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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:51 am 
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University of Idaho still has an alumni base (from actually being old enough to have a substantial one) that Boise State dreams of. Boise has only been elevated from junior college for about 35 years. Heck, some of the programs BSU offers (Truck Driving School is the oft-named culprit) are still in the JC mold.

Now, the money has poured into Boise lately. Northern Idaho may get growth around Coeur d'Alene, but is stagnated elsewhere- that's really rather true of a good chunk of the non-urbanized areas of Idaho. The growing urban areas- as opposed to mission and curriculum changes- have caused growth in the "urban" schools.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:46 am 

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Illinois State University is a shortening of their former name of Illinois Normal State University, as they were a teacher's college, hence the name "Normal" in their name.


Actualy, I think it's because it's in Normal, IL.


Overall, these "commuter schools" are making way more money because they enroll more students and have better athletics teams.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:41 pm 

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Actualy, I think it's because it's in Normal, IL.


And Normal, IL was named as a city after the fact that they had the Illinois State Normal Schools.

"Normal School" is a term that is used to describe people being trained after they finished their elementary education, to be trained as public school teachers, as described in this link:

http://www.nd.edu/~rbarger/www7/normal.html


Quote:
THE NORMAL SCHOOL

On July 3, 1839, three young women reported to Lexington, Massachusetts, with hopes of attending the first state funded school specifically established for public teacher education (what were then referred to as "normal" schools). After taking an examination which determined they were satisfactorily versed in the subjects taught by the ordinary district school, they were granted admission to this experimental program, the first in the nation.


Here's the background on the history of Illinois State University, or what was originally called Illinois State Normal University:

http://www.mlb.ilstu.edu/ressubj/subject/isuhist/home.htm


Quote:
Illinois State University was founded in 1857 as the first public university in Illinois. The institution has a long and distinguished history. Among those influential in its establishment were Jesse Fell, who organized the campaign to locate the institution north of Bloomington, and Abraham Lincoln, who drew up the bond guaranteeing financial commitments to the new institution. The university was originally established as a teacher education institution with the name Illinois State Normal University. In 1964 the name was officially changed to Illinois State University, reflecting a broadening of the mission and offerings of the institution.


And here is a quote from the following website, that shows the original name of Normal, IL was North Bloomington, IL, and then they changed it after the city was chosen as the site of the Illinois State Normal University:

http://www.normal.org/AboutNormal/History.htm


Quote:
The History of Normal

In 1854 the town of North Bloomington was platted in the area which was commonly known as "The Junction," which was located at the intersection of the Illinois Central and the Chicago & Alton railroads. ...

...

In 1857, Governor William Bissell signed a bill to create a normal school. The term "normal" was based on the French teaching schools and was the general name for all schools set up to be teachers’ colleges. The bill stipulated that the permanent location would be the place that offered the most favorable inducement. Jesse Fell took up the campaign for Bloomington and obtained financial backing totaling $141,000, which surpassed the closest contender of Peoria, which raised $80,000. Abraham Lincoln, in his capacity as an attorney, drew up the bond guaranteeing that Bloomington citizens would fulfill their financial commitments. The University first held classes in Bloomington while the campus was being built north of Bloomington. Old Main, the all-purpose building for the University, was completed in 1861 and the state’s first public institution of higher education had a permanent home.

In February of 1865, the Town was officially incorporated under the name of Normal. Under the formal State of Illinois charter, a town government of five trustees was elected, sidewalks were constructed and the sale of "intoxicating drinks" was prohibited. This prohibition remained until the early 1970’s.


I see that you are probably a North Dakota State University fan, by your user name. So, in the state of North Dakota, most likely schools such as Minot State University and thingyinson State University were most likely estasblished as "Normal" schools. Every state has at least 1, and many time, multiple regional "Normal" schools. These are usually the "directional" named schools, such as Northern Iowa, Northern Illinois, Western Illinois, Southern Illinois, Eastern Illinois. I believe Minnesota State University-Mankato, Minnesota State University-Moorhead, Bemidji State University, and St. Cloud State University (all in Minnesota) were originally "Normal" schools, just like Illinois State University.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:49 pm 
Interesting.

It's also interesting to see some of the smaller state's "flagships" lose their footing as the state's top university.

Heck, even in big states!

Southern Mississippi and Louisville are clearly the top universities in their respective states, for example.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:08 pm 

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Interesting.

It's also interesting to see some of the smaller state's "flagships" lose their footing as the state's top university.

Heck, even in big states!

Southern Mississippi and Louisville are clearly the top universities in their respective states, for example.


What do you mean by "top universities"?

USM has the largest enrollment of Mississippi compared to Ole Miss and MSU. But as far as academics, Ole Miss and MSU are still slightly better.

University of Kentucky has more enrollment than the University of Louisville, and is also a slightly better university, academically speaking.

