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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:56 pm 
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Most of the fun with this forum are predicting what will happen if there is a change. And sometimes the posts are just for fun.

I thought a fun idea would be to fiddle around with some "What if" scenarios.

So here's the hypothetical:
The MWC has recently put together a plan to gain greater access to the BCS.
What if the BCS said, we'll create 1 or 2 spots in 2012 for the best (2) conference winners from non BCS conferences, but you need to have 12+ teams in your conference, the same as the SEC, Big XII, ACC as well as CUSA and MAC.

Here's a quick first take:
* MWC adds (3): Boise St, Nevada and Fresno St.

* WAC adds (3) + (3 for departing teams): Looking for 6 teams won't be easy. But with potential upgrades coming, the WAC might have to look down this path. It might be able to convince some Sunbelt schools to join as well.
North: Utah State, Idaho, San Jose State, Hawaii, *Montana, *Montana St
South: New Mexico State, North Texas, Louisiana-Lafayette, Louisiana-Monroe, Arkansas State, Louisiana Tech

* Sunbelt adds (2) + (4 for departing): Not a pretty sight. But if 6 teams left, they'd have to hope for upgrades.
Sun Division: Western Kentucky, Florida International, Florida Atlantic, * Georgia Southern, *Appalachian St, Middle Tennessee State,
Belt Division: Troy, South Alabama, *Texas St, *UTSA, *Lamar, *Sam Houston St.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:57 pm 
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Monroe, I can't seem them affording that travel cost. Maybe Monroe stays in the Belt and the WAC picks up MTS...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:51 pm 
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I really think the WAC would just hope to get back to 9 but here we go.

MWC(12) Boise St., Fresno St., Nevada
WAC(12) Montana, Montana St., UTSA, Texas St., UNT, Lamar
Sun Belt(14) Georgia So., Georgia St., Jacksonville St.
Big Sky(12) NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD, SUU, C.Washington
SLC(12) C.Oklahoma, Tarleton St., UTPA
WCC(10) Denver, Seattle
SoCon(12) C.Carolina
CAA(12) Stony Brook
OVC(12) N.Alabama, N.Kentucky
Big South(10) W.Georgia
Summit(10) Chicago St., HBU, Oklahoma City
AEC(10) C.Conn. St., LeMoyne
NEC(12) NJIT
Big West(10) CS Bakersfield
ASC(12) W.Florida
MEAC(14) NCCU, Savannah St.
Ind(2) UVU, Longwood

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:12 am 
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Might the WAC look at:

Sacramento State (Big Sky),
UC Davis (Big West, Great West FB), and
Cal Poly - SLO (Big West, Great West FB) ?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:02 pm 
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They could go to the west but most of the others are already FBS. I don't think this senario will happen anyway. MWC will stay at 9 or max out at 10

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:52 pm 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
They could go to the west but most of the others are already FBS. I don't think this senario will happen anyway. MWC will stay at 9 or max out at 10


Save that for another thread ;). In this What-If scenario the MWC, WAC and Sunbelt must ALL be 12 teams.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:54 pm 
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MWC
Western - Hawaii, San Diego State, Fresno State, UNLV, Utah, BYU
Mountain - Boise State, Wyoming, Colorado State, Air Force, TCU, New Mexico

WAC
Pacific - San Jose State, Sacramento State, UC-Davis, Nevada, Idaho, Utah State
Central - Louisiana Tech, New Mexico State, UTSA, Lamar, Texas State, Montana

SBC
West - North Texas, Arkansas State, Louisiana, Louisiana-Monroe, WKU, MTSU
East - South Alabama, Troy, Florida International, Florida Atlantic, Appalachian State, Georgia Southern

Southland (7 FCS/5 non-football)
West - Texas A&M-Corpus Christi, Texas-Arlington, Sam Houston, Stephen F. Austin, Central Arkansas, Arkansas-Little Rock
East - Centenary, New Orleans, McNeese, Northwestern State, Southeastern Louisiana, Nicholls State

Summit (5 FCS/5 non-football/1 FCS football-only)
North Dakota, North Dakota State, South Dakota, South Dakota State, UMKC, Oral Roberts, Western Illinois, IUPUI, IPFW, Oakland, Cal Poly (football only)

Big Sky (9 FCS/3 non-football)
North - Seattle, Central Washington, Eastern Washington, Portland State, Idaho State, Montana State
South - Northern Arizona, Southern Utah, Utah Valley, Weber State, Denver, Northern Colorado


