Yeah ! TS2 - do you have any inside info on Villanova ?

They are going from a BE team playing D-1AA in the A-10 to a BE team playing in the CAA. The members of that FB league really haven't changed. It almost seems like a seamless name change. So this would be insignificant. If you have info that they are contemplating an upgrade to D-1A, that WOULD be significant.

Temple did sign about a 15-year deal to use Lincoln Financial Field. They needed a field to play on, they sure don't need 80,000 seats, though... Their schedule the next few years involves a number of MAC, ACC and BE teams. They could go on like that indefinitely.
Joining the MAC for FB only would do WHAT for them ?
Give them a share of the Motor City Bowl and GMAC Bowl proceeds ? What does the MAC get from splitting that 13 ways instead of 12 ?

I think Army & Navy prefer to play a lot of eastern schools (to keep travel costs reasonable), and schools with a BCS profile (to enhance their status, by whom they associate with). Since going independent, Army is no longer locked into playing a bunch of CUSA opponents. And if a 12th game becomes permanent, both schools will have a lot of flexilibity. Since the BE has only 8 schools, that equates to 7 conf. opponents + 5 OOC games. So it is very believable that Army / Navy could each schedule a goodly number of BE opponents.

If the military commitment didn't scare off a lot of prize recruits, Army & Navy would field better teams, and they would both be near the top of the list for BE expansion.

But Villanova ????

this is exactly what i was thinking, except for charlotte. i think this bball conference will want to address the massachusets market before going so far down south to charlotte. so i would take umass instead of charlotte, unless the fball big east takes them and then i would consider boston u. if the boston issue is addressed, this conference would have virtually all the major media markets of the northeast and midwest.

part 2:

if the new bball conference takes who i expect them to take, then that that leaves the new a10 with nine members:

st. bony
fordham
uri
st. joes
la salle
duquense
george washington
richmond
charlotte

alot could happen from this including

• st bony and fordham to the maac w/ the rest of ny schools


• taking boston u to replace umass and settling at 10, if the new big east ball doesnt take them first


• taking some caa non-football schools or america east schools(i dont think the caa football schools will leave for the a10 as they have wha theyve always wanted, a stable all sports conference)


• taking some maac school for st. bony and fordham or some horizon schools to stay in the midwest


• stay at 9 with three north schools, three pa schools, and three south schools

should be interesting

ACC Seahawk -

So you have Temple landing where ?

Assuming that there is a post-2010 division of the BIG EAST's basketball (DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Notre Dame, Providence, Saint John's, Seton Hall, Villanova) and football (Cincinnati, Connecticut, Louisville, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, South Florida, Syracuse, West Virginia), it seems like the basketball conference would emerge with two primary expansion options:

(1) adding Dayton and Xavier;
(2) adding Dayton, Xavier, and two additional members;

I'm not so certain that the (basketball) BIG EAST would be eager to add more than two members at the outset, if at all, especially if it would entail reverting to divisional play for a third different time...that being said, it seems like Holy Cross and Saint Louis would be the most logical choices as 11th and 12th members..

Founded by former PC coach Dave Gavitt and based in Providence, the BIG EAST has seen its proportion of Catholic/New England schools decline in every expansion following the initial addition of Villanova...it would seem as though Holy Cross would be the most logical expansion candidate to be added (in deference to Providence) in any expansion, especially in contrast to Boston University, Massachusetts, or even UNCC...

Villanova has had their chance to align themselves with Football EAST since the mid-1990s and has never seemed particularly apt to do so...not sure what would make the VU administation change their minds...then again, they did reinstate football after a four-year absence (1981-1984; granted their departure was as a I-A program)...

sorry i forgot to mention temple.

the infamous big east memos seem to show that temple was a heavy favorite among the football schools but they knew nova would never allow that to happen. with a split they dont have to worry about nova, and can add temple, which would be a good move and hopefully temple can prove themselves worthy for reinclusion.

mr. ouija, i forgot about holy cross. they would be an excellent addition instead of a umass or a boston u. i see this big east bball schools favoring 12 because they could do divisions which would ease travel.

northeast:
providence
georgetown
villanova
seton hall
st. johns
holy cross

midwest:
marquette
depaul
xavier
dayton
st. louis
notre dame

that would work out perfectly and they would be a force in college hoops.

by putting holy cross with the bball schools instead of umass, that leaves them in limbo. they could either stay in the a10 making it, GASP, a ten team league, or they could upgrade to 1-a and be the massacusets outlet for the fball big east, which would be my preference.

