Friar,

I thought Lash had made a comment somewhere about BC tagging along with Miami and talking with the ACC before 2003. It talks about it in the court document. My memory of him posting something about it must be incorrect though. Apologies.

PatherSC97, there were always rumors of Miami going to the ACC. Miami went public which was reported in every major national newspaper that it itended to remain with the Big East football schools just to go back on its word. This was disgraceful and hard to take from a fan of Miami football. If the school had not done this, then it would have been no different than Va Tech going to the ACC and understandable. BC is totally different situation and primary due to scare of losing access to the BCS based its decision to go to the ACC.

Tigersharktwo, in today's Arizona Repulic Newspaper a very good article on Pac 10 wanting and needing more eastern exposure may lead to future conference shuffles. I think the Pac 10 is going to try and schedule more eastern type teams, however, the big issue is 12 team conferences in the BCS are getting all the media hype and attention.

The Pac 10 has by far the best records of all BCS conferences, yet get less members voted in the polls. The ACC has 6 teams in the polls yet has not come close to the Pac 10 success in BCS football over the last five years.

Sooner or latter the Pac 10 is going to realize that expanding to 12 will get the conference the attention it so desires and this may cause the 3 factors in the Big East to finally come to blows.

Less face it, 8 football members are just too small of numbers in today's super conference BCS status, and the Big East and Pac 10 are the two smallest and get less exposure.

The Big East is going to need more football members and how it gets them will depend on compromise or a split.

I do not see the Big East football schools taking some basketball schools as you stated. Its going to be an 8 x 8 split or compromise and agreed a compromise is going to be difficult if not impossible feat to over come.

So, the Big East will probably not use the Gavitt plan for further expansion and split is just a matter of time.

Its all about economics. I am not necessarily a big pusher of 12 team conferences, however, the Pac 10 and Big East need to follow the BCS pack or get left behind in valuable exposure.

Notre Dame is taking a big risk and if the Pac 10 expands and Big 10 would probably come very soon after for expansion to 12. In fact the Big 10 may have to expand sooner due to very unbalanced schedules.

I just get the feeling in the air that something is brewing and next round of expansion may be closer than I originally realized.

The Big East will need 12 football members. Which ones will it be? There will be no part members playing certain sports as this has caused the many years of instablility in the current Big East.

So have to disagree with you and an 8 by 8 split is on the fault line and will most likely happen.

Army and Navy would have to come on board as full members.

I do think the Big East will take as many eastern teams as possible to get to 12 football members.

Villanova does not have time to move in up in five years would be my guess and Temple has already had it chance in the sun.

UMass would be a very good candidate if some planning could get off the ground at that school. The school is going to have to act fast.

Delaware is interesting, however, offeres very little in markets and other sports.

Buffalo is interesting as an eastern team, however, is so poor in football.

Marshall may come back into the scene if football improves at the school in Conf USA and the state of West Virginia would probably force WVU to support a move into the Big East if WVU objected i.e Virginia/Va Tech in ACC expansion.

In a push come to shove for expansion would not rule out East Carolina as a candiate. Markets are limited, however, the schools is close for travel and gets good attendence.

So for now, I would pick UMass to upgrade, and take Marshall or Memphis, along with Army and Navy. If the academies do not want to join then take East Carolina to retain as close of a geographical region as possible. Todedo or some mid western school could also be used to maintain a close geographical region and help keep travel cost down.

Again, I just get the feeling that something is starting to brew that will cause the Big East to have use the five year option and expand to 12 for football.

Excellent post by Lash. I agree with most of it about the BE, I still think if a split occurs then Temple and Memphis will be the ones. Mainly bc of basketball. The NE is still about hoops. But Marshall could replace Memphis or Temple bc of the WV politics. East Carolina is a very good possibilty but the BCS cut off seems to be 4 teams as the max per state. I don't see Army and Navy as full all-sports members though. Patriot League is good for them in all other sports. Plus if Memphis & Temple is added that would make a really good 10 team hoops league.

