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PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:23 pm 
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Series of posts about a unique and new Big East conference with a number of different approaches from the current conference system in place.


Posts were moved from an existing thread to this new one.





SJSUFan2010 wrote:








Post Written by SJSUfan moved to the Dream Conferences Thread by Quinn






hickory_cornhusker wrote:
With SJSU's fan idea you wouldn't necessarily need to find more OOC games. There's no reason you couldn't play the teams from the other division. They won't count in the battle for a conference championship but they shouldn't in the first place. It is ridiculous that Kentucky could get the three worst teams in the SEC West and Florida could get the three best and their records are held side by side to determine the SEC East champion as if the schedules are equal.

I don't see why Rutgers wouldn't play Syracuse and UConn. Both options are better than playing Buffalo and Middle Tennessee State.

If you are good at setting up schedules you could reduce yourself to one OOC game if you really wanted to and play all six in the other division. I doubt any school would do this but there is nothing against it.

The problem with SJSU's plan is how unweildly the other sports become. Football may be king but the other sports won't be completely forgotten and a 20 team league would be extremely difficult to manage.



This is exactly the point I was just going to make (the SEC point was dead on). Only games in your division count in the standings to determine the teams that play for the championship. Schools CAN play between the divisions but don't have to (thus they will essentially count as OOC games). In ND, Navy, and Army's cases, they will most likely choose to play more games out of conference.


tute79 wrote:
If Notre Dame won't forego football independence to join the financially-lucrative Big Ten, they SURELY aren't going to do it to join the Big East.

The big beefy NFL prospect guys BY AND LARGE would never even consider a military commitment.
So Army and Navy most years struggle to compete with top FBS teams. This year (with both + Air Force going to bowls is an anamoly). Before 2003, Army FB was being humiliated in CUSA.

Army / Navy are NOT good enough to consistenly beat up on Big East bottom-feeders, and travel for Army / Navy's other sports is better off in the Patriot.
Hence FB independence, and their freedom to schedule as they did this year seems to suit both Army and Navy.


I would imagine a conference like this would make A LOT of money. I'd be willing to bet they'd start to compete with the Big 10. But this is mostly about the BCS money. Those are big pay outs that Army and Navy will never get and ND is struggling to get to. I don't know who you're kidding but Navy or ND would probably have won the Big East this (ND beat Pitt and Navy beat ND easily, I'd take them over UConn). Army would be a bottom dweller sure, but those two would win.

But this conference wouldn't really be about becoming a football powerhouse. This is mostly about tv sets. ND, Army, and Navy are some of the most followed schools in the nation.

lash wrote:
East: UConn, Rutgers, Army, Navy, UCF, USF

West: Syracuse, Pitt, WVU











RESPONSE by Lash:



SJSUFan2010 wrote:
hickory_cornhusker wrote:
With SJSU's fan idea you wouldn't necessarily need to find more OOC games. There's no reason you couldn't play the teams from the other division. They won't count in the battle for a conference championship but they shouldn't in the first place. It is ridiculous that Kentucky could get the three worst teams in the SEC West and Florida could get the three best and their records are held side by side to determine the SEC East champion as if the schedules are equal.

I don't see why Rutgers wouldn't play Syracuse and UConn. Both options are better than playing Buffalo and Middle Tennessee State.

If you are good at setting up schedules you could reduce yourself to one OOC game if you really wanted to and play all six in the other division. I doubt any school would do this but there is nothing against it.

The problem with SJSU's plan is how unweildly the other sports become. Football may be king but the other sports won't be completely forgotten and a 20 team league would be extremely difficult to manage.



This is exactly the point I was just going to make (the SEC point was dead on). Only games in your division count in the standings to determine the teams that play for the championship. Schools CAN play between the divisions but don't have to (thus they will essentially count as OOC games). In ND, Navy, and Army's cases, they will most likely choose to play more games out of conference.


tute79 wrote:
If Notre Dame won't forego football independence to join the financially-lucrative Big Ten, they SURELY aren't going to do it to join the Big East.