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:23 am 
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wbyeager wrote:
SBC
West - North Texas, Arkansas State, Louisiana, Louisiana-Monroe, WKU, MTSU
East - South Alabama, Troy, Florida International, Florida Atlantic, Appalachian State, Georgia Southern

Southland (7 FCS/5 non-football)
West - Texas A&M-Corpus Christi, Texas-Arlington, Sam Houston, Stephen F. Austin, Central Arkansas, Arkansas-Little Rock
East - Centenary, New Orleans, McNeese, Northwestern State, Southeastern Louisiana, Nicholls State[/b]


Why would UALR and New Orleans need to leave the Sun Belt? They operate now as a 13-team conference in everything but football. UALR and New Orleans wouldn't want to leave for a lesser league just because the football membership changed. They'd probably just be a 14-team league with 12 for football.

The SBC offices are in New Orleans and they have the football tie-in with the New Orleans Bowl.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 4:15 pm 
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UNO would leave because they don't have enough sports to be D-I. If the NCAA follows through UNO would end up having to drop to D-II. If they are up to par on the 14 sports/15 for SBC then they won't be going anywhere.

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Last edited by Fresno St. Alum on Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:27 pm 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
UNO would leave because they don't have enough sports to be D-I. If the NCAA follows though UNO would end up having to drop to D-II. If they are up to par on the 14 sports/15 for SBC then they won't be going anywhere.


Yeah, just saw that in the news after that comment... but I think it's Sun Belt or no athletics for the,

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:02 am 
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drop all sports? why not just keep playing D-II in the GSC or Heartland and have 10 sports

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:35 am 
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Quinn wrote:
Most of the fun with this forum are predicting what will happen if there is a change. And sometimes the posts are just for fun.

I thought a fun idea would be to fiddle around with some "What if" scenarios.

So here's the hypothetical:
The MWC has recently put together a plan to gain greater access to the BCS.
What if the BCS said, we'll create 1 or 2 spots in 2012 for the best (2) conference winners from non BCS conferences, but you need to have 12+ teams in your conference, the same as the SEC, Big XII, ACC as well as CUSA and MAC.



OK, so the hypothetical is that in order to gain access to one of the 2 additional spots you would have to have 12 teams to satisfy the BCS conferences. I am also guessing that in the "Quinn hypothetical" the conference won't get a lame 9M half share, but a full 18M full share. This hypothetical suggests that CUSA will stay intact. I don't know if I buy that, but I'll work with that as part of the rules for now. That being the case it suggests that all things being equal, conferences would go after winners first and then make it work for their conference financially later, so...

* MWC adds (3): Fresno St., Boise St, Hawaii (football only), and Denver (non-Football)

The MWC adds the best combination of top market and good market penetration that the WAC possesses in Fresno St. Boise and Hawaii are the highest profile programs in the WAC due to their on the field domination of the league in recent years. Nevada-Reno doesn't win enough and only adds what? 20% of a small population state? --- So they were leiminated from my list. I toyed with UTEP, but UTEP has not broken 9 wins with any consistency --- Hawaii has. The MWC would throw some money at the Big West to allow Hawaii to be the 10th school in their non-football conference. Denver boosts the MWC in their most important market, offers shorter travel, and is academically strong, helping them more than full membership for Hawaii would help the conference.

Leaving a WAC of: Nevada, Utah State, Idaho, San Jose State, New Mexico State, Louisiana Tech

* WAC adds (3) + (3 for departing teams): with the cream of their league gone, the WAC would be near financial collapse. On the positive side they would still have their autobid with 6 members, making reloading possible. Assuming that occurred, the first rule of business would be survival. The idea of a BCS slot would be a very long shot --- something that occurred every blue moon. The caliber of the conference would drop below the Sunbelt, even if their reputation may be slightly better with the presence of Nevada and La Tech. The WAC would have one market worth a darned, the Bay area DMA. Left to it's own devices, SJ State would likely collapse without "nearby" rival Fresno to help build California support. More local competition would have to be dug up to prop up SJ St. Sac State is the logical 1st add with it's 20K stadium even though it's BB facilities suck. The stadium(s) make football possible, the DMA is great, and the travel is good for the western schools. In terms of DMA, it is a better situation than Fresno. That creates the following western travel partners: SJ/SAC, Nevada/USU, leaving Idaho stranded without a travel partner. Portland State would work as their travel partner. They would be another needed large market and PG&E sounds like it will again soon be a more tradional football capable stadium, making them a viable add. Additionally, they have strong BB and will soon have a tolerable BB Arena.