USM was better than Ole Miss and MSU on the football field this year, as they were the only one of the three to go to a bowl. Last year it might've been Ole Miss, tieing LSU for the SEC West title. USM won CUSA last year, so very close last year. However, both Ole Miss and MSU attract ~50K in the stands, and USM is in the 30-36K in their stands.

UK is worse on the field compared to Louisville, that is true. But still they get 60K in Lexington at UK home games, and Louisville get 40K.

Flagships are consistenly the top universities in academics and in football following across the country. The only exception is Idaho, where UI is better academically compared to BSU and ISU, but BSU draws more fans. For Nevada, well UNLV is only slightly drawing a little more fans than U of Nevada flagship in Reno. I think it was ~23K for UNLV this year and ~21K for Univ. of Nevada. University of Nevada had a slightly better record. The University of Nevada flagship is also better academically than UNLV. Enrollment is greater at both UNLV and Boise State compared to the flagships of U of Nevada and U of Idaho. But so what. Enrollment can change through time. History, mission, purpose is more fixated.

All the other flagships following the Flagship 1/Flagship 2/Consolidated Flagship Model that I described above exceed the commuter schools in all other states in football following except for Idaho and Nevada. All flagships in every state exceed their commuter schools academically. Otherwise they wouldn't be flagships. Thats where the state places the most fiscal resources, such as undergraduate education, research, number of faculty, number of degrees offered, infrastructure, etc. All flagships, for the most part, are peers with each other across the nation. In most cases, commuter campuses are not a peer institutions to flagships located in other states. Minot State is not a peer institution with the University of Oregon or Kansas State. Whereas the University of North Dakota and North Dakota State University are peers with the University of Oregon and Kansas State University.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 1:46 pm 
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I invite Bison to take a poll in Kentucky on whether Louisville football is more popular than Kentucky basketball. I know how I'd bet, and I've never set foot in the state. I have talked to "natives" who can't seem to help but bring up old Blue.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:19 pm 
Popularity is one thing, success is clearly enough.




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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 3:50 pm 

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Popularity is one thing, success is clearly enough.


Louisville and USM are not in the SEC for a couple of reasons. 1) They are not adequate institutional fits for the SEC, and certainly not for the Big 10, nor the ACC.
2) UK and Ole Miss, and MSU out draw them.

Louisville is the best football team in Kentucky and USM is sometimes the better football team in Mississippi. However, Louisville is going to the Big East and not the SEC or the Big 10, nor the ACC and USM is in the CUSA and not the SEC.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 4:23 pm 
Conferences be d**ned!

Louisville is better than Kentucky on the football field. Same with USM and MSU or UM.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:09 pm 
Louisville in the last decade, maybe post 1990, has been better than UK. Ole Miss and MSU have a longer football tradition than USM. MSU has been to the SEC Championship. Ole Miss almost went to the SEC Championship last year.

The support at these flagships far exceed their commuter in-state brethren.

Again, Boise State and UNLV fit what you are describing in pretty much all sense of the word. That has something to do with the geography of Idaho and Nevada, and the concentration of a large percentage of those state's population in Boise and Las Vegas respectively. There are no other examples of what you are getting at when looking at only public universities within a state.

Ole Miss, MSU and UK have more tradition, and support in those states. It is only recently that Louisville has been better than UK.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:40 pm 
The only reason for that support is the tradition of winning!!

People don't just go "OMG SALLY! WE HAVE TO GO SUPPORT OUR STATE'S FLAGSHIP!!!!".

No no no, people go to games because they want to see their team ******win******.

Give it 10 years. Louisville and SM will be the flagships in their states.


BTW, USM is a doctoral extensive, so their academics are the same as Miss. and Miss. State.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:11 pm 

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Re: Big Sky Expansion Thread & Poll Comments
« Reply #102 on 12/10/2004 at 6:18pm »
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Quote:
The only reason for that support is the tradition of winning!!

People don't just go "OMG SALLY! WE HAVE TO GO SUPPORT OUR STATE'S FLAGSHIP!!!!".

No no no, people go to games because they want to see their team ******win******.

Give it 10 years. Louisville and SM will be the flagships in their states.


BTW, USM is a doctoral extensive, so their academics are the same as Miss. and Miss. State.


In order for that to happen, both Louisville and USM would have to expand their stadiums and have it be justified to expend scarce and scant financial resources to do so, meaning, they would have to know that those fans would show up.

UK fans are not all of a sudden going to go, "Hey, lets stop being UK fans and be Louisville fans". College football fans are fairly fair-weather, even if their team loses. Especially if they are allumni. UK has more allumni than U Louisville, because its been a bigger U longer than Louisville. USM was just made a university within the last 40 years. Both Ole Miss and MSU have been universities for 1.5 centuries or more and despite having slightly less enrollment to USM, they both probably have way more allumni than USM each.