The big beefy NFL prospect guys BY AND LARGE would never even consider a military commitment.
So Army and Navy most years struggle to compete with top FBS teams. This year (with both + Air Force going to bowls is an anamoly). Before 2003, Army FB was being humiliated in CUSA.

Army / Navy are NOT good enough to consistenly beat up on Big East bottom-feeders, and travel for Army / Navy's other sports is better off in the Patriot.
Hence FB independence, and their freedom to schedule as they did this year seems to suit both Army and Navy.


I would imagine a conference like this would make A LOT of money. I'd be willing to bet they'd start to compete with the Big 10. But this is mostly about the BCS money. Those are big pay outs that Army and Navy will never get and ND is struggling to get to. I don't know who you're kidding but Navy or ND would probably have won the Big East this (ND beat Pitt and Navy beat ND easily, I'd take them over UConn). Army would be a bottom dweller sure, but those two would win.

But this conference wouldn't really be about becoming a football powerhouse. This is mostly about tv sets. ND, Army, and Navy are some of the most followed schools in the nation.

lash wrote:
East: UConn, Rutgers, Army, Navy, UCF, USF

West: Syracuse, Pitt, WVU, Cincinnati, Louisville, TCU

...

East: Pitt, Syracuse, UConn, Rutgers, South Florida, UCF

West: WVU, Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis, TCU, Houston


Not a chance. If the Big 10 wants 16, at least one (probably two or even three) of those are gone. Now you're looking at C-USA. That is on par with the other BCS conferences. Not a chance.


Here's how I would see it. Nova upgrades, (fantasy time), ND, Navy, Army join in football. TCU invite is revoked. This gives 12 football, 16 all sports. If Boston College and Maryland want to join we drop DePaul and Seton Hall. That's 14 football and 16 all sports or if they stay 18 all sports. That would look like this:

North:
ND
Syracuse
Pitt
UConn
Boston College
Navy - Football
Army-Football
Providence - Other sports
Marquette - Other sports
St. John's - Other sports

South
Cincinnati
West Virginia
Rutgers
USF
Louisville
Nova
Maryland
Georgetown - Other sports

SJSUfan, we have a dream thread for these type of ideas.

The Big East is not going to revoke the offer to have TCU join football in 2012.

The Big Ten is not going to expand beyond 12 members for foreseeable future. Maybe someday the Big Ten may expand again. I would not worry to much about the Big East losing Rutgers or Syracuse for now. Global warming is probably more of a concern for the Big East.

What we can expect is the Big East will expand to 10 football playing schools that will either have Villanova upgrading or some new school identified as the tenth school which will probably be UCF.

The Big East will most likely play 9 conference games once Villanova or some other school is identified and there will be no need for some wacky type schedule format of playing partial Big East schedules that include Notre Dame.

If I were you would be more concerned about the future of SJSU surviving in FBS and finding a valid conference to play football. My bet is the Big East will be playing a full FBS and BCS AQ football schedule a lot longer than SJSU will be playing in a valid or reliable FBS league.









RESPONSE by SJSUfan:



lash wrote:
SJSUfan, we have a dream thread for these type of ideas.


I wouldn't exactly call it a dream. The Big East is on its way to being irrelevant, I'm trying to think of a fairly realistic scenario for them to stay a top conference (as opposed to your idea where they basically become C-USA). ND hasn't joined the Big 10 so money isn't what they're after, why not at least make the offer? They are already in the conference in other sports, seems like something that could at least be discussed (but no, I'm sure it won't happen).


lash wrote:
The Big Ten is not going to expand beyond 12 members for foreseeable future. Maybe someday the Big Ten may expand again. I would not worry to much about the Big East losing Rutgers or Syracuse for now. Global warming is probably more of a concern for the Big East.


Dang, you can't foresee Big 10 going to 16? What are you looking at, next week? And it's too, not to...


lash wrote:
What we can expect is the Big East will expand to 10 football playing schools that will either have Villanova upgrading or some new school identified as the tenth school which will probably be UCF.

The Big East will most likely play 9 conference games once Villanova or some other school is identified and there will be no need for some wacky type schedule format of playing partial Big East schedules that include Notre Dame.


