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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:12 am 
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TCU's too good for that bunch, at least right now. They're playing well enough to be in the Big 12.

Does anyone know where Baylor rates academically? It's not like academic conferences are identical top to bottom. NC State, on the whole, is nowhere close to Duke academically (though they're great in certain areas). Wake is a very solid lib arts school, but again, they're not Duke. UNC is brutal to get into out of state, and they are a great state school . . . but they're STILL a state school. When it comes to pure academics, UVA is probably a notch above UNC. My point about the "Magnolia" league is, it needs to be schools that emphasize academics first. Every conference has it's black sheep. I don't have any first hand knowledge of Baylor, but if they are fairly close to Wake in academics, they could fit in just fine. I've never been sure about Tulane. I'm sure Rice owuld like to be in with the old SWC crowd if possible, but if the SWC is not gonna reform, they'd be better of in a conference of similarly situated schools.

Is SMU, academically, a solid fit? Does anyone know? They might be another school that's similar to Wake. If so, put them in the "Cactus" (there has to be a a snootier western plant) division too.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:07 am 
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ACCNole2,
Baylor, SMU and TCU are church schools. WF's founders intended WF to be be. While that does not mean that they are on the same academic level, they should get along with each other pretty well. I think Rice is a private school, and I know Vandy is.

Personally, what I wanted was a conference that was 1A FB that would NOT be screaming for inclusion in the BCS. Imagine how things would be with a Southern Ivy/Magnolia Conference(SIC), a 1AAA conference of NE BB schools (see the 1AAA thread) and a combined conference of the best ACC and BE FB schools. Creating an 8 team playoff would be easy. Five conference champs, 3 at large with the SIC, MWC, and CUSA getting "consideration." Or the best of MWC and CUSA in a conference getting the 6th conference champ spot.

It will not happen, :'( but I would LOVE it if it did! :)

FBfan


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 10:57 am 
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FBfan,

How would you weight (not necessarily the numbers, but what factors would you consider) for your SIC? Have you posted that somewhere?

I definitely like your idea, but you're a proponent of the 8 team field right? That'd definitely be better than 4 or 2, but I still prefer 16.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 2:17 pm 
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ACCNole2,

My origional idea for SIC was basically the ACC without the "serious" FB schools (ie FSU, Clemson, GT and maybe MD now). These schools are all pretty good academicly, but they tend to be BB first, fb third. (The gap is too large to to have a second!) Vandy, thinks they belong with this group, but (IMHO) wants to remake the SEC into the ACC (or Tobbacco Rd) west instead of changing conferences. If you have been established long enough to have 20k average fb attendance, but have not had a top 20 FB team in over 30 yrs: then you qualify. If your team has had some sweet 16 BB teams in those years, they are solid!

Note: I will NOT! say that all of these schools are great academically. BUT, IMHO, they all pretend to be. ;)

Also note: One or two SIC type conferences would free up enough spots in the BCS conferences to include any mid majors who really deserved a shot at a playoff.

FBfan


Last edited by fbfan on Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:55 pm 
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Maybe I'm not getting it. The Ivy League consists of high scholastic PRIVATE schools. There are no state schools in the lot.

There must be eight to form a new conference effective in 2004. In the vast expanse of "southern" Ivy League type schools, I only see nine playing Division 1-A. Those would be Duke, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, Tulane, Rice, Baylor, SMU, TCU and Tulsa. All are either private or church-related with academic standards above that of a state school. A state school cannot be as selective and could never match the above schools academically unless the private schools choose to relax their standards.

Note that Duke, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt and Baylor are already BCS schools. Most of the other private schools are pretty far away...Southern Cal, Stanford, Northwestern, Miami, Notre Dame and Boston College to form a league and many of them do very well competing with state institutions. It's hare for me to see such a league ever getting off the ground.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 12:12 pm 
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JFin,
Your 9 teams look good to me. :) My scenerio was for the serious FB in the ACC to bolt, and the non BCS schools that you mentioned to to join. Also, while Navy IS a government school, they are not a state school in the same sense that the others are. Navy's academics are second to NONE! Their FB is Tobacco Rd.

If you change to name to Big Ivy (Big meaning 1A), then adding Army, Navy and some of the private BE schools like BC would work.

Big Ivy

Army,BC,Duke,Navy,Rutgers (plays like a private college), Temple,Vandy,WF and maybe ND.

While ND fits academically, they do not fit FB.
Also, Baylor,Rice,SMU,TCU,Tulane,Tulsa and AF could make either a western division, or add Stanford for a SW Ivy Conference. They would chose a different name. How about Southwestern Academic Conference?
In that vein, the eastern schools could become the Atlantic Academic Conference (AAC), which is a take off on ACC, but which inadvertently points to their FB strength. ;) ;)

FBfan


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:24 am 
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One more try.

ND probably likes its deal with NBC more than NBC does. I think NBC wanted more big time independant schools. So, here is my National Bigtime Conference (NBC ;) ) ND, NW, Louiseville, Cincinnatti, Vandy,Duke,WF,Memphis. All are private schools or large normal schools, and most have great BB. You could also add Army and Navy to this list.

