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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 12:29 pm 
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This is a thread for discussing candidates for and feasibility off a Southern Ivy League all-sports conference, if anyone's inetersted.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 12:47 pm 
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I think this idea has been bounced around for a while, but it first clicked for me during some discussions on the ACC realignment and Dream Conference threads.

Does anybody think a Southern Ivy League (call it whatever you want) is a good idea?

It seems like the main reason some folks have suggested it is because of the divide between BB first high-academic schools and FB first schools. I think if a conference like this ever forms, that'll definitely be a cause. But I have some questions about the future of such a conference (yeah yeah, I'm playing devil's advocate--assuming I'm using that term correctly--a bit, but I think the questions are legit anyway):

1. Would it be a better situation for schools in the conference, since many would lose a cut of conference football money (assuming Vandy and the Tobacco Road schools are odds on favorites to be founding members)?

2. Who would the founding members be?

3. What sort of academic standards should be in place for potential members?

5. Would any schools in the region upgrade some of their sports to join the conference?

6. Is it possible there could be two conferences, or a 12 team conference with 2 divisions, one centering in the mid-atlantic DC area, and one more in the southeast?

7. Would you be interested in football in the league?

8. Should the league get a BCS/Playoff berth? If so, should there be certain minimum qualifcations they'd have to meet first?

9. Would the rivalries improve?

10. Would the faculty be happier?

11. Would recruiting take a nose-dive?

12. How awesome would the basketball be?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:00 pm 
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Here are my thoughts, biased as I am:
(Part I)

1. Assuming the Tobacco Road schools are the core of this conference, I think they'd benefit by bringing in like-minded institutions, even if some of them are from other conferences. Basketball would continue to run the show in the conference, and depending on who was brought in, the new conference would probably have an even profile in hoops than the former ACC. Maryland and NC State are excellent schools, but I'm not sure where they'd stand academically. I don't mean that as a knock, but if you add schools like Baylor, Rice, and Vandy to with Duke already in conference, the academic standards, those schools might collectively raise the bar to put themselves in an even better position.

2. If it all starts with a football/basketball split in the ACC, my guess is that FSU, Ga Tech, and Clemson might all leave, though not necessarily for the same destination. Clemson would probably work out a deal with the SEC. Maryland and NC State might face some tough choices, but I think they'd stay. Both are fine schools, but they'd probably slide into Clemson and FSU's former positions as the black sheep of the conference. Core members: Duke, Maryland, NC State, UNC, UVA, Wake Forest

Assuming the conference would be interested in filling it's membership back out, I think the candidates would be in this order:

The "Insider" (sort of)

1. South Carolina
A former ACC school, perfect geographic and instutional fit. Academically at least on par with NC State and Maryland. Hard feelings with the ACC may have subsided, particularly with Clemson moving to the SEC. Would bring in solid football and tremendous fan support.

"Barbarian Interlopers"

2. Vanderbilt
A perfect geographic, institutional and academic fit, apart from not being a tidewater/tobacco state. Basketball tradition a plus. Historic SEC affilaition would be the biggest hang-up.

3. Baylor
A perfect institutional and academic fit. Has much in common with Wake Forest. A bit of a stretch geographically, but no more so than in the Big 12. Baseball a plus.

4. Rice
A perfect institutional and academic fit. Regionally a bit of a stretch, but again, better than the WAC. Would give Duke a like-minded institution (though smaller) right at the peak academically. Connestions a plus. Athletics a minus.

5. Navy
A perfect geographic and academic fit. A different sort of school, but not ill-suited for the conference. Connections a plus. Athletics a minus.

6. Tulane
The biggest stretch. A good but not great academic and institutional fit, but competitive in this area with the middle schools in the conference. Geographically a decent fit, especially depending on realignment. Probably a solid football acquisition, probably competitive in basketball.

7. Kentucky
Not a great instutional fit, academics would be called into question. Basketball a HUGE plus. Decent geographic fit. Addition would make this a dream basketball conference. It's not like UK has had historically great rivals in-conference anyway. Could help fill out a western division.

3. Whatever is currently in place with the ACC will probably remain, though it might be bumped up later. This is one of the reasons why I don't think Kentucky would be a candidate.

5. (goofed on numbering) A few of the smaller schools in the region might try to move their sports up to IA to slide into the conference (i.e. Davidson, Washington & Lee) or schools that have had success at IAA might bootstrap their way in (i.e. Furman) but that seems unlikely.



