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 Post subject: The Hawai'i Problem
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:18 pm 
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When we discuss the WAC we are ultimately discussing the "Hawai'i Problem", that is the fact that there is only one university with an enrollment greater than 10k in the Island chain, so no matter what conference you propose Hawai'i (UH-Manoa, the state flagship of the UH system) play in, the other members of their conference will be taking a lengthy trip to Hawaii to play a single game.

As someone who spent my first ten years living in Hawai'i, the situation bums me out immensely, hence this thread. My question to you is, how does this situation get fixed? How do we save athletics in the aloha state?

The NCAA has allowed concessions to keep UH viable like allowing them to play 13 games instead of 12. So maybe some support can come from the NCAA. Obama is another Hawai'i kid, so it is possible we might see government aid for small states like Hawai'i or national legislation that affects universities that might impact Hawai'i in a positive way.

I have thought that maybe the answer is to get a non-football travel partner for UH-Manoa. There are 4 DII candidates in the PAC West, 3 on Oahu (876,151) like UH and one on the Big Island:

Chaminade University of Honolulu - 2836 students, roman catholic university with a reasonable name in basketball. McCabe Gymnasium seats 2800 for basketball. I could not find the endowment, but one would suspect it is one of the largest endowments of our candidates.

Brigham Young University Hawai'i (BYUH) - 2400 students. Located on Oahu, near Honolulu proper. Would BYU pump money into it's satellite reminder of it's WAC past? It already has a 4500 seat arena, the Cannon Activities Center.

Hawai'i Pacific University - With an enrollment of 8500-9000, HPU is the island's largest private university and the Island chain's 2nd largest university. It has two campuses, one of those in Honolulu. They play some of their games in the former Basketball home of the UH-Manoa Rainbow Warriors, the 7700 seat Blaisdell Center, a workable home for upper level FBS basketball.

UH-Hilo - A tiny public with only 3,800 students, but still the 3rd largest university in the Islands. UHH is located in the Island's second largest metro area (Hilo = 40k), and on the BIG ISLAND --- the island with the second highest population (148,677 as of 2000). UH-Hilo has some local support for an independent status. In the last decade there was a local push to break off the Hilo campus into a proposed, "Hawaiʻi State University" that lead to a bill being proposed in the Hawai'i House of Representatives. That bill was allowed to die. Proponents argued that if let to develop into an independent university, Hawaii State would grow rapidly. Opponents argued it would sap UH-Manoa (which seems to imply UH-Manoa may be taking more than it's share of resources, The last link gets into that. I'll leave it to you to decide if the arguement put forth by Manoa is a fair one...).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University ... sity.3F.22

http://www.uhh.hawaii.edu/uhh/congress/ ... 05_001.doc.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/artic ... ln01p.html

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/artic ... ln02p.html

There are arguements that suggest that having 4 DII programs was a tremendous help in helping the PAC West reload to 6 teams when their last confernece mates broke away. A counter arguement might pose the question of whether having 4 teams in Hawaii in a conference actually drives off conference mates by making too many trips to Hawai'i needed.

I have some ideas, but as many have pointed out to me, I am given to being somewhat closed minded when I think something is quite clear. I hope you will share your ideas. What can be done to preserve the future of collegiate athletics at a high level in the rainbow state?


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 Post subject: Re: The Hawai'i Problem
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:58 pm 
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Hawaii would be be a nice fit in the Pac10. Those schools could afford the travel.


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 Post subject: Re: The Hawai'i Problem
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:27 pm 
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The situation is easy to remedy: Just setup a few buildings in California for the student-athletes to take classes in during the specific sports season. Over a few years, the lack of long flights will pay for the new buildings. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: The Hawai'i Problem
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:18 pm 
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Quinn wrote:
The situation is easy to remedy: Just setup a few buildings in California for the student-athletes to take classes in during the specific sports season. Over a few years, the lack of long flights will pay for the new buildings. ;)


Got any real solutions, wiesenheimer? :)


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 Post subject: Re: The Hawai'i Problem
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:20 pm 
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playa4life wrote:
Hawaii would be be a nice fit in the Pac10. Those schools could afford the travel.


A very true statement, but how would UH become a desired member of the PAC 10?


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 Post subject: Re: The Hawai'i Problem
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:28 pm 
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Yes, it's true that Hawaii and La Tech are the most awkwardly placed schools in IA - oh excuse me, FBS. La Tech, at least, could join the Sunbelt but doesn't want to. Hawaii has no good option.

