted above. First, any split is going to be a huge financial gamble. Football schools will lose market presence and thus bargaining power with ESPN and other broadcasters. Basketball schools will lose the year round exposure the Big East currently enjoys. Second, additions to either conference must either bring large media markets and/or marketability. Football schools would need to substantially increased their market share or add teams that can bring a lot of national attention (ND for example) to increase contract payout from ESPN and other broadcasters. Because their media spotlight is smaller, basketball schools may want to add a few large market schools (Xavier in Cincy, Dunquesne in Pitt) to maximize their exposure.

Why I don’t expect a split

I think the market footprint and the financial benefits of the current Big East are the glue that is holding the conference together. After looking at the current market footprint and the options that would be available post-split, I believe the presidents came to the conclusion that the current 16-team hybrid league is the best possible configuration in terms of profit and exposure for the respective members of the conference. Adding mid-level market teams like Memphis or depending on large market teams to upgrade (UMass, Dalaware, Temple to improve) is a huge financial gamble to take. You may end up with a better contract after a few years or you may be left holding the keys to a horrific failure. IMO, this is why a split is unlikely for the time being. The football schools have looked at the markets they would lose and the markets they could gain and decided that a new all-sport conference would be worse off in terms of finances, TV contracts, etc than the current 8 team partnership.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:13 pm 
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Excellent post.

However, the one thing that wasn't mentioned is distribution of revenue; and if a smaller conference with smaller revenue could lead to a larger revenue SHARE for each team.

The "football side" would obviously have a bigger TV contract than the basketball side, because the basketball side doesn't have football games to sell.

Also, while South Bend isn't a massive media market, Chicago is Notre Dame territory. Ditto NYC for UConn and Syracuse. Assuming ND goes with the football school (while maintaining FB Indep), the basketball contract for the football schools has: Chicago, CT, NY, NJ, Cincy, Louisville, Tampa, Pittsburgh, West Virginia

Where as the basketball side has: Chicago, Milwaukee, DC, Providence, Philly, NY/NJ** and Southwest Ohio (although it can be argued that the SJU/SHU share of NYC isn't as great as UConn/Syracuse). Southwest Ohio (Dayton and Cincy combined) would be the #18 metro market, which is why I think Dayton and Xavier would both get invitations to the new hoops conference.


Now without knowing the value of the Big East football and basketball contracts, we can't really say for certain what's the best option for these 16 schools.


For the sake of argument... let's say the football deal is worth $36 million, and the basketball deal worth $44 million:

The eight football schools would be getting $6.75 million each, the basketball schools (and Notre Dame) getting $2.75 mil each.

For the basketball schools, they'd only need to get a TV deal worth $25 million to make a split financially worth-while.
The football schools would only need a basketball deal of about $25 million before they are improving their lot.

Now, that's $6 million more than what those guys are combining for now (using numbers I made up)... But a chunk of that would be taken from the A-10 TV deal (Xavier and Dayton), and the rest from the ability to put more TV-friendly games on, as each side would have a double-round robin.


But I would agree, that given the economy, the perception for the hoops league taking a hit, and the loss of a few rivalries, it's not a realistic option right now, since the league is stable and profitable now.

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 3:21 pm 
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Great posts by UofL07 and JP. However, on the basketball side I do think the market size is a bit skewed. Let's take a look at the non-fb schools in the BE, and Xavier and Dayton.

DePaul- Chicago market, however has to share with Northwestern, Illinois, Notre Dame, Indiana, Purdue, etc. Realistically, with decline of sports, a minor market share.
Georgetown- DC Metro market, has some inroads from Maryland & Virginia, but commands most of market
Marquette- Milwaukee area, some Wisconsin inroads, minor UWM inroads, commands market
Notre Dame- Wild Card. Has large national following
Providence- Providence area, but UMass, UConn, URI, BC inroads, major competition in area
St. John's- NYC/NJ market, with fall of sports, small fish in huge pond
Seton Hall- see St. John's
Villanova- Philly market, but competes against other 4 privates and Penn State, basketball success does help
Dayton & Xavier- Dayton/Nati area, good sports, but competitive market with UC and Ohio State

So while they do have some hefty markets, they also face stiff competition in many of them. Realistically, DePaul, Providence, St. John's, and Seton Hall don't provide too much of their market, but whoever can convince ND to go with them really has the upper hand.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 10:55 am 
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me me me me me.