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:01 pm 
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(Part II)

6. This is another possibility. Many basketball only schools from DC north, especially in the BE, might be a good fit, and that could change the orientation of the conference (ie. Georgetown, Army, Navy, Temple included in the conference).

7. I think football would be pretty interesting. Hell, if it's worth watching Army and Navy . . .

8. I think if the league was at 12 it ought to get a berth as long as teams meet minimum qualifications. If the champ isn't any good, they'll get hammered opening round.

9. I think many of the rivalries would be better, since Vandy and Duke would actually have a shot at success on the field. UNC, UVA, and UK (if they were admitted) could become perennial powers in-conference. I doubt the rivalries would be worse, though the old ACC teams would miss hating Clemson and FSU.

10. Faculty would be ecstatic.

11. Recruiting at certain schools might be a wash. It would improve at some struggling schools, but UVA and Maryland might drop off from the elite level they are heading to.

12. Basketball would be phenomenal. Kentucky vs. Duke or UNC almost every year in the conference title game. Probably three #1 seeds from the same conference.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:32 pm 
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Quote:
I think this idea has been bounced around for a while, but it first clicked for me during some discussions on the ACC realignment and Dream Conference threads.

Does anybody think a Southern Ivy League (call it whatever you want) is a good idea?

It seems like the main reason some folks have suggested it is because of the divide between BB first high-academic schools and FB first schools. I think if a
conference like this ever forms, that'll definitely be a cause. But I have some questions about the future of such a conference (yeah yeah, I'm playing devil's advocate--assuming I'm using that term correctly--a bit, but I think the questions are legit anyway):

1. Would it be a better situation for schools in the conference, since many would lose a cut of conference football money (assuming Vandy and the Tobacco Road schools are odds on favorites to be founding members)?

In the short run, no. In the long run, yes.

Quote:

2. Who would the founding members be?

I'm thinking along the lines of this bunch: UNC, Duke, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, and UVa.

Quote:

3. What sort of academic standards should be in place for potential members?

look for tougher academic standards than the current B12. High SAT scores would be a must. Athletes must have gpas of 3.7 or higher.

Quote:

5. Would any schools in the region upgrade some of their sports to join the conference?

I can maybe see VMI and the Citadel upgrading some of their sports. Navy also would love to join the Southern Ivy League (I'll use the name that's been floated around a few times, the Magnolia League, in reference to the "SIL" from now on). Even the old University of the South might contemplate a comeback to IA.

Quote:

6. Is it possible there could be two conferences, or a 12 team conference with 2 divisions, one centering in the mid-atlantic DC area, and one more in the southeast?

It's possible, although I would say it's not very probable (likely).

Quote:

7. Would you be interested in football in the league?
[/quote
Maybe, but probably not.
[quote]
8. Should the league get a BCS/Playoff berth? If so, should there be certain minimum qualifcations they'd have to meet first?

No

Quote:

9. Would the rivalries improve?

yes. More even playing field for all.

Quote:

10. Would the faculty be happier?

Definitely yes.

Quote:

11. Would recruiting take a nose-dive?

Probably.

Quote:

12. How awesome would the basketball be?

It would probably be decent.


Other schools I can see joining this conference are as follows:
Tulane, SMU, Rice, Tulsa, Kentucky, Cincy, and possibly Miami(Oh)
Although Maryland loves its football rivalry w/ UVa and its bball rivalry with UNC, I don't see the Terps really wanting to join this league. In fact, I can actually see them hooking up with FSU, GT, and Clemson. NC State would not like to be in that conference either, so put them also with FSU, GT, and Clemson.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 2:54 pm 
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DawgNDuckfan,

Magnolia is pretty cool, especially if the league is in the south. Once it creeps past Baltimore and Annapolis it wouldn't work as well.

Interesting that you suggested the university of the south. I plain forgot SMU. I'm not sure how Cincy and Uk would do academically. I'm sure Duke in particular would squawk about them.

I'm glad you said that about NC State and Maryland, that definitely troubled me. Not sure where they would go, but Maryland in particular would be a pertty cool fit in the BE I think.



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:19 pm 
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ACCNole2,

Interesting. I could see it comming if the FB schools bolted from the ACC. Of course, at that point if would probably keep the ACC name. Vandy definately belongs with the Tobacco Road schools, but it would take something really serious to make them leave the SEC. NC St would probably stay with Tobacco Rd. The NC legislature might even require it. I don't know MD that well, but if they can keep their coach, they would probably want to stay in a big time FB conference, which means leaving. SC is a FB school. They might leave the SEC for a conference where they can be champ, but ONLY if they think that it would get them a BCS or playoff berth.