IMO the WAC would be better off without these two, replacing them with Montana and Montana St.


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 Post subject: Re: The Hawai'i Problem
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:28 am 
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westwolf wrote:
Yes, it's true that Hawaii and La Tech are the most awkwardly placed schools in IA - oh excuse me, FBS. La Tech, at least, could join the Sunbelt but doesn't want to. Hawaii has no good option.

IMO the WAC would be better off without these two, replacing them with Montana and Montana St.


LOL! hey now...While it is true that in therms of cost and travel that would be a lot better, you are talking about cutting your undisputed #2 football school and a school that has generally been #4 or #5 to add schools that may not prove to be much better than Idaho, if that. Montana could be Troy, but they could also be Idaho/NMSU/Utah St. Montana State, considering their stadium, would definitely be another Idaho, IMO.

I think that is currently an anchor for Hawaii (i have been as formal as possible in laying this out, but I never used the apostrophe when I lived in Hawaii so from here on out no apostrophe in my posts) in the WAC. If the WAC loses Boise to the MWC in an FBS push, the WAC would likely feel they could not avoid the stature loss of Hawaii.

Anyway, I am begging for the best ideas from smart guys like you, Quinn, Playa, and all the rest on how to protect the future of Hawaii sports.

Throw me a bone, Wolf! How would you make this workable?


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 Post subject: Re: The Hawai'i Problem
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:16 pm 
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Hawaii and Colorado
or
Hawaii and Utah
or
Hawaii and New Mexico
or
Hawaii and UNLV

to the PAC 10.


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 Post subject: Re: The Hawai'i Problem
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:56 pm 
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Hawaii is popular for certain out of conference games for schools looking for an exotic trip for teams and alumni, often planned or scheduled a few years in advanced. As to a conference, the WAC, where they currently reside, is probably their best situation available. Winging it as an independent would be a big gamble for Hawaii. Some years it could work fine for football; others, it would be a scheduling mess, and that includes non-football sports.


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 Post subject: Re: The Hawai'i Problem
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:20 pm 
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I think the PAC 10 fans would love the excuse to go to Hawaii every two years.


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 Post subject: Re: The Hawai'i Problem
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:16 am 
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playa4life wrote:
Hawaii and Colorado
or
Hawaii and Utah
or
Hawaii and New Mexico
or
Hawaii and UNLV

to the PAC 10.

I think the PAC 10 fans would love the excuse to go to Hawaii every two years.


I am sure they would, but how do you leverage that to make the powers that be go along with that? A Letter writing campaign? (I am not trying to be a jerk, that is what I thought might be one way to try to leverage fan support.)

The big hurdle in my mind with UH to the PAC 10 is actually academics. Hawaii has a very substandard high school academic system, so Hawaii graduates are behind going into college. UH is the state school where most Hawaiian go, so UH is always working from behind. I think UH has a ton of potential as the plant and animal life is perfect for UH to become the ultimate research university (it is like having a university in a very rich wildlife reserve) if government funding was there, but academics do and will lag behind.

I think UH and UNLV is not doable. UH & Utah is more workable if it is in tandem with BYU getting into another BCS conference (Big 12), but is not likely otherwise as Utah is still a small population state. Colorado gives a big market, is a good school and research university and the PAC 10 was prepared to admit them with UT. Hawaii is no UT, espcially academically and marketwise, but maybe if Colorado was coming in they could overlook Hawaii's lack of substantial market and just judge them as a supplimental market to the denver market and in that way a better option than CSU. UNM is a good research university but a similarly poor academic school in a small poor state like Hawaii.

In the scenario of a Colorado/UH admission, UCLA and USC could trade divisions every 2 years.

UH to the PAC 10 is an interesting idea, of course, but seems like a huge uphill struggle.

Maybe if the Obama campaign pushed something that gave a ton of money to island universities for Oceanographic research, Ichthyological research, Orinthological research, Zoological research, and the study of Marine plants + facility upgrades to support all that research, UH would academically have a niche that would make them more acceptable to the PAC 10. Then, I think they would be on the radar and a good partner for Colorado.

Perhaps Obama would also be so wise as to locate his presidential library on UH's campus....?


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 Post subject: Re: The Hawai'i Problem
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:07 pm 
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finiteman wrote:
playa4life wrote:
Hawaii and Colorado
or
Hawaii and Utah
or
Hawaii and New Mexico
or
Hawaii and UNLV

to the PAC 10.