I don't doubt you're right. I wasn't passing the idea off as likely, simply as something that could be considered. Why should a school's record against the opposite division factor into who wins the division and plays in the Conference championship game? See the SEC point above. I'd love to hear your reasoning against what we were saying? Do games against the WAC count in Pac-10 standings? Same basic idea.

lash wrote:
If I were you would be more concerned about the future of SJSU surviving in FBS and finding a valid conference to play football. My bet is the Big East will be playing a full FBS and BCS AQ football schedule a lot longer than SJSU will be playing in a valid or reliable FBS league.


Don't know what that has to do with the Big East which is what I thought this thread was about. And please, tell me where I said the Big East won't be playing FBS football? Oh, and SJSU is not an AQ school so obviously the Big East will be playing AQ football longer than they will...












RESPONSE by seanbo:



Response to SJSU fan's idea.

______________________________

First, TCU is not going to be UNINVITED from the Big East. That genie is already out of the bottle.

Second, Notre Dame will only join the Big East in football if they can write their own deal and you can bet what the Irish would ask for would make Texas blush. Even if the other Big East members were willing to accept Notre Dame's proposal, you have to wonder if the Irish could still come up with the numbers that could better what the Big Ten has to offer?

Third, I doubt very seriously if Army and Navy would want to join the Big East. I think they will stay independent. Army was in Conference USA for 6 years (1998-2004) and got out. I don't think they won more than 3 games during their time there. Joining the Big East is another step up from Conference USA. If Army or Navy were to join a conference, they should join the MAC. The MAC helped Temple revive it's program which floundered in the Big East. Also, Army and Navy's annual athletic budget is similar to the MAC members budgets approximately $25 million. Big East athletic programs budgets are double that and some close to triple. Other than geographically, I don't think it's a good fit. Yes, they would win here and there, but overall, they are handicapped and would have a hard time competing in the Big East on a consistant basis.

Last, would some please explain why I keep hearing people discuss BC coming back to the Big East. I just don't get it. Why would they leave a very stable conference with a lucrative TV deal. Most, if not all, Big East teams would leave for the ACC, not the other way around. As far as Maryland going, no way they leave for the Big East but I could see them leaving for the Big 10.

In my eyes and stated by many others on this site, adding Central Florida, Houston and Memphis would make for the strongest possible Big East.













RESPONSE by SJSUfan:


seanbo wrote:
First, TCU is not going to be UNINVITED from the Big East. That genie is already out of the bottle.

Second, Notre Dame will only join the Big East in football if they can write their own deal and you can bet what the Irish would ask for would make Texas blush. Even if the other Big East members were willing to accept Notre Dame's proposal, you have to wonder if the Irish could still come up with the numbers that could better what the Big Ten has to offer?


That's what I was thinking. If ND is making the calls, TCU might reconsider going in the first place or the conference might do what they did to Temple and vote them out. And also, in this scenario, they only leave if Nova doesn't upgrade. If they don't upgrade, TCU stays and maybe a non basketball school would be added (or subtracted) to even things out.

Again, don't think ND is after money. I think it's the independence. What they would get here is somewhere in between a full conference schedule and independence. They get to keep all of their rivalry games and get to compete in a cupcake conference for a BCS spot.


seanbo wrote:
Third, I doubt very seriously if Army and Navy would want to join the Big East. I think they will stay independent. Army was in Conference USA for 6 years (1998-2004) and got out. I don't think they won more than 3 games during their time there. Joining the Big East is another step up from Conference USA. If Army or Navy were to join a conference, they should join the MAC. The MAC helped Temple revive it's program which floundered in the Big East. Also, Army and Navy's annual athletic budget is similar to the MAC members budgets approximately $25 million. Big East athletic programs budgets are double that and some close to triple. Other than geographically, I don't think it's a good fit. Yes, they would win here and there, but overall, they are handicapped and would have a hard time competing in the Big East on a consistant basis.