LA Tech and to a much lesser degree NMSU only stay in the WAC because of the high profile big 3. They would demand a better divisional footprint for them to stay, creating a NW/SW divisional setup. I think the WAC would decide that that is a better face saving measure and more financially viable than to let them go and dragging an entire inland division up from FCS (Montana, Montana St., NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD).

I think LA Tech would demand ULL and the conference itself would go hard after UNT to anchor their Southwestern division. I think UNT would balk over the same issus as last time ---rivals too far away and the bad media exposure of belonging to western timezone conference. I think the conference would go after UTSA and Texas State with the idea of giving UNT a legit group of similar tolerable conference mates. At the insistance of UTSA and Texas State (and in case UNT would not bite) Lamar would take the UNT slot as the SW division's 6th member, creating a viable division, but also creating awkward travel (travel partners: ULL+La Tech, Texas State+UTSA, Lamar and NMSU???) and opening the door for either more schools or non-football members to make it work.

North: San Jose State, Sacramento St., Nevada, Utah State, Idaho, PSU
South: New Mexico State, UTSA, Texas State, Lamar, Louisiana-Lafayette, Louisiana Tech

Now it is entirely possible UNT might rethink their decision looking at the sunbelt vs. this setup ---at least short term. UNT needs to win and have stong attendance to get into CUSA. They have no opponents any of their fans care about in the sunbelt. This would be a lot more attractive along those lines. It could cut UNT's travel budget, give them more Texas exposure for recruiting, and would give them something usually not seen at games in Denton --- a travelling fan boost to home attendance. It would be a great short term home....If UNT decided they wanted in, the WAC would likely go for it considering UNT's facilities, market, and that their athletic budget is going to more than double in the next 10 years. The WAC might go to a 14 for football +2 in basketball (for 16) for better travel partners. Oral Roberts would be a good travel partner for Lamar, would add Tulsa (a decent market) and would really help the conference in BB. UNT would them be a more tolerable travel partner for NMSU (DFW airport to EL Paso). (When UNT leaves I would be sorely tempted to offer a sweetheart deal to West Texas to upgrade from DII--- Mostly because I love WT, but also because they'd be a good travel partner for NMSU, have a strong athletic program overall, and draw well to their 20K stadium. Still schools like UCO probably make as much or more sense.)

On the west coast, the smart play would be adding UC-Davis for football and hoping a Spanos sponsored stadium upgrade appears and....drumroll....DII San Franciso State for non-football. I can imagine everyone spewing milk on this idea, but consider this --- the WAC is vulnerable to implode as long and SJ State is isolated. SF State may be a pretty weak athletic program even at the DII level, but there is no BB competition from the NBA in SF and their is some talent in the Bay. They could become a pretty reasonable BB school in short order with a modest investment for an expansion of 2000 seat SFSU main Gymnasium and a semi-name coach. They could become a draw in the community. They have a very large student body at just under 29,000. They would really help the WAC in the Bay area market as the only BB competition is the private school Dons (Members of the stable private religious school conference, the WCC). If the Dons can average 3K, I have to think SDSU can sellout their gym at the DI level. SFSU and SJSU would be travel partners with Sac St and UC Davis as travel partners.

North: San Francisco State (non-football), San Jose State, UC-Davis, Sacramento St., Nevada, Utah State, Idaho, PSU
South: New Mexico State, UNT, UTSA, Texas State, Lamar, Oral Roberts (non-football), Louisiana-Lafayette, Louisiana Tech

LOL, I think this is more viable/stable long-term than the current WAC.


Leaving a Sunbelt of: UNO (non-football), ULM, UALR (non-football), Arky St, WKU, MTU, USA, Troy, FAU, FIU

* Sunbelt adds (4) drops (2 & 3 departing): The Sunbelt would actually come out of this looking like a rose. With UNT, their Western media anchor gone, the sunbelt would be free to pull back to a more travel friendly footprint and rebuild with the cream of FCS ---a plus in an environment that rewards on the field excellence. With Quinn's 12 for football for a BCS bid rule, a ton of FCS schools would be looking to move up. A larger conference might be a big plus for the sunbelt. Would they go with something crazy under today's structure? 16 teams? 18 teams? 20? (kidding)

UNO and UALR would be booted. UALR would catch on with the MVC or the Summitt; UNO with the GW.