I think the PAC 10 fans would love the excuse to go to Hawaii every two years.


I am sure they would, but how do you leverage that to make the powers that be go along with that? A Letter writing campaign? (I am not trying to be a jerk, that is what I thought might be one way to try to leverage fan support.)

The big hurdle in my mind with UH to the PAC 10 is actually academics. Hawaii has a very substandard high school academic system, so Hawaii graduates are behind going into college. UH is the state school where most Hawaiian go, so UH is always working from behind. I think UH has a ton of potential as the plant and animal life is perfect for UH to become the ultimate research university (it is like having a university in a very rich wildlife reserve) if government funding was there, but academics do and will lag behind.

I think UH and UNLV is not doable. UH & Utah is more workable if it is in tandem with BYU getting into another BCS conference (Big 12), but is not likely otherwise as Utah is still a small population state. Colorado gives a big market, is a good school and research university and the PAC 10 was prepared to admit them with UT. Hawaii is no UT, espcially academically and marketwise, but maybe if Colorado was coming in they could overlook Hawaii's lack of substantial market and just judge them as a supplimental market to the denver market and in that way a better option than CSU. UNM is a good research university but a similarly poor academic school in a small poor state like Hawaii.

In the scenario of a Colorado/UH admission, UCLA and USC could trade divisions every 2 years.

UH to the PAC 10 is an interesting idea, of course, but seems like a huge uphill struggle.

Maybe if the Obama campaign pushed something that gave a ton of money to island universities for Oceanographic research, Ichthyological research, Orinthological research, Zoological research, and the study of Marine plants + facility upgrades to support all that research, UH would academically have a niche that would make them more acceptable to the PAC 10. Then, I think they would be on the radar and a good partner for Colorado.

Perhaps Obama would also be so wise as to locate his presidential library on UH's campus....?


The big hurdle is not academics. It's a substantial hurdle... but as I've said before, it's merely a convenient excuse for the Pac-10 that happens to bring forth the same results as the REAL reason this does not happen.

Let me "personalize" that reason. Oregon State is still nursing an overall AD deficit. They are not about to cede TV money in order to bail out Hawai'i. Washington State may not be in the same boat, but they need every last cent of that money. Those are public institutions; they can face taxpayer scrutiny if the conference makes wicked financial decisions.

TV money goes down because ABC will not pay more for Hawai'i, therefore you divide the pot 11 ways instead of 10. Since you're talking 12, think 12 instead of 10.

"But the championship game will overcome that decline."

No it won't, or else the Pac-10 would already have expanded. They very likely already know what ABC would offer them for 12 teams. That's why Tom Hansen talked about the populations of Colorado and Texas being so key to any Pac-10 expansion scenario- that literally is the only way ABC pays more. I believe it is safer to assume that backchannels exist, that numbers are almost continually crunched for scenarios like this.


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 Post subject: Re: The Hawai'i Problem
PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 9:57 pm 
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Understand, I am not advocating that UH to the PAC 10 is a likely scenario, but this thread is about brainstorming ideas to make their position more secure, so I am not throwing anything out right now. The idea of UH in could make sense if #12 is Colorado. If the B10 goes to 12, so will the PAC 10. I think the Pac 10 still likes everything about Colorado and their market. If UH could develop a major academic feather in their cap, I think they might be a good partner for UC allowing a healthy PAC 12 with in conference play. Maybe USC and UCLA always being in opposite divisions, but playing each other in a "rivalry" game each season.

Denver would be the big market. Hawaii would be a small supplimental market that gives the PAC 10 a reason to go with them instead of say CSU. When you look at the PAC10 "culture" you don't think of Utah, BYU, UNM, UNLV,or UNR...but UC and UH? Yeah, they fit.

I do hope you will add some ideas to this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: The Hawai'i Problem
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 6:18 pm 
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I think it would take decades of success by Hawaii first. I'm talking constant BCS bids every year, national championship game, basketball sweet 16s...just much overall success. The Pac 10 could have invited Hawaii in the past but hasn't. So my logic tells me they'd need to be successful first (more than other more attractive candidates) before they'd ever be a candidate.

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 Post subject: Re: The Hawai'i Problem
PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:47 pm 
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Quinn, I am going to keep pushing you on this...Throw out some ideas.


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