We're only asking Army and Navy to compete in football. I'm not asking them to triple their budgets so that their women's soccer team can compete with the other Big East schools. And just to point out, Temple beat Big East champion UConn by TWO TOUCHDOWNS and they finished 3rd in MAC east! The Big East is far from a football power conference. But also, if ND were to go and the offer was there, they might consider it more than if the two of them only got the offer. To me it would likely be a package deal.

And look at their schedule in this scenario. Navy for example only has to play Army, ND, UConn, Pitt, and Syracuse. They already plan two of those games. And with the rest of their schedule they can pretend they are an SEC team and schedule games against the SB and MAC.


seanbo wrote:
Last, would some please explain why I keep hearing people discuss BC coming back to the Big East. I just don't get it. Why would they leave a very stable conference with a lucrative TV deal. Most, if not all, Big East teams would leave for the ACC, not the other way around. As far as Maryland going, no way they leave for the Big East but I could see them leaving for the Big 10.


Well, the thinking is if the conference could make this work for a awhile (and I was thinking like 5-10 years) and start to bring in money better than the ACC and/or rivaling the Big 10, then maybe BC and Maryland would consider it. This would be a long ways away, well after the Big East renegotiated its TV contracts for football and basketball.


seanbo wrote:
In my eyes and stated by many others on this site, adding Central Florida, Houston and Memphis would make for the strongest possible Big East.


I just want to point out that that would mean 5 teams in the Big East in 2012 were members of C-USA in 2004. Should one or even two teams leave for the Big 10 down the road, the Big East could have as many as 7 members of the 2004 C-USA lineup (counting football only btw, Marquette and DePaul are out of C-USA also). Is that making the strongest Big East? Does that conference deserve to stay an AQ conference? Not one school in the Big East conference would stay if they got an invite some where else. If the Big 10 goes to 16, the SEC will expand, and then the ACC. Who will be left then? The Big East would have to literally merge with C-USA east.

I know we can keep finding short term solutions, but long term, the Big East needs to do a lot more than simply add UCF to stay relevant in the future. I do think they should do something drastic and unusual. They could change college football and the way conferences decide who plays in the conference championship games. Or they can add UCF this time and add ECU, Houston, and/or Memphis when they lose some schools down the road and become C-USA of 2004.











RESPONSE by Quinn:


SJSUFan2010 wrote:
lash wrote:
SJSUfan, we have a dream thread for these type of ideas.


I wouldn't exactly call it a dream. The Big East is on its way to being irrelevant, I'm trying to think of a fairly realistic scenario for them to stay a top conference (as opposed to your idea where they basically become C-USA). ND hasn't joined the Big 10 so money isn't what they're after, why not at least make the offer? They are already in the conference in other sports, seems like something that could at least be discussed (but no, I'm sure it won't happen).


lash wrote:
The Big Ten is not going to expand beyond 12 members for foreseeable future. Maybe someday the Big Ten may expand again. I would not worry to much about the Big East losing Rutgers or Syracuse for now. Global warming is probably more of a concern for the Big East.


Dang, you can't foresee Big 10 going to 16? What are you looking at, next week? And it's too, not to...


lash wrote:
What we can expect is the Big East will expand to 10 football playing schools that will either have Villanova upgrading or some new school identified as the tenth school which will probably be UCF.

The Big East will most likely play 9 conference games once Villanova or some other school is identified and there will be no need for some wacky type schedule format of playing partial Big East schedules that include Notre Dame.


I don't doubt you're right. I wasn't passing the idea off as likely, simply as something that could be considered. Why should a school's record against the opposite division factor into who wins the division and plays in the Conference championship game? See the SEC point above. I'd love to hear your reasoning against what we were saying? Do games against the WAC count in Pac-10 standings? Same basic idea.

lash wrote:
If I were you would be more concerned about the future of SJSU surviving in FBS and finding a valid conference to play football. My bet is the Big East will be playing a full FBS and BCS AQ football schedule a lot longer than SJSU will be playing in a valid or reliable FBS league.


Don't know what that has to do with the Big East which is what I thought this thread was about. And please, tell me where I said the Big East won't be playing FBS football? Oh, and SJSU is not an AQ school so obviously the Big East will be playing AQ football longer than they will...