Without a predator CUSA East and with a smaller footprint, I have thrown just about every legit southern upgrade candidate I could think of into this conference. Almost every university on this list is a mid-sized public at least, all have good stadiums, and most have good attendance that suggests the jump is viable.

I envision this as 2 9 team divisions playing 8 in-division games with a championship game designed to bump the winner over the WAC & CUSA winners and the MWC runnerup. For scheduling ease it would probably only be that large for football, with several of the aligned schools ---the weaker BB programs and the programs too strong to move to the sunbelt --- playing in some different conference for the other sports. I think it would have 12 all sports members.


North Division: UCA (football only), ULM, Arky St, Western Kentucky, Eastern Kentucky, Middle Tennessee State, Appalachian St, The Citadel (football only), James Madison (football only), Old Dominion (football only)
South Division: UL Monroe (in south for FB only), Jacksonville St, Georgia St, South Alabama, Troy, Georgia Southern (football only), Florida A&M (football only), Florida Atlantic, Florida International,


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:24 pm 
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Now I'd like to look at CUSA in that equation. If the rules were the "Quinn Rules", the BCS would essentially be saying to CUSA and the MWC, ---"you will never get in, but you could get a slot from year to year". That being the case, it think the different conferences would take those rules to mean different things to them. While the WAC would take it to mean, "get as competitive on the field as possible to try to get two teams in each year", CUSA East would take that to mean "there is no added allure from staying associated with high profile academic schools with modest football programs". ECU and Marshall would lead a break away and the Texas schools --- who don't think much of the eastern schools and would be OK with that as the conference doesn't work that well for them financially anyway.

Assuming that the MWC is the top conference, their changes would be largely be unaffected although Denver, as they would not get BCS $, may prefer to be associated with more private schools in a more TV lucrative conference.

* MWC adds (3): Fresno St., Boise St, & Hawaii

West: Hawaii, SDSU, Fresno St, Boise St, BYU, Utah, UNLV (non-football)
Mountain: UNLV (football), Wyoming, CSU, Air Force, UNM, TCU

With these rules, it is pretty straight forward the CUSA schools would split 6/6 west/east with no added lures existing.

CUSA West (SWC): UTEP, SMU, Houston, Rice, Tulsa, Tulane
CUSA East (CUSA): Memphis, S. Miss, UAB, Marshall, ECU, UCF

As with most unpleasant splits, there would be a reactionary element to this. The CUSA East schools (which I think would take the CUSA name) would be trying to PROVE they didn't lose any debateable claim to being BCS worthy OUTRIGHT. I think this would present itself as going after big game attendance schools, power schools, big enrollment schools, and major media markets. They would really need some larger markets for TV revenue. They would attempt to get the bowl side of the BCS on their side. The West (lets call them the SWC) would feel some motivations for large attendance adds, but would also look at this as an opportunity to build a much more viable conference with shorter travel distances to help attendance and better academic credentials.

Army and Navy draw well and add to TV numbers. Charlotte would love to rejoin to get a top home for their football program. Temple could be lured in as an all sports member with Memphis and Charlotte in tow. Troy and FAU are largest schools and are the cream of the sunbelt in football. This would create a potent and efficient 10/12 conference setup. (It is possible that CUSA might also renew acquaintances with former CUSA member St. Louis and add another BB school to make it a 12 member all-sports conference. A large non-football playing public within the footprint in a big city with a developed BB program like VCU might make sense if they go that route, but lets say they go with the 10/12.)

CUSA (North): Army (football only), Navy (football only), Marshall, Temple, Charlotte, ECU
CUSA (South): Memphis, S. Miss, UAB, Troy, UCF, FAU