The irony is that Holy Cross was apparently courted by the BIG EAST during its formation, but abdicated in favor of Boston College. HC was subsequently a member of the ECAC-North Atlantic/America East and the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference before becoming a two-time charter member of the non-scholarship Patriot League ("Colonial League" football preceded PL basketball by about four years).

In the latter-half of the 1990s, HC hired alumnus/former Western Kentucky (Sweet 16) and Pittsburgh coach Ralph Willard and resumed offering basketball scholarships with the sanction of the PL. HC qualified for the 2002-2003 NCAA Tournaments and is the 2005 PL regular-season champion. I believe that their home court (Centrum Centre?) has been selected a first-second round site for the NCAA Tournament.

That being said, the only basketball program to exit the PL for greener pastures (Fordham to the A-10, 1995) served as a perennial doormat for the better part of a decade (granted, FU didn't resume offering basketball scholarships until after their departure from the PL).

If for some unforeseen reason Villanova would choose to align itself with Football EAST, their logical replacement would be Saint Joseph's (apparently the original BIG EAST's third choice for Philadelphia, following Temple and then Villanova).

Partial alignments for Army and Navy with BE( about 4 games each after 12 game season approved)

ND will play at least 3 BE schools per year plus Army and Navy .


Villanova the movement from A10 to CAA has not been fully finalized.Richmond only recently accepted after a big fight.There was story out of Boston tv station back in 2003 that Villanova would share ND football schedule.This story was quickly hushed up.However,we all know that BC left for the ACC and was not happy about other things with regard to ND and this well might have been part of it.

Thanks for the Info TS2, Ouija, ACC Seahawk -

TS2 -

So you think the proposed format called for the 8 full-time FB schools to play the other 7 + ND/Nova + Army/Navy = 9 games each ?

Army/Navy - 4 teams each + ND (+ Nova ?) = 5-6 games each

ND - 3-4 teams + Army + Navy (+Nova ?) = 5-7 games

Nova - 4-5 teams (+ Army / Navy / ND) + ?

This would be a strangely concocted 12-team league, but given the BE's strong disregard for standard formats, hardly beyond the realm of possibility.

I suppose back in 2003, Villanova had to begin studying the feasibility of this, and be ready to jump on board at some point. Have they backed off ? Or is it still under study for implementation in what year ?

I know nothing of Villanova's FB facility, but Temple may have beaten them to the punch with regard to Lincoln Field. There would still seem to be a lot of Saturdays open there, however.

This sounds bizarre but not unthinkable... any links to concrete substantiation of such discussion ?

I kinda believe something is / was in the works for BE football, because Army left CUSA and Navy seemed to want to stay independent (or put themselves in the same boat with Army) AS THOUGH THEY WERE PROMISED SOMETHING. Maybe they figured that their natural schedule involved each other, Air Force, ND, and a number of eastern schools, rather than about 8 games vs. southern schools in CUSA.

I also found it VERY CURIOUS how the A-10 was intimately informed of all the BE / CUSA goings on, and seemed to open their arms to St. Louis and Charlotte, almost on cue. St. Louis and Charlotte really stretch the A-10 to the West and South (not to mention 14 teams), so maybe the explanation had to do with a grand realignment, after the BE splits into a FB component and a (mostly or entirely Catholic) BB component.

That BB conference does lay out nicely as 12 with Dayton, Xavier, St. Louis going to a western division (with Marquette, DePaul, ND), and someone else (Holy Cross ?, Charlotte ?, UMass) aligning with the old BE 5 (Georgetown, Nova, Seton Hall, Providence, and St. Johns) in an eastern division. Perhaps the A-10 was informed as a courtesy, to allow them to prepare for the day when this happens, and they get "plucked".