The most likely scenerio, IMHO where Vandy joins would be if the new proposed rules on academic cause a major rift between the FB and BB schools. See my post on the dream thread.

I would like to see the conference under any name, but I would NOT watch their FB games. I like it because it would reduce the number of 1A teams demanding to be in a playoff. Therefore, I vote for the ACC and BE to both go that way. The FB schools can combine for 1 good conference, and you have an extra at large bid. Also, both conferences would need to add teams, and that could mean that there would be room in the BCS conferences for teams like Marshall or So. Miss etc that deserve it.

Obviously my answer to #8 is NO!. To questions 9, 10 and 11 my answer is: yes.

I like Tobacco RD, Vandy, Navy, and probably UVA. They need 1 or 2 more. Your suggestion seem ok to me, and I could also see Memphis. They might not really fit, but they think that they do! ;) ;D

FBfan


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 12:43 pm 
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Since academics are going to drive future post season requirements, the emphases should be on major sport interest for conference alignment. If the Oklahoma's do not improve graduations rates, they stay home for the holidays regardless of how good the football team performs.

Vanderbilt is not going to be forced or volunteer (tenn thing) to leave the SEC.

Most colleges are considered either football or basketball schools.

New 9 team eastern basketball conference that plays football:

NC, Duke, NC State, Wake Forest, Louisville, Connecticut, Temple, Rutgers, Cincinnatti

New 12 team eastern football league to compete with the SEC and plays good basketball

North: Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Marshall (Penn State's spot), Maryland

South: Virginia, Virginia Tech, Clemson, Ga Tech, Florida State, Miami Fla



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:23 pm 
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Quote:
Since academics are going to drive future post season requirements, the emphases should be on major sport interest for conference alignment. If the Oklahoma's do not improve graduations rates, they stay home for the holidays regardless of how good the football team performs.

Vanderbilt is not going to be forced or volunteer (tenn thing) to leave the SEC.

They might if they had a chance to be in the same conference as UNC and Duke. Vandy and Duke have a huge rivalry going on that is almost on parallel with Notre Dame-Southern Cal.

Quote:


New 9 team eastern basketball conference that plays football:

NC, Duke, NC State, Wake Forest, Louisville, Connecticut, Temple, Rutgers, Cincinnatti

No way, no how does Louisville join that group. Cincy might jump for it, but UL won't.

Quote:

New 12 team eastern football league to compete with the SEC and plays good basketball

North: Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Marshall (Penn State's spot), Maryland

South: Virginia, Virginia Tech, Clemson, Ga Tech, Florida State, Miami Fla

Boston College and the 'Cuse are pretty darn big on academics. I see them aligning themselves more with UNC than with this bunch. And the UVa-UNC rivalry, from what I hear around the 'net, is a lot like the Alabama-Ole Miss rivalry. It may not be one of the best around, but it has a lot of history to it.
[/quote]


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:42 pm 
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DawgNduckfan, Boston College and Syracuse have much more in common with Pitt, WVU, Va Tech, Miami than any of the North Carolina schools and that goes behond academics. Syracuse fans often have referred to a similiar 12 team scenerio proposed above.

Just don't see a benefit of Vandy leaving the SEC. Once academics standards are established in the NCAA, Vandy may be representing the SEC in the BCS unless Georgia, Florida, and others improve academic standards.

Tennessee is by far Vanderbilt's biggest rival.
Factor in women basketball and the SEC is a better fit. Even in football crazy SEC there are other sports that have established rivalries.

If Virginia want to go with the NC schools, no big loss. Replace Virginia with East Carolina. After all, Virginia Tech is real football school in that state.

Why do you think Louisville would not be interested in the basketball scenerio with the NC schools? That nine team proposal would get to keep the current ACC BCS bid and that is what Louisville fans want more than anything except maybe a national championship in basketball.

I sort of get the filling that some of you SEC fans are treatened by that 12 team proposal. Maybe because it would be a stonger conference?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:17 pm 
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Quote:
DawgNduckfan, Boston College and Syracuse have much more in common with Pitt, WVU, Va Tech, Miami than any of the North Carolina schools and that goes behond academics. Syracuse fans often have referred to a similiar 12 team scenerio proposed above.

Yeah, but would SU's president go along with that? SU is a northern school and I think they would be happier with other northern schools. See my Northeastern Conference post to see where I feel Syracuse would fit in the best.