SJSUfan, it might seem like it's not fantasy to you personally. But there are just so many hard-set criteria points that we are now able to use as facts when it comes to conference realignment. For instance, schools will not leave a conference they are making more money in to join a lesser conference. Schools no longer take the risks of hoping things work out...they need solid, rationale financial projections. So any speculation that an ACC school would join the Big East makes a post "dream thread" material. For the sake of the forum, I hope you don't take it personally...but keep those type of posts for the dream thread forum.

We also know that the Big East has for almost 2 decades tried to get ND in for football. ND is in the Big East because of the catholic schools and Syracuse, Uconn and Pitt. Again, Notre Dame is not going to take less money to be in the Big East than to be independent. No school will ever do that in todays business climate. They might pass on the Big Ten and making more money, sure, but that's different than just throwing away money they already have.

Army and Navy are not schools for Big East discussion in this thread. I know it's a long thread to read from the beginning, but there are probably 50-100 references to Army and Navy both rejecting Big East overtures. This includes them rejecting a joint membership where they would only play 4 conference games each, 8 total.



As fro uninviting a school...this isn't a discussion about little Johny's birthday party and not wanting Bobby to come anymore. This is a multimillion dollar deal. The Big East would be hit with one of the biggest lawsuits we've ever seen if they rebuffed TCU now. These things do not happen in college sports. Schools might chose to return to a conference, but conferences can't just decide to boot a school they invited without risk of serious lawsuits.



Thanks for posting and being a member here. It's just that many of these things your proposing are completely impossible. For some, you need read only 1 page back in the thread and you'll probably find references to some (like Army/Navy, ND, etc).















Response by SJSUfan:



Quinn wrote:
SJSUfan, it might seem like it's not fantasy to you personally. But there are just so many hard-set criteria points that we are now able to use as facts when it comes to conference realignment. For instance, schools will not leave a conference they are making more money in to join a lesser conference. Schools no longer take the risks of hoping things work out...they need solid, rationale financial projections. So any speculation that an ACC school would join the Big East makes a post "dream thread" material. For the sake of the forum, I hope you don't take it personally...but keep those type of posts for the dream thread forum.


Well I think of it as expansion. I'm not proposing a new Northeast conference with like Penn St, BC, OSU ect. I'm suggesting concessions being made to just 3 schools. I had another poster even agree that only counting division games makes a lot of sense (see the SEC point). I have yet to have anyone refute that idea which is why I don't see how my idea is a "dream."

As for your ACC question, please read all of what I have posted as I have already explained this. No where do I say BC will join tomorrow or anything like that.


Quinn wrote:
We also know that the Big East has for almost 2 decades tried to get ND in for football. ND is in the Big East because of the catholic schools and Syracuse, Uconn and Pitt. Again, Notre Dame is not going to take less money to be in the Big East than to be independent. No school will ever do that in todays business climate. They might pass on the Big Ten and making more money, sure, but that's different than just throwing away money they already have.


Explain to me how they would make less money? Is NBC not going to televise their games if they suddenly become Big East games? Heck, I'd imagine NBC might even want to do the whole Big East contract when the conference can renegotiate its TV deals. Maybe they won't make as much as the Big 10 (though I'm betting they would get close eventually) but they wouldn't lose money


Quinn wrote:
Army and Navy are not schools for Big East discussion in this thread. I know it's a long thread to read from the beginning, but there are probably 50-100 references to Army and Navy both rejecting Big East overtures. This includes them rejecting a joint membership where they would only play 4 conference games each, 8 total.


Joint membership? Who the heck would accept that dumb idea? How would that even work? Well to point out, I'm only asking them to play 5 games and 2 are already on their schedules.

Quinn wrote:
As fro uninviting a school...this isn't a discussion about little Johny's birthday party and not wanting Bobby to come anymore. This is a multimillion dollar deal. The Big East would be hit with one of the biggest lawsuits we've ever seen if they rebuffed TCU now. These things do not happen in college sports. Schools might chose to return to a conference, but conferences can't just decide to boot a school they invited without risk of serious lawsuits.


