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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 12:29 pm 
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lash,

I'm in agreement there, Pac 10 expansion has zero positives, unless a team in the MWC or WAC can bootstrap itself up to be a positive addition to the conference. I think CSU and Air Force are non-BCS wild cards in the region between the Big 12 and the Pac 10. Both would be interesting additions and both have solid football programs. Not perfect fits, but not necessarily watering down either conference. The Pac 10 would only be interested in them if they could bring in Colorado, so I doubt that will happen unless it's absolutely necessary. They're a better regional fit in the Big 12, for sure. Losing both would kill the MWC, but the WAC could reform and still be a decent league, though bottom rung at that point.

Ulimately I agree, everyone moving to 10 is the easiest solution if uniformity is a must, though that would spell the end of the mid majors as we know them, which isn't a bad thing, since the focus would be more regional.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:21 pm 
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AccNole2, agreed. Maybe it not so much an issue that all conferences get to 12 as the importance of uniformity in the post season. That is why college basketball post season is so much better than football at the present time. All major conferences have a tournament and get placed into a playof schenerio.

It just seems so practical to allow a conference football championship game with ten members splitting into two divisions. All major conferences would have an extra made for TV football championship game and help to be determine the BCS matchup games.

The Pac 10, BE, and ACC do not want or have any major benefit expanding to 12 would have some consistency with the SEC and Big 12. Lets face it, the 12 team conferences are making lots of money and it has a great deal to do with the championship football game.

I look at the BCS as a super conference. Indiviual confernces continue to control the TV contracts and schedules. Behond that, the 6 conferences really act as one super conference.

Big 12 and SEC remain at 12.

Big 10 has already crossed the line and has to go to 12. Do they wait for Notre Dame or take a mid major. Cincinnatti would be a great fit for the Big 10. If Indiana and Illinois can have two Big 10 teams, surely Ohio could support two Big 10 teams. Ohio State and Cincinnatti already are great rivals.

Big East could add Navy and Notre Dame and easily bring the conference to 10. Splitting into two five team divisions could seperate the big boys of Miami and Notre Dame and avoid regular season matchup every year.

That leaves the ACC and Louisville is just waiting for a major conference opening.

BCS contract could expand to include 6 conference championship games and normal BCS bowl scenerios.



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:18 pm 
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Lash,
You made my point about PAC10 expansion better than I did. Adding to the Big 10 is easy, but not to the PAC10. The part about hiring some better coaches was smack, but true. I cannot talk much after what happen to the SEC this year, but the SEC was better to to start with. The PAC10 is ok at 10, but needs to get some ooc BCS wins.

Back on subject, there are not enough "Ivy" type schools in the west to have a western Ivy and a PAC 10.
Half of the PAC10 might qualify, but what happens to the PAC 10 then? ??? In the east, you have plenty of teams to chose from. It is like the difference between a big city H.S. system and a rural system. If you county has less than 10k people, you probably only have 1 choice.

FBfan


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2003 4:01 pm 
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DawgnDuckFan, good debat stuff. I am fan of all college football. It doesn't matter if the team is in the north, south, west, major, mid major, even div 2 and 3. As a fan of the Big East and Pac 10, do not consider fans as northern or southern. Only when the Big East beats up on an SEC team does this become an issue.

You "duck"ed my question. The 12 team eastern conference listed above would actually be a stronger than the SEC if it ever became a reality. Agree or Disagree!

I don't know if your eastern conference would be stronger than the SEC if it ever came to be reality (I kinda hope it doesn't, because I want to see FSU and/or Miami in the SEC someday),but it would definitely be equivalent to the SEC in strength.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 11:21 am 
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lash,

I definitely like your expansion sugestions, closing out the Big 10 as the least 12 team conference and moving the rest to 10. If the other conferences rolled the dice to go to 12, tough you know what for them if a title game is allowed for 10 team conferences. I think you'd see some fireworks in the Big 12 and SEC for sure, leading to some teams being booted out (fair or not).

Interesting options for the Big 10. Cincinnati wouldn't be too bad a fit. I think their hoops coach ispretty crooked, but then so was the guy (Fisher?) who coached the fab 5 at Michigan. I think Pitt would bring more to the table overall, but some of you guys have made some great points for why moving to the Big 10 would be a bad move for Pitt. I still think they are the more likely choice (over a non-BCS team). Missouri is the other team I could see leaving, since they're continually on the brink of success in the Big 12, but they have a history of being screwed by officials in the conference (that may be mor ein the old Big 8 though). Iowa St. is probably a distant (but not unlikely third). They're actually winning now, so their incentive to leave, such as it was, is pretty much gone.