Quote:

Just don't see a benefit of Vandy leaving the SEC. Once academics standards are established in the NCAA, Vandy may be representing the SEC in the BCS unless Georgia, Florida, and others improve academic standards.

UF has very rigorous academic standards. UGa's is very good, and Auburn's academics are actually top notch, despite Alabama fans constantly categorizing them as a farm school. They have one of the best engineering programs in the country (right on up there w/ VT, GT, and Purdue), and it's actually pretty darn hard to enter Auburn (I know, because I actually looked into attending there once, and I gave up because I couldn't handle all of Auburn's requirement's for admission. I could have gotten into Alabama easily, but I went to a D2 school because of smaller class size).

Quote:

Tennessee is by far Vanderbilt's biggest rival.
[/quote}
Did I say that Tennessee wasn't Vandy's biggest rival in sports? Nope. However, the Vandy-Duke rivalry is #2 on Vandy's list and Duke is Vandy's #1 rival in academics. UT doesn't even make the list there.
[quote]
Factor in women basketball and the SEC is a better fit. Even in football crazy SEC there are other sports that have established rivalries.

Umm, the SEC is not the best fit for Vandy, and the Vandy admin know it!! The Vandy admin have talked about the formation of a "Southern Ivy League" before, and felt the school would be a better fit for the "Southern Ivy League." You only see the $$$'s side of things. School administration looks at the bigger picture. I'd say, that although the SEC does have some good academic schools, the reputation of it being super football conference for big state schools still exists. The Vanderbilt adminstration knows this. However, when your only alternatives to the SEC are CUSA (maybe), the MAC, or the Sunbelt conference, you're going to stay in the SEC because the rest of those alternatives aren't too appetizing. The reason I haven't mentioned the ACC in that list is because to the best of my knowledge, Vandy isn't being considered for admission in the ACC. Now if a Southern Ivy League of UNC, UVa, Duke, etc formed, I think that the Vanderbilt administration might be willing to jump at that.

Quote:

If Virginia want to go with the NC schools, no big loss. Replace Virginia with East Carolina. After all, Virginia Tech is real football school in that state.

one of the few points where we actually agree.

Quote:

Why do you think Louisville would not be interested in the basketball scenerio with the NC schools? That nine team proposal would get to keep the current ACC BCS bid and that is what Louisville fans want more than anything except maybe a national championship in basketball.

Louisville is one of the few schools that you can't put into an entirely football or an entirely basketball category. UL does have a great hoops history, but it also has a great football history as well. UL would give almost anything to be in the same conference as Virginia Tech or Tennessee. Don't ask me why.

Quote:

I sort of get the filling that some of you SEC fans are treatened by that 12 team proposal. Maybe because it would be a stonger conference?

It's a north/south thing. Southern football fans like being around other southern football fans. That much I know. I always thought you Yankee sports fans hung out together as well.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:06 pm 
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DawgnDuckFan, good debat stuff. I am fan of all college football. It doesn't matter if the team is in the north, south, west, major, mid major, even div 2 and 3. As a fan of the Big East and Pac 10, do not consider fans as northern or southern. Only when the Big East beats up on an SEC team does this become an issue.

You "duck"ed my question. The 12 team eastern conference listed above would actually be a stronger than the SEC if it ever became a reality. Agree or Disagree!


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:57 am 
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Lash,
I would say your 12 team eastern FB would be on par with the SEC or Big 12, but not better. The question then becomes: "How do you upgrade the PAC 10 to that standard?". Adding ND to the Big 10 would do the trick for them, but the PAC 10 needs 2 good teams, 1 of which needs to be a top 10 team. Of course you could make Spurrier and Stoops offers they cannot refuse at a couple of the better PAC 10 schools. ;)

I better keep my mouth shut about that last idea. There has been a call to hire more minority head coaches. While I support that idea up to a point, the best minority assistant coach that I know of is the DC at my favorite school, and frankly, I want to keep him! ;D

FB


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 11:09 am 
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Lash,