Which is why I asked if it was even possible. Many suggested Boise unaccept the MWC offer after Utah left (before it all blew up). If Boise could unaccept, couldn't the Big East uninvite? And wasn't Temple voted out by the Big East? What would be the difference (I'd really like to know if there is)?


Quinn wrote:
Thanks for posting and being a member here. It's just that many of these things your proposing are completely impossible. For some, you need read only 1 page back in the thread and you'll probably find references to some (like Army/Navy, ND, etc).


Idunno man, other than "it won't happen" and "it's impossible" I don't hear arguments against what I suggested (or what is actually impossible, has anyone ever asked ND's AD if he'd consider this idea?). We can sit here and say that ND won't join the Big 10 and get more money so they'll never join a conference, but in reality it's being stuck with 8 or 9 conference games that keeps them away. You can't tell me a chance to play a conference championship game in NYC isn't worth considering if a conference is offering you almost complete freedom.












Response by Quinn:


SJSUFan2010 wrote:
Quinn wrote:
SJSUfan, it might seem like it's not fantasy to you personally. But there are just so many hard-set criteria points that we are now able to use as facts when it comes to conference realignment. For instance, schools will not leave a conference they are making more money in to join a lesser conference. Schools no longer take the risks of hoping things work out...they need solid, rationale financial projections. So any speculation that an ACC school would join the Big East makes a post "dream thread" material. For the sake of the forum, I hope you don't take it personally...but keep those type of posts for the dream thread forum.


Well I think of it as expansion. I'm not proposing a new Northeast conference with like Penn St, BC, OSU ect. I'm suggesting concessions being made to just 3 schools. I had another poster even agree that only counting division games makes a lot of sense (see the SEC point). I have yet to have anyone refute that idea which is why I don't see how my idea is a "dream."

As for your ACC question, please read all of what I have posted as I have already explained this. No where do I say BC will join tomorrow or anything like that.


Quinn wrote:
We also know that the Big East has for almost 2 decades tried to get ND in for football. ND is in the Big East because of the catholic schools and Syracuse, Uconn and Pitt. Again, Notre Dame is not going to take less money to be in the Big East than to be independent. No school will ever do that in todays business climate. They might pass on the Big Ten and making more money, sure, but that's different than just throwing away money they already have.


Explain to me how they would make less money? Is NBC not going to televise their games if they suddenly become Big East games? Heck, I'd imagine NBC might even want to do the whole Big East contract when the conference can renegotiate its TV deals. Maybe they won't make as much as the Big 10 (though I'm betting they would get close eventually) but they wouldn't lose money


Quinn wrote:
Army and Navy are not schools for Big East discussion in this thread. I know it's a long thread to read from the beginning, but there are probably 50-100 references to Army and Navy both rejecting Big East overtures. This includes them rejecting a joint membership where they would only play 4 conference games each, 8 total.


Joint membership? Who the heck would accept that dumb idea? How would that even work? Well to point out, I'm only asking them to play 5 games and 2 are already on their schedules.

Quinn wrote:
As fro uninviting a school...this isn't a discussion about little Johny's birthday party and not wanting Bobby to come anymore. This is a multimillion dollar deal. The Big East would be hit with one of the biggest lawsuits we've ever seen if they rebuffed TCU now. These things do not happen in college sports. Schools might chose to return to a conference, but conferences can't just decide to boot a school they invited without risk of serious lawsuits.


Which is why I asked if it was even possible. Many suggested Boise unaccept the MWC offer after Utah left (before it all blew up). If Boise could unaccept, couldn't the Big East uninvite? And wasn't Temple voted out by the Big East? What would be the difference (I'd really like to know if there is)?


Quinn wrote:
Thanks for posting and being a member here. It's just that many of these things your proposing are completely impossible. For some, you need read only 1 page back in the thread and you'll probably find references to some (like Army/Navy, ND, etc).