If more people move to Kentucky and Mississippi, which isn't a lot as the population of those two states are most likely growing due to birth rates exceeding death rates -- net natural increase being the greatest contributor to their respective population growth, they are going to follow either the team that has the most household name, for Kentucky that would be UK, and for Mississippi, that would be Ole Miss and MSU over USM. But these are not states that are recieving rapid amounts of new people moving in, migrating to those states. The population growth is due to the birth rate exceeding the death rate. Which means that if their parents were UK fans, they are going to be UK fans, and there are more UK fans than Louisville fans and people are not going to convert their allegiances. Same with Mississippi, children of Ole Miss and MSU fans are most likely going to be fans of Ole Miss and MSU and not USM. Both USM and Louisville have been consistent enough in having winning seasons, and their growth in the fans hasn't changed much over the last 7 years or so, except when Louisville built Papa Johns stadium, maybe. Papa Johns Stadium of 42K is still quite a ways from the 65K found at UK's stadium in Lexington.

Btw, you don't change flagships based how a team does on the football field. The term "Flagship" relates to the role of the academic instution in the state, in its academic purpose. Louisville and USM are not Flagships.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:09 pm 

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BTW, USM is a doctoral extensive, so their academics are the same as Miss. and Miss. State.


Well, this is what the University of Mississippi's website says, according to this website link:

http://www.olemiss.edu/hospitality/about/history.html


Quote:
The story began in 1848 when The University of Mississippi – the flagship university of the state – opened its doors to its first 80 students. The research extensive, doctoral degree-granting University now has nine academic divisions on its main campus: College of Liberal Arts; the Schools of Accountancy, Applied Sciences, Business Administration, Education, Engineering, Pharmacy, and Law; and the Graduate School. Research excellence has led to UM's selection as home for more than 20 major research centers that garner national and international attention. The McDonnell-Barksdale Honors College, Croft Institute for International Studies, Lott Leadership Institute, and Institute for Racial Reconciliation also strengthen and expand the academic experience.
The health sciences complex in Jackson trains health professionals in the fields of medicine, nursing, health-related professions, and dentistry. With a goal of bringing the resources of the university to the people it serves, Ole Miss continues to expand academic courses and degree offerings on its Tupelo and Southaven campuses.


And this is what the MSU website says about MSU, as being the only Doctoral I institution according the Southern Accredidation Board, in the state of Mississippi, and we've already established that Land Grant Universities are flagships of the County Extension Service, and have a very statewide purpose:

http://www.msstate.edu/web/gen_info.htm


Quote:
The University
After more than 125 years, through the efforts and dedication of generations of men and women, Mississippi State University has come to be a comprehensive, doctoral-degree-granting university offering to a diverse and capable student body a wide range of opportunities and challenges for learning and growth; to the world of knowledge, vigorous and expanding contributions in research, discovery, and application; and to the State and its people in every region, a variety of expert services. Mississippi State University is the only institution in Mississippi designated as a Doctoral I university by the Southern Regional Education Board. In its continuous and continuing growth to this stature, it is at once representative of the American Land-Grant tradition and distinctive in its own character and spirit, born of its Mississippi heritage and the vision and loyal perseverance of those who have labored in its development. Mississippi State University is accredited by the Commission on Colleges of the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools (1866 Southern Lane, Decatur, Georgia 30033-4097; telephone 1-404-679-4501) to award baccalaureate, master's, specialist, and doctoral degrees.


And the University is the flagship university for the Commonwealth of Kentucky, as stated on their website (its also the Land Grant U):

http://www.uky.edu/Home/2003-06Strategic%20Plan/vision.html


Quote:
The University, as the flagship institution, plays a critical leadership role for the Commonwealth by promoting human and economic development that improves lives within Kentucky's borders and beyond. The University models a diverse community characterized by fairness and social justice.


So you are wrong about Louisville and USM being flagships in their respective states. Those roles are already taken by UKentucky, Ole Miss, and MSU, respectively.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:33 pm 
Also, the Legislature of the Commonwealth of Kentucky established the University of Louisville as a metropolitan university for the Commonwealth, meaning, its like what Boise State is, i.e. not a flagship:

http://www.louisville.edu/about/mission.html


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The University of Louisville shall serve as Kentucky's urban/metropolitan university. Located in the Commonwealth's largest metropolitan area, it shall serve the specific educational, intellectual, cultural, service, and research needs of the greater Louisville region. It has a special obligation to serve the needs part-time, nontraditional students.


And USM's website was down at the time I am posting this. But I have visited that website before, and in its history, it was established as a Normal School, like many other "directionals". It now has research and doctorate granting capabilities, but its not a flagship school for the state, as the University of Mississippi owns that designation and role, not USM, as noted in the previous post.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:42 pm 
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Frozen tundra is a good name to describe the way this thread is turning. Hattiesburg and the state of Kentucky will be frozen tundra when USM and Louisville are the top universities in their state in either academics or fan support. UL has a short history as a good fb team. UK draws closer to 65k when they aren't awful like this year. Louisville isn't #1 in Louisville, let alone the rest of the state. USM isn't in as good a shape as Louisville except that they have had good fb teams for a longer time.


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