The ND part is for sure.Army and Navy will be playing ND as well as Rutgers and Uconn .That leaves a few more games for Army and Navy.(old CUSA rivals for Army etc.

The Villanova part is based on an ABC affilate in Boston from 2003 during the league movement.Now the movement from A10 to CAA football is the second part.Villanova has not committed to that.

If you look at this way ND is supplemented Villanova's schedule by playing 3 of its 8 games.And Villanova would likely play Army and Navy.Of course this is the BE where everything is a DEAL.

None of that is "for sure". ND expressed an intention of playing a few BE schools, but not until the next decade, its schedules being set until then. There has been nothing in the Baltimore or Washington press about Navy's involvement with the BE.

Yeah, I realize a lot of that may have just involved some proposals bandied about in late 2003, as first Miami, then VoTech, then BC left for the ACC. And some of that stuff with Villanova may never go beyond the "hey, what if..." stage.

I believe Pitt and Notre Dame signed an agreement to play each other every year for about an 8 - 10 years stretch, so Pitt may be set up to be a "permanent" BE opponent for ND.

I was under the impression that Villanova had agreed to play CAA football, starting in 2007.

My source was the article of about 2 weeks ago, which discussed whether the Richmond Spiders would join the CAA or perhaps go elsewhere, such as the Patriot League. The article stated that all of the other A-10 football teams had agreed to move to CAA football, and Richmond was the only school still hanging out there, and they were asked to respond by last Friday 3/4/05.
So (seemingly to gig the CAA folks) they waited until the last minute.

If that article was accurate, Maine, New Hampshire, UMass, R.I., and Villanova were already on-board with CAA football.

Even if this is true, that would hardly prevent Villanova from leaving, after providing perhaps 1+ years notice to the CAA, which might also be concurrent with the other stuff they'd have to go through, assuming they would upgrade to D-1A to play BE teams.

As soon as it was apparent that Marquette and DePaul would be leaving the CUSA behind in addition to UofL and Cincy, St. Louis and Charlotte saw the writing on the wall that CUSA would be moving toward all sports memberships. Even if they were to remain involved with the league (a la the BE non-1-A schools) they felt the costs/ returns would not be worth it and immediately spoke with the league offices about the prospects for a move.

The A-10 did welcome them with open arms and with common knowledge that the stay for St. Louis might not be permanent. This fact was even illustrated in the press, where St. Louis officials knew the A-10, engorged as it may be, offered the best exposure, money, etc available outside of the CUSA but that somewhere down the line they might find a more comfortable midwestern home. But since these schools and the A-10 brought added-value to each other, the marriage was welcomed without hesitation.

Was it with a clear eye towards the realignments we're proposing? Until we see "The A-10 Papers!" none of us will know for sure, but surely there was some sense that additional changes would come. Obviously if the BE couldn't hold itself together from the start there would be A-10 teams called into the loop as early as this fall. If not, the A-10 would be in the position to gently off-load the weaker members.

- - - - - -

While I agree that the aforementioned CYO version of the BE basketball schools appears logical, some questions remain, IMO:

- How economical is 12 for a league that isn't playing football? Would they be better off holding at 8 to preserve round robin schedules and conference tourney's that only involve 3 days and offers more tickets per school?

- If the above, what then? There are enough candidates to formulate a midwestern and northeastern conference in the same CYO vein, but would involve the same NCAA hold ups on memberships that caused the BE problems in the first place. Plus it would take ND from their established BE ties. (* = plays AA football)

BE - northeast version
*Holy Cross
Providence
*Fordham
St. Johns
Seton Hall
*Villanova
*Georgetown
*Duquense

BE - midwestern version
Marquette
DePaul
Notre Dame
St. Louis
Xavier
*Dayton
Detroit Mercy
Creighton

Other options include Canisius (Buffalo), Sienna (Albany), while Sacred Heart (CT), St Francis (PA) and St Peter's (NY) also play AA football.

Either way, predominantly Catholic-Jesuit leagues the A-10, NE and MAAC will be impacted.

I mention this to dicuss the potential scope of change awaiting depending on what happens to the BE. The A-10 could lose so many of it's stroner members that dissolution may be better for those left behind.

Must ponder some more.