Notre Dame and Navy are a perfect 2 team fit for the BE. I'll be really disappointed if that doesn't happen. Like you (if I caught your meaning) I'd rather see ND and Miami in separate divisions, maybe meeting on a rotating basis only during the regular season. That way you'd have a massive title game nearly every season. If ND/Miami was a rematch, it'd be an anti-climax.

Louisville is an interesting fit in the ACC. Their might be complaints about academics, that's the standard reaction from Coach K. I'd love to see them in with FSU though. Being in the ACC might help bump that program back into the top 10 again. Anyway, I doubt the old school teams would welcome them. Turtlepower has floated South Carolina as the only team the major voting block in the ACC would accept if expansion was required. I'm not sure what BCS teams would actually come if invited. Of the non-BCS teams, I think Louisville is the only solid candidate, though to be honest the BE might be more interested in them than the ACC.

DawgNDuck,

I used to want both teams in the SEC too, but now Miami would seem out of place to me. I definitely don't want FSU in the SEC until they right the ship (bring in Amato before it's too late!). Right now we'd get pounded. The only thing keeping the SEC down right now is the loss of Spurrier (like Osborne, he left when he knew he had a rough season ahead and left his sucessor lean pickings) and Fulmer's pitiful coaching staff. Tupperville has turned the corner at Auburn, and Rhicht has already arrived at UGA. If not for an injured QB, Saban had an outside shot at the title game at LSU. If Tennessee and/or UF can get things back on track, the SEC will be better than ever.

I'd rather see Miami in the BE with (ideally) PSU and ND. That's guarantee a better title game than any other conference every season. As great a success as the SEC title games have been, it's big time hit or miss with the actual match-ups. Big 12 title game is always entertaining it seems, but not often as important. Even during an off year, a title match up with the 'canes against PSU or ND would be epic. Sorry for the Jim Rome term.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 10:23 am 
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ACCNole,

I seriously doubt that South Carolina would get an invitation to rejoin the ACC. They left back in the 70's under bad terms..and those feelings are still strong on both sides. I also feel that Louisville, although a solid athletic program, does not come even close to the ACC academic standards. And although most people assume that the Tabbaky Rd schools would only want to expand to add solid basketball...I say the opposite is true. The Tabbaky Rd schools would oppose adding any program that would be a threat to their lock on year in year out basketball suprememcy. Not to mention the fact that any additions would limit the influence the four schools have on the ACC. As long as John Swofford wears Tarhole underoos...the ACC isn't going to expand.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 11:24 am 
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catdaddy,

Great point. I guess you're right, even a quality academic school with great hoops, or just an average school with great hoops, would be a threat to success in-conference. If even a school like Vandy wouldn't be welcome, then expansion will not happen. South Carolina might be the least distasteful addition to the conference for most of the schools (Clemson being the biggest exception . . . but since when is the ACC nice to you guys anyway?), but they'd still threaten the balance of power.

I just wonder what the conference will do when things start changing around them? And I wonder whether the stubborness of the core schools (I do understand why they feel that way, but I wouldn't exactly call them flexible) might lead to a break up along football lines? If the BE does decide to expand and if going to 12 looks like a real option, FSU is gonna look long and hard at permanently losing a chance to be in the same conference as Miami. If ND is there to sweeten the deal, and possibly Penn State, there's gonna be a showdown if there are any slots left open. I just wonder who (if anyone) would leave with us. Seems like Maryland is an increasingly good candidate. The BE would be a good league for them in hoops, it'd be just as good a geographic fit, and the football program would stay healthy and happy. We'll just have to wait and see on that.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 11:26 am 
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PS, if Duke and UNC both fall to merely top 20 programs, it'll be interesting to see whether UVA and Maryland will be more independent-minded re: conference expansion. It may be that over the next few years, UVA, Maryland, and Wake will better on the field and on the court than either UNC or Duke.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 8:08 pm 
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ACCNole2, either the ACC will most likly add 3 teams or the Big East will add four teams to reach 12. Really do not see Notre Dame or Penn State in the mix due to Big 10 considerations and independent status or a combination of ACC/BE teams (ie Big 8 expansion).

Basketball may have some influence on future expansion. Good point on Duke and NC. The same holds true for the BE for Georgetown and St Johns.

