Agreed that Notre Dame has mucked things up - as was said on this board repeatedly at the time. However, the article does an excellent job of explaining the complexities of what influenced the final outcome - including lawsuits first & foremost. Notre Dame's role would appear to be just one of a number of factors thqat in the end led the member institutions to stay together. Notre Dame wasn't even a participant in the meetings in which the football schools chartered their course, so their role - while important - had its limits.

Kevin White Addresses BIG EAST Conference Changes
Director of Athletics says Notre Dame will stay the course as the realignment process moves forward.
http://und.ocsn.com/genrel/110403aab.html

What a joke the Irish are. They have gotten to the point that they only affect the rest of college football becauise of their t.v. contract and BCS connection.

Despite those two factors, I'd like to remind Notre Dame that, for example:

• Notre Dame losing to Florida State 38-0 because the Irish "always take the high road, always schedule tough, geographically diverse schools, always goes for the marquis match-ups"

-and-

• Wake Forest losing to Florida State 38-0 because they are scheduled to play by the ACC

still add up to virtually the same thing:

just another lousy team or two being blown out by Florida State

Whoa Nellie, a SouthBendTribune columnist is now actually suggesting NotreDame join the BigEast for football.

Where was he five months ago?

http://www.southbendtribune.com/stories/2003/11/06/sports.20031106-sbt-MARS-B1-Why_not.sto

???

Jman, he must be reading our posts! ;D We've been saying the same thing here for the past 6 months. :)

Oh, what might have been . . . Had Notre Dame stepped in when the Big East needed them, BC certainly would still be in the fold. Who knows? Maybe even Miami could have been saved. A Big East with BC & possibly Miami would be a lot more attractive to Notre Dame than the remnants they are left with. Add Temple & Navy & they have access to all of the major Northeast markets that they value. And they in turn look a lot less attractive as anyone's saviour after the season they are mired in - only reinforcing the perception of a program in decline.

Some very good analytical articles to post this morning, the first a good analysis of why NotreDame has much greater hurdles to leap to recover the old days:

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/071sd1.htm

The second a recommended solution:

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/7198551.htm
8-)

Thanks for the links Javaman. Both are excellent articles.

In the second article which advocates for a Notre Dame move to a conference (Big Ten), one factor that the author fails to include is Notre Dame's failure to get BCS bids even in good years. Although BCS special treatment of Notre Dame has been decried from many quarters, the fact is that this sweetheart deal isn't as "sweet" as it reads on paper. Notre Dame met the BCS criteria in both 1998 & 2002 but were passed over in favor of others - Iowa in the Big Ten power play most recently. Being unable to compete for an automatic bid & lacking the influence of a power conference for an at-large spot (see Iowa) have both been to Notre Dame's detriment.

OK...Which one of you guys is Jason Kelly? ;D

FriarFan, this definitely goes on your "You heard it here first" board! ;D

The basketball analysis was forwarded by somebody in this group about 2-3 months ago, and this guy has picked this up. Personally, due to the hubris of Notre Dame, I kind of like the status quo. They get their tails kicked regularly. It's good to see. ;)
8-)

I think it is funny how everyone used to say geography was the major reason that Notre Dame should join the Big Ten and not the Big East or ACC. The Big East has changed their geography quite a bit now with their new additions. Depaul, Marquette,Louisville and UC will bring them quite a few shorter trips now. I know that part of the reason that they added them had to be Notre Dame, because there other schools that are closer that are also good BBall only schools.

That's an interesting thought arpmany, and let me just explore it a bit more. We now know that NotreDame was active behind the scenes in keeping the BE together. It is very logical that, like all the other schools, they would have had input on choosing replacement members, and it also follows that the other schools, especially the basketball schools, needing NotreDame's support, would have been accomodating and perhaps even deferential to NotreDame's preferences and wishes.

Are you hinting at the possibilty that by this reorientation NotreDame not only makes its basketball life easier, but really does have a long-range conference plan in mind, rather than just a convenient temporary solution while it figures out where the college football world and BCS is headed?

With its proud football tradition, could NotreDame really be thinking about regular games with Cinci, Louisville, UCF, and the like? I want to be open to this possibility, but even if you substitute the weak Big10 schools Illinois, Northwestern, and Indiana, wouldn't the latter be much more attractive in the long run? State flagship and prestige private vs commuter, directional, and weak academics?

I don't want to put anything past the "strategic thinkers" at NotreDame, but I suspect NotreDame was just creating a short-range solution for them, and they are in a muck trying to figure out the new landscape of college football. Their hierarchy and alumni base are even more problematic than the BE hierarchy and presidential webs, and the obvious solution will take a good while to achieve popularity and consensus. Their lack of vision and quick action has hurt them so far, and may hurt them even more.

Intersting possibilities though--I keep imagining a world with a NotreDame BE football conference with the present football schools, and it seems so very ludicrous.

8-)

From Savior to Target in a Year
By DAVID PICKER
Published: November 8, 2003
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/08/sports....partner= GOOGLE

Following is a link to a thread on an Iowa Hawkeye board, discussing ND, et. al., as Big Ten number 12: http://mb2.theinsiders.com/fiowafansfrm2.showMessage?topicID=4336.topic

I find the post by Tiggerhawk particularly interesting. And here's an idea I'm just going to throw out there:
what if the Big Ten isn't waiting on ND, but is actually waiting on another school??? I have a hunch that the Big Ten might be waiting for either Missouri or Rutgers to really get their programs off the ground and really become legit contenders before they give either an invite. While we all know that ND is a good geographic fit, that where the similarities stop and the differences begin. And truth be told, Notre Dame really does belong in the BE in more ways than one, despite the fact that I really do hate the Big East a lot!!! >:( Of the two schools, I think Missouri has the potential to become the next Penn State. I really do. When asked about expansion, I believe the Big Ten conference commisioner said he was looking for another Penn State. Is ND a "Penn State"?? Not really. Is Mizzou a "Penn State"? Not at this point in time, but I believe they have the potential to become another Penn State down the road. ;)

The Big 10 would take Notre Dame in a nanosecond. Missouri probably. Rutgers, no.

Very fine find of a very relevant thread, cybercat. We are all in your debt. The posts by tiggerhawk seem unusually well-informed by perhaps a Big10 insider, and pretty discouraging about either NotreDame or Mizzou. I am a little sceptical of his version of the latest round of feelers between the Big10 and NotreDame, however. I have read the Big10 news sources for years, and do have some contacts among college faculty friends who talk to Notre Dame folks with some regularlity, and the tiggerhawk version just does not jive with events as I recall them from several years ago. It could just be the personal opinion of someone connected with the Iowa president's office perhaps...

It IS the case, as tiggerhawk reported, that NotreDame does not currently have the research/graduate emphasis that all the Big10 schools do. But NotreDame faculty and leadership have repeatedly stressed the need to change this, which is very different from their vision of the 60's and 70's. As I have posted before, they aspire to be the Catholic Harvard, so this is totally inconsistent with some of tiggerhawks comments. I do know from friends that NotreDame is much more succesful in placing its doctoral graduates at prestigious other schools than in the past, and much more competitive with both real and public ivies in this regard than in the past. I think NotreDame's academic vision is consistent with Big10 ideals. I just think NotreDame's alumni and fan base just can't change gears in this regard...

Just my two cents worth...

8-)