FBfan


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:56 pm 
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The CUSA West was going to be that conference with TCU, SMU, Rice, Tulsa and Tulane in the same division with UH. But TCU left.

SMU is similar to Vanderbilt, but probably just a little below in academic reputation. Baylor is solid, but not exclusive, although they are trying to get there. In academic reputation they are probably about the middle of the Big 12. They would be behind the other 3 Texas privates, but are similar enough (except, of course, that they ARE a member of a BCS conference).


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:05 am 
For the sake of playing along:

If this were to happen then I assume that other schools not currently at the 1-A level could fill the gaps.

Kudzu Conference
Lehigh (PA)
Johns Hopkins (MD)
George Washington (DC)
William and Mary (VA)
Duke (NC)
Wake Forest (NC)
Vanderbilt (TN)
Emory University (GA)

Cilantro Conference
Tulane (LA)
Rice (TX)
SMU (TX)
Baylor (TX)
TCU (TX)
Tulsa (OK)

There really are not as many quality targets within reach of these southwestern schools to round out a conference here. The closest would be

Washington University (MO)
St. Louis (MO)

After that not only do you get further and further away but we've also dropped off the academic radar, at least in terms of true Ivy League-style counterparts.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:39 pm 
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I figure you tolerate someone at a little lower level to fill in the gaps.
West
TCU
SMU
Baylor
Rice
Tulsa
Tulane
East
Duke
Wake Forest
Vanderbilt
Furman
Emory from Div. III
and perhaps
Samford

When Rice evaluated fb, they considered staying IA, dropping fb or going to Division III. Their option in Division III was the University Athletic Association with the schools you mentioned:
Washington (Mo.)
Case Western (OH)
Carnegie Mellon (PA)
Chicago (IL)
Rochester (NY)

There really aren't any good alternatives in conferences w/o IA fb either for many of these schools. Outside the NE there are only the West Coast, Missouri Valley, Horizon and Colonial, all of which are a long way from Texas and Louisiana.



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:54 pm 
First of all, any such talk of a "Magnolia League" is pure speculation right now. It would take some drastic changes in the collegiate athletic landscape (esp. in football) for such a shift to ever occur. If it does, however, I assure you that schools like Cincinnati, UK, and South Carolina will not be part of the discussion. It will be the big Div. 1 southern private schools and the public schools with solid academic reputations like UVA, UNC, and maybe Ga. Tech. Georgia is getting better in terms of its academic reputation (the school, that is, I dont know about its athletes), but I would still see them aligning themselves with the likes of Tennessee, Florida, and Auburn if changes were to happen. Here's how I see the league playing out:

Eastern Division
Virginia
Duke
UNC
Wake Forest
Georgia Tech
Vanderbilt

Western Division
Rice
Tulane
SMU
Baylor
TCU
Tulsa

It's still hard to think of Duke, UNC, and Virginia being aligned with the likes of Tulsa, SMU, and Baylor. Like I said, it would take a seismic shift in the NCAA landscape for this to occur.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:57 pm 
Perhaps more plausible would be a smaller league consisting of:

UVA
UNC
Duke
Wake
Ga. Tech
Vanderbilt
Tulane
SMU
Rice

It'd be like the old ACC with the 9-team format...


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:36 pm 
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I thought it would be fun to see what the ripple effect would be on the rest of I-A based on JHG's proposal.
First things first, I don't think Georgia Tech would go Southern Ivy, but Navy might:
Magnolia League
east
Navy
Virginia
Duke
North Carolina
Wake Forest
Vanderbilt
west
Rice
Tulane
SMU
Baylor
TCU
Tulsa

Now to fill-in the gaps for those who lost schools....

The new ACC would re-build from the Big East:
ACC
east
Boston College
Connecticut*
Maryland
North Carolina St.
Clemson
Miami
west
Syracuse*
Louisville*
Cincinnati*
Virginia Tech
Georgia Tech
Florida State

Would the SEC consider luring an ACC school or go elsewhere? NC State would be a nice departure...
SEC
east
Kentucky
Tennesee
South Carolina
Georgia
Auburn
Florida
west
Alabama
Memphis*
Ole Miss
Miss State
LSU
Arkansas

Big 10 Strikes while there's an opportunity to expand.
Big 10
eastern
Penn State
Pittsburgh*
Ohio State
Michigan
Michigan State
Purdue
western
Indiana
Northwestern
Illinois
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Iowa

Big possiblities with the Big 12 with Baylor gone.
Another "easy win" team or attack the SEC West?
Big 12
north
Iowa State
Missouri
Nebraska
Kansas
Kansas State
Colorado
south
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Texas
Texas A&M
Texas Tech
Texas-El Paso*

It's possible that this conference actually improves. At least geographically.
Conf-USA
eastern
Rutgers*
Temple*
Marshall
East Carolina
Central Florida
South Florida*
western
Troy*
UAB
Southern Miss
Louisiana Tech*
Arkansas State*
North Texas*

The 5 remaining schools of the defunct Sun-Belt (ULL, ULM, MTSU, FAU, FIU) plot their revenge on the new Magnolia League with a series of pranks including panty raids, itching jock straps, and competing for the Greek Council of College Athletics all in an attempt to get back in a Conference.


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