I'm leaning more toward FBfan on the Vandy issue. There's no doubt they'd be reluctant to leave the SEC, and they'd rather change the rules in the SEC than continue to take a pounding (admittedly some of this is their own fault) every year. If joining the ACC was a real option, I have no doubt they'd consider it, if only to get some discussion going. The SEC would probably be torn, since a football heavy conference might want to keep a school that gives it some academic credibility. Then again, money has driven expansion and realignment, and Vandy may be about to burn some bridges. The rivalry with UT on the field, though historic, isn't even close to competitive, and now UT is the primary target of this new push for academic standards. In the long wrong that might affect the climate in the legislature, since the Tennessee legislature might be one of the powers that would keep Vandy from heading elsewhere. I'm still somewhate baffled by these academic standards. I'm not sure how FSU keeps up with them in the ACC so maybe someone can elaborate . . . ? Anyway, if the ACC's standards are truly higher when it comes to fb, then a genuine invite from the ACC, especially if it still has a BCS spot for its champ, would be seriously entertained by Vandy IMO. I'm not saying they'd actually go, but they'd publicly entertain it, using it for leverage in the SEC if nothing else. If the offer came from a Magnolia League, I think they'd be just as interested, unless the conference was totally cut out of the bowl/playoff system.

Btw, that 12 team conference would be a bit better in coaching and at the top than the SEC, but probably not as deep. Similar to comparing the Big 12 to the SEC. It'd be interesting to see what would happen over time. The new conference might really pull recruits to the northeast, and keep 99% of the native talent there.

DawgNDuck,

Good points on academics, especially re: Auburn, but when it comes to the football players, MUCH is forgiven. Not a knock on the schools, just a knock on accomodations made to the football players (or at least claims to apply standards fairl to the payers). Hey, if Bo Jackson graduated . . .(didn't he graduate . . .?).

Great points about Vandy going to the ACC/Magnolia. I think most of the Vandy fans would be much happier than they realize in a short period of time. Their basktball recruiting would make a huge jump up, and the rivalry with Duke would be huge. That being said, there would stillbe major obstacles. But once IN the ACC/Magnolia, they'd be a near pefect fit in s short time, especially if the conf didn;t take a nosedive in football.

Re: Va Tech

The state of Virginia hasn't seen anything like what's coming the next few years. UVA is gonna make some major waves and they are poised to become a MAJOR power IMO. Va Tech is still very solid and Vick's little bro' is about to come into his own. The state of Virginia may be playing some of the best football in the country the next few years. Va Tech may be the football school, but I think UVA maybe even better, at least for the next few years. Al Groh is building a super-power. People may be distracted by Maryland, but watch out for UVA. He's playing his youngsters early, recruiting like a monster, and the recruiting will only improve. Last year's schedule was a tremendous learning experience for them. As an FSU fan, I am not looking forward to playing them in Charlottesville next year.

UVA on the way to top 10 status (at least i think so), Va Tech grooming Vick II, and Fridge rolling at Maryland. Not a bad time to be a college football fan in the DC area huh? I wish we had Tech in the ACC.



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 12:00 pm 
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FBfan, maybe the Pac 10 will have to set things in motion to get the BCS conferences aligned to support a national college playoff.

The Arizona schools may support expansion with the Utah schools, however, there would be a big clash of culture from the California and Oregon schools. Sooo--

While I favor 10 member conferences, it is an easier task to get the BCS conferences to 12 for balance and promote a playoff.

The Pac 10 could expand and take Texas and Colorado from the Big 12. The Big 12 might be good, however, they don't have the fan base and tradition of the Pac 10.

This will cause an western to eastern sharkup movement. Texas A&M will look to the SEC for membership and replace Vanderbilt. This move will help the SEC to keep on par with an expanded Pac 10.

Since the Big 12 is loosely tied together for financial reasons, this conference is more prone to cherry picking of all the BCS conferences. Only Texas and Oklahoma have any real ties from the old SWC and Big 8 members.

The Big 10 will finally get to take Missouri as its 12 member. Missouri is a much better fit for the Big 10. Big land in grant state school. One of the current best OOC rivalries is Missouri and Illinois.

The Big 12 would have to replace Texas, Texas A&M, Colorado, and Missouri. For argument sake, lets take Utah, BYU, Colorado State, TCU.

Now comes the hard part - how and which teams to get the Big East and ACC to 12 teams.

Lets start with the ACC. Vanderbilt would be available. With all this shuffle the ACC may finally get Miami and Virginia Tech to consider joining.

With Miami out of the Big East in this scenerio, Notre Dame would not be afraid to join the conference for football.

The Big East would need four additonal teams. Louisville and Cincinnati would be a given and would link Notre Dame geographically to the east. Villanova would upgrade and Army and Navy would join to bring the confernce to 12. Basketball and all other sports would remain at 14 keeping Providence, St John's, Georgetown, and Seton Hall.

Just one type of scenerio if the Pac 10 desided to expand. Does anyone really want the Pac 10 to expand when these type of results could play out?



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