Sorry, getting warmed up. Ok. Here we go:




** (double post)

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Last edited by JPSchmack on Wed May 13, 2009 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 11:00 am 
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tarkiokid wrote:
Great posts by UofL07 and JP. However, on the basketball side I do think the market size is a bit skewed. Let's take a look at the non-fb schools in the BE, and Xavier and Dayton.

DePaul- Chicago market, however has to share with Northwestern, Illinois, Notre Dame, Indiana, Purdue, etc. Realistically, with decline of sports, a minor market share.
Georgetown- DC Metro market, has some inroads from Maryland & Virginia, but commands most of market
Marquette- Milwaukee area, some Wisconsin inroads, minor UWM inroads, commands market
Notre Dame- Wild Card. Has large national following
Providence- Providence area, but UMass, UConn, URI, BC inroads, major competition in area
St. John's- NYC/NJ market, with fall of sports, small fish in huge pond
Seton Hall- see St. John's
Villanova- Philly market, but competes against other 4 privates and Penn State, basketball success does help
Dayton & Xavier- Dayton/Nati area, good sports, but competitive market with UC and Ohio State

So while they do have some hefty markets, they also face stiff competition in many of them. Realistically, DePaul, Providence, St. John's, and Seton Hall don't provide too much of their market, but whoever can convince ND to go with them really has the upper hand.



I think that under-estimates the following of Providence and Marquette. Those are great college towns. There's a UWM presence in Milwaukee, but Marquette does extremely well.

Villanova doesn't compete with Temple, Penn State, St. Joe's, La Salle, Drexel, etc in Philly. They dominate those guys in terms of Philly Phan Phollowing. They're behind the 76ers and Flyers, but well ahead of Temple, SJU, etc.

Also, in Dayton and Cincinnati, no one cares about Ohio State basketball.

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 11:49 am 
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JPSchmack wrote:
tarkiokid wrote:
Great posts by UofL07 and JP. However, on the basketball side I do think the market size is a bit skewed. Let's take a look at the non-fb schools in the BE, and Xavier and Dayton.

DePaul- Chicago market, however has to share with Northwestern, Illinois, Notre Dame, Indiana, Purdue, etc. Realistically, with decline of sports, a minor market share.
Georgetown- DC Metro market, has some inroads from Maryland & Virginia, but commands most of market
Marquette- Milwaukee area, some Wisconsin inroads, minor UWM inroads, commands market
Notre Dame- Wild Card. Has large national following
Providence- Providence area, but UMass, UConn, URI, BC inroads, major competition in area
St. John's- NYC/NJ market, with fall of sports, small fish in huge pond
Seton Hall- see St. John's
Villanova- Philly market, but competes against other 4 privates and Penn State, basketball success does help
Dayton & Xavier- Dayton/Nati area, good sports, but competitive market with UC and Ohio State

So while they do have some hefty markets, they also face stiff competition in many of them. Realistically, DePaul, Providence, St. John's, and Seton Hall don't provide too much of their market, but whoever can convince ND to go with them really has the upper hand.



I think that under-estimates the following of Providence and Marquette. Those are great college towns. There's a UWM presence in Milwaukee, but Marquette does extremely well.

Villanova doesn't compete with Temple, Penn State, St. Joe's, La Salle, Drexel, etc in Philly. They dominate those guys in terms of Philly Phan Phollowing. They're behind the 76ers and Flyers, but well ahead of Temple, SJU, etc.

Also, in Dayton and Cincinnati, no one cares about Ohio State basketball.



Agreed. The reverse rationale being the CAA. They added northeastern saying they wanted the Boston Market. NU is non-existent in the media and with fans behind BC, Harvard, UMass and BU. Same with Georgia St and the Atlanta market. You'll find more interest in the other SEC schools after Georgia before anyone thinks about Georgia St.

While other programs do well in Philly, Villanova is chief.

I've said it before: "market" is something unique. Syracuse is a small city in comparison but the fandom reaches out to the entire upstate region. So would someone say "Well Buffalo is a bigger market, so lets take them over Syracuse?". No. With the basketball schools the same holds: a "market' is the footprint the fanbase encompasses and thrives, not JUST the basic DMA info.

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 11:52 am 
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And while there are dedicated threads with the article, I'll include it in this "Big East Split" thread:

On the news section...

Big East: To Split of Not to Split



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