Idunno man, other than "it won't happen" and "it's impossible" I don't hear arguments against what I suggested (or what is actually impossible, has anyone ever asked ND's AD if he'd consider this idea?). We can sit here and say that ND won't join the Big 10 and get more money so they'll never join a conference, but in reality it's being stuck with 8 or 9 conference games that keeps them away. You can't tell me a chance to play a conference championship game in NYC isn't worth considering if a conference is offering you almost complete freedom.



A poster here politely asked you to bring these types of scenarios to the "dream conference" thread, and you refuted. I came in and agreed with the other poster and laid out the basics of why we would appreciate these types of posts in that thread. If you feel unhappy about the semantics and the word "impossible" then you have my apologies. A phrase like "highly unlikely" would suit just fine. And if "highly unlikely" it is, then it's appropriate for the dream thread, not this one.

Notre Dame has had a blank check, open invite in any and every capacity with the Big East since 1995. They have indeed made it clear that they have no interest in joining the Big East for football. There are references in this thread alone and 1000's of articles available using a simple search that will show you that is the case. You're not bringing some groundbreaking idea here: Notre Dame to the Big East. It's dismissed here because as mentioned above, the Big East has goen on the record publicly with all the concessions you mentioned already, including TV, as well as many, many more. Less not forget that notre Dame almost joined the Big ten in 2005, prior to that conference growing in finances. And less not forget that this past summer, Notre Dame was public about their consideration of joining the Big Ten...not the Big East.

As for Army and Navy, in proposing a 5 game schedule, you are saying they would need 1 more game then they already turned down...twice. Army and Navy have had formal invitations to join as full football members, partial football members, join football members, and have even been approached informally as all-sports members in 1991. They have made it clear that they are not interested in the Big East. There is no reason to speculate when we have been presented with facts. Things do change, and perhaps one day they will change their mind. But it is their choice and they've had 100% flexibility to join in whatever capacity they choose. So if Army and Navy in the Big east is something you want to see, great! But it's "dream conferences" material since we have all the facts already.

To answer your question about TCU, no conference cannot "uninvite a school". There are legal provisions included in conference membership. A school can opt not to join a conference after they've accepted, but are privy to a buyout. there are stability provisions in the contracts as well, usually, so if a school joined a sinking ship only to see all it's other members leave, they can opt out without financial penalty. If all things are equal, and a school opts to remain in it's original conference, there is still a buyout, but the precedent is that conferences will negotiate a lower buyout cost. Temple was not a member of the Big East...big difference. They were a football affiliate member with no voting rights. Conferences have free reign over membership issues when a school has no voting rights. When a school is a full member, it takes in casual terms, "probable cause" to vote out a school. Look no further than conferences like the A10 that have had Fordham in since 1995 and the school had ranked at or near the bottom of the conference in athletic budget, facilities, revenue and performance. But even the A10 couldn't vote out Fordham and had to wait and wait and wait.


As for a mention of conferences only counting conference games...that's great. But it's a completely separate issue to the overall concept of expansion. If nobody else said anything, then maybe they think it's an interesting idea. If you think it's a point worth more discussion, then create a thread about it. If people are interested, they'll contribute.















Response by SJSUfan:


Quinn wrote:
A poster here politely asked you to bring these types of scenarios to the "dream conference" thread, and you refuted. I came in and agreed with the other poster and laid out the basics of why we would appreciate these types of posts in that thread. If you feel unhappy about the semantics and the word "impossible" then you have my apologies. A phrase like "highly unlikely" would suit just fine. And if "highly unlikely" it is, then it's appropriate for the dream thread, not this one.


And what you said was inaccurate. No where do I blindly say BC and Maryland join the Big East right now. As I have pointed out before, it is something they would perhaps consider a ways down the road should this "dream" turn out lucrative. If adding 3 schools (all of which have been on the radar before) is a dream, then I'm not sure what the point of this thread is then. If adding three schools is a dream then there is no need for this thread as any expansion would be considered a dream.