My preference would be for the Big East to expand with the current 8 football teams and add four willing ACC teams.


West: Syracuse, Pitt, WV, Rutgers, Maryland, Florida St

East: BC, Conn, Ga Tech, Va Tech, Clemson, Miami

I am not adding this to the dream conference thread because this alignment has some possibilities.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 8:10 pm 
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Hard to say...but historically UVA and Maryland have fallen right in with the Tabbaky Rd schools in regards to conference matters. It used to be Clemson and GT against the world...now FSU joins us in pissing in the wind.

Honestly, I feel that the majority of Clemson fans would be all for joining the Big East if they expanded for football....but the Clemson Administration would probably balk due to the fact we make so much money from the ACC. Any move would have to bring a lot more money, due to increased costs for travel to play conference games.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 11:47 am 
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The ACC makes a lot money at the present time due to TV contract for basketball. This is only a point in time and could change tomorrow or when contracts are renewed.

Conferences that make more money than the ACC (SEC and Big 12) rely on more that one cash cow.

Football TV revenue is just starting to scratch the surface and will eventually make more money than the basketball side of sports.

If the Big East football schools (which play very good basketball) expanded with some very good ACC football schools, the revenue would soon pass up the current ACC revenue sharing.

The SEC was one of the lowest revenue sharing of all the current 6 BCS conferences until they expanded to 12 teams. After expansion they are number one in revenue (90 million plus last year) and will only make more money as college football takes over as the big cash cow of college sports.

Basketball will continue to make money and is important to have good teams in both sports. Currently the ACC leans very heavy to basketball. The same holds true for the Big East. Basketball continues to be the Big East cash cow, however, when that changes, the Big East will most likly make a move to expand for football.

Money talks or why else would we have the Big 12.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 11:08 am 
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Here are my thoughts, biased as I am:
(Part I)


The "Insider" (sort of)

1. South Carolina
A former ACC school, perfect geographic and instutional fit. Academically at least on par with NC State and Maryland. Hard feelings with the ACC may have subsided, particularly with Clemson moving to the SEC. Would bring in solid football and tremendous fan support.

"Barbarian Interlopers"

2. Vanderbilt
A perfect geographic, institutional and academic fit, apart from not being a tidewater/tobacco state. Basketball tradition a plus. Historic SEC affilaition would be the biggest hang-up.

3. Baylor
A perfect institutional and academic fit. Has much in common with Wake Forest. A bit of a stretch geographically, but no more so than in the Big 12. Baseball a plus.

4. Rice
A perfect institutional and academic fit. Regionally a bit of a stretch, but again, better than the WAC. Would give Duke a like-minded institution (though smaller) right at the peak academically. Connestions a plus. Athletics a minus.

5. Navy
A perfect geographic and academic fit. A different sort of school, but not ill-suited for the conference. Connections a plus. Athletics a minus.

6. Tulane
The biggest stretch. A good but not great academic and institutional fit, but competitive in this area with the middle schools in the conference. Geographically a decent fit, especially depending on realignment. Probably a solid football acquisition, probably competitive in basketball.




Certainly Tulane isn't in the academic class of rice and vandy; of course, baylor isn't in the academic class of tulane (nor are they in the athletic class). The stretch is really baylor - I would suggest smu, tcu and tulsa as at least equally viable academic candidates to baylor (and in the case of at least tcu, superior athletically as well).


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 12:04 pm 
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Really? I thought Baylor was on the level of Wake, but that was just a guess.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 2:29 pm 
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Southern Ivy -West (Catcus division)
SMU, TCU, Baylor, Tulane, Memphis, Vandy

East (Tobacco RD division)
UNC, NC St, WF,Duke, Navy, SC

Vandy gets in a academic conference. :) USC finally gets their conference championship. ;)

FBfan


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 4:16 pm 
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Update. I was not being fair to SC. Their stadium is too bing and frankly, their team is now playing too good for the Ivy. They would stay in the SEC.

Vandy is more in alignment with the East division.

Rice would probably like to get back with its former SWC friends.

Therefore:
East: Duke,NC, NC St,Vandy,WF, UVa or Navy
West: Baylor,Rice,SMU,TCU,Tulane, Houston or Memphis

Note: You might go with Houston over Memphis because of the SWC connection. You could almost bring back the SWC by keeping both and adding So. Miss. This last would assume that the abve teams were the survivors of the 2005 rule changes. All kinds of changes could occur if a dozen or so teams drop to 1AA.


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