The SWC would take the top 5 endowments in CUSA + UTEP and build from there. The logical path for them to twelve is to ramp up in-state so they would become a more important conference in large media state Texas. UNT is a no brainer. The Mean Green's athletic budget will probably be one of the largest in the SWC within 10 years. UTSA and Texas State likewise make sense in this scenario. Their large student bodies would increase travelling fan attendance accross the conference ---vitally important --- and the addition of the San Antonio and Austin DMAs really give the conference a big bump. Theri athletic budgets will be "non-BCS huge" soon too. Additionally the three schools' alumni base to UH's alumni base would give the new SWC an equivilant number of alumni to UT & A&M. Not as rich, but as many. La Tech has decent facilities and a good rep. In a tight footprint with travel no longer bleeding their program, the school would likely bounce back. Lamar would be a good add for this basketball challenged conference, but I think the league would prefer ULL which has just as good of a BB program, is established at the FBS level in addition to having a 30K stadium, is closer to Tulane and LA Tech for travelling fans, and has history with schools like La Tech. I think the schools would coerce UTEP to allow them to add NMSU over UTEP's gripes for the league's 12th to be a travel partner for UTEP as they provide much needed strong basketball.

Travel partners = UTEP+NMSU, UNT+ SMU, UTSA+Texas St, Houston+Rice, La Tech+Tulsa, ULL+Tulane

I think the conference still would look to add some top BB only schools to jumpstart the conference's basketball identity, expand a little beyond the texas borders and add media markets. Wichita State is an outlier in the MVC and has no football. They would probably join anyway, but if you promised them they would always have a home in the conference as a non-football member and as an all sports member if they eventually decide to add football, they'd definitely join. UALR has the only city of note in Arkansas and a developed BB program. They offer convient travel. With big markets, a tighter footprint, top academics, and developed BB programs like Tulsa, UTEP, WSU, UALR, ULL, Houston as well as slumbering programs like UNT and SMU, the SWC would have some appeal to private unversity St. Louis. St. Louis could be UALR's travel partner. Like UNT, Denver is another emerging program. Denver is a top private in a big market that could be added to balance St. Louis and be a travel partner to WSU.

SWC South: Houston, Rice, Tulsa, La Tech, ULL, Tulane, St. Louis (non-football), UALR (non-football)
SWC West: UTEP, NMSU, Denver (non-football), Wichita St. (non-football), UNT, SMU, UTSA, Texas St.,


Leaving a WAC of: Nevada, Utah State, Idaho, San Jose State,

* WAC adds (3) + (5 for departing teams): With their league gutted, the WAC would need to beg the NCAA to allow them to keep their autobid (may not be likely) or raid a conference with 6 members. IMO a defacto merger with the powerbrokers in the Big Sky would make a world of sense/may be their only recourse to retain a ticket to the big dance.

The Big Sky has a number of teams that could move to FBS and survive, but has limitations --- Montana won't go without Montana State, etc. (I seem to recall Montana has also said they won't move up until there is a path for them to the BCS. The Quinn plan does seem to make the WAC offer them that.)

Big Sky football teams that could survive at the FBS level could move up. Sac St, PSU (apparently), and Montana have the stadiums to do it. With some smart stadium enlargement, Montana State, Weber State, and N. AZ could struggle through an upgrade (ala Idaho). Teams that could not (E. Wash, Idaho State, N. Colorado) would likely fall to the GW for all sports. NDSU and SDSU would be potent adds to bring the conference up to 12 football playing FBS members. Their stadiums are similar caliber.

(I would not expect any moves that would seem from some perspective to be benevolent from this mix of schools, so don't expect UCDavis and UVU as non-football members.)

West: San Jose St, Sacramento St, Idaho, PSU, N Arizona, Nevada,
Inland: Utah St, Weber St, Montana, Montana St, NDSU, SDSU

Leaving a Sunbelt of: UNO (non-football), ULM, Arky St, WKU, MTU, USA,

* Sunbelt adds (1) + (7 for departing teams): The Sunbelt would not do as well as in the previous scenario, but would survive just fine. The remaining 6 all sports teams would still have their autobid thanks to UNO. UNO would need to be retained in this scenario, suggest that final conference makeup would likely be a 12/14 or 12/16 conference.

I do not think the sunbelt minus ULL and UNT would bother pursuing Lamar (a startup football program out of their footprint) when they could get the same thing (good BB) out of non-football Oral Roberts with a better market to balance UNO for the time being. Maybe this conference would add two more non-football BB schools to make for travel partners, but I am worn out and don't want to look for them, so 12/14 it is.

North Division: Oral Roberts (non-football), UL Monroe, Arky St, Western Kentucky, Eastern Kentucky, Middle Tennessee State, Appalachian St
South Division: UNO (non-football), Jacksonville St, South Alabama, The Citadel, Georgia St., Georgia Southern, Florida A&M


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