Quinn wrote:
Notre Dame has had a blank check, open invite in any and every capacity with the Big East since 1995. They have indeed made it clear that they have no interest in joining the Big East for football. There are references in this thread alone and 1000's of articles available using a simple search that will show you that is the case. You're not bringing some groundbreaking idea here: Notre Dame to the Big East. It's dismissed here because as mentioned above, the Big East has goen on the record publicly with all the concessions you mentioned already, including TV, as well as many, many more. Less not forget that notre Dame almost joined the Big ten in 2005, prior to that conference growing in finances. And less not forget that this past summer, Notre Dame was public about their consideration of joining the Big Ten...not the Big East.


I have never even heard the idea of less conference games suggested by any conference. It's always 8 or 9 games, never 5. Please show me where the Big East or Big 10 offered that.

But what you just said is exactly why not one person should suggest it's impossible. Notre Dame is ON RECORD saying it may have to consider a conference because of the changing landscape. They joined the Big East in 1995. I'm not big on ND history in other sports, but were most of their teams independent before that as well? Perhaps in the last 15 years they are seeing the benefit of having a conference. This is exactly why saying it's impossible just makes no sense, they themselves have said they are considering it.


Quinn wrote:
As for Army and Navy, in proposing a 5 game schedule, you are saying they would need 1 more game then they already turned down...twice. Army and Navy have had formal invitations to join as full football members, partial football members, join football members, and have even been approached informally as all-sports members in 1991. They have made it clear that they are not interested in the Big East. There is no reason to speculate when we have been presented with facts. Things do change, and perhaps one day they will change their mind. But it is their choice and they've had 100% flexibility to join in whatever capacity they choose. So if Army and Navy in the Big east is something you want to see, great! But it's "dream conferences" material since we have all the facts already.


No, they play 5 conference games each. Two of the games they will play are games they already play. I've only suggested 3 Big East games, not 4 (and it's not some ridiculous idea of playing half a conference schedule, no way they'd accept that). Navy for example had 3 ACC teams this year, so instead, they get UConn, Pitt, and Cuse. Is that really so bad? We do know they won't join full time (someone posted a nice comment about how they couldn't compete) and they certainly won't join as a combined team. But most importantly, them coming was based on ND accepting. ND is the domino in this scenario not those two.


Quinn wrote:
To answer your question about TCU, no conference cannot "uninvite a school". There are legal provisions included in conference membership. A school can opt not to join a conference after they've accepted, but are privy to a buyout. there are stability provisions in the contracts as well, usually, so if a school joined a sinking ship only to see all it's other members leave, they can opt out without financial penalty. If all things are equal, and a school opts to remain in it's original conference, there is still a buyout, but the precedent is that conferences will negotiate a lower buyout cost. Temple was not a member of the Big East...big difference. They were a football affiliate member with no voting rights. Conferences have free reign over membership issues when a school has no voting rights. When a school is a full member, it takes in casual terms, "probable cause" to vote out a school. Look no further than conferences like the A10 that have had Fordham in since 1995 and the school had ranked at or near the bottom of the conference in athletic budget, facilities, revenue and performance. But even the A10 couldn't vote out Fordham and had to wait and wait and wait.


I hate to ask more as this is off topic but, I assume TCU does not have voting rights until they join full time. So since they are not a full member yet, it seems to me it would at least be possible. But as I said before should TCU stay, don't upgrade Nova and add a basketball school (or maybe nudge one out).


Quinn wrote:
As for a mention of conferences only counting conference games...that's great. But it's a completely separate issue to the overall concept of expansion. If nobody else said anything, then maybe they think it's an interesting idea. If you think it's a point worth more discussion, then create a thread about it. If people are interested, they'll contribute.


Well I agree it could be something worth talking about, but I think it very much could relate to Big East expansion. Look, I understand what's probably going to happen, but I'm trying to think of some way for the Big East to stabilize (and end the talks of a split, though that would be disappointing). I believe that none of the schools want to split and want to find a way to make this work (thus the concessions to the football schools).

If things continue this way, the football schools will split off or get picked off in the next wave of expansion, it's inevitable. The likely scenario doesn't solve anything unless everyone thinks the Big East will be satisfied becoming the old C-USA. And if the Big East's best idea was joint Army/Navy membership, then I doubt they've come up with anything worth considering for more than 5 minutes.

SJSUfan2010
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Thanks all!,
Quinn


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