Now for division lineups for football:
North
Connecticut
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
Syracuse
Temple
West Virginia

South
Army
Cincinnati
Louisville
Memphis/Marshall
Navy
South Florida

That is a very solid league in terms of hoops, football, markets and attendance. Also it could turn out to be very stable for the BE as well.

Now to the Pac-10 point. I'm suprised to hear about them trying to expand, but its that catching up to the Joneses type thing. I know they would love to steal Texas and Colorado away but I don't know if they would want to leave the Big 12 right now. Big 12 is down a little bit, but its still a pretty good fit for both schools. But you know publically the PAC 10 doesn't seem to think anything of the MWC but inside they fear them a little. Not that will ever take away the PAC-10's spot as the top western conference, never will happen, its the fear of them doing stuff. Mainly if the PAC-10 loses a BCS spot to a MWC school again you know things will start to try to pick up with expansion to knock down the MWC a peg or two. That is what both BE and PAC-10 can do with MWC and CUSA. Utah continues to do well, they are a fairly good academic school and offer a good market which the PAC 10 already has in some extent but could fully deliever to itself. Now the other school, BYU. Clearly they are the best non BCS school out there. They were the highest rated school in the Sear's Cup that wasn't in a BCS conference, they have a pretty market in the Mormon population, facilities and the cash to be competive. They offer a few negativies but overall the PAC-10 could work it out. Another thing that I just thought of - call it out of the box. There was talk on here that the PAC-10 would like to get rid of Oregon St and Washington St. Probally mostly from the California schools, well if they added BYU and Utah put them in a division with the NW schools, they wouldn't have to see them that often. But the one key I see to PAC-10 expansion is getting Stanford to vote for it.

PAC-12
North
BYU
Oregon
Oregon St
Utah
Washington
Washington St

South
Arizona
Arizona St
California
Stanford
UCLA
USC

What could Army and Navy possibly bring to the table in terms of athletics? I understand the TV draw for the annual Army vs Navy football game, but other than that.....there is nothing!

Neither Army or Navy need or want any relationship with the BE other than for football .All the other sports are in the Ptriot League.They both have long term football relationships with ND will have such a relationship in football with the BE.They both have good crowds for their home games and now have relationships with ESPN.

Football would be the only sport. They both have good attendance, good tv support and are in the northeast footprint.

Just my opinions on here.

Army/Navy-Great traditions and fan support plus the geography make these schools nice additions to the Big East. The drawback is obviously competitiveness with Army and Navy, therefore they make the most sense as associate Big East members playing 4 games a year to fill out schedules and in turn they provide the Big East with a couple more attractive options for bowls. An associate agreement between Army/Navy and the Big East is close to imminent.

Villanova/UMass/Delaware-These schools are going to have to make the upgrade to Division 1-A if they want serious Big East consideration. Looking back at the Big East papers, the Big East only looked at MAC and CUSA candidates for expansion. Villanova has a much better shot than the other 1-AA notables with Big East membership and the Philly market. It doesn't appear that Villanova is interested at this point in making the move up.

Buffalo-They have two major obstacles preventing Big East membership. One problem is Syracuse who wouldn't want another Western NY team as long as the Orange are in the conference. The second problem is they don't make the Big East attendance requirement of a 20,000 average, and fall far short of this number. Its going to be difficult to foresee Buffalo having good fan support because its a pro sport market. Maybe, if the Bills left that could change but not while their in town. Additionally, Buffalo has some of the worst weather in the country and is not exactly an attractive place for recruits.

Marshall-Huntington is a mid major market and not a recruiting locale by any stretch of the imagination. Academics are an important factor, and I don't see very much Big East interest for Marshall's academics. Some try to compare the situation of Marshall/WVU to VT/Virginia. The very big difference is most of the ACC wanted Virginia Tech in the final analysis and they ended up the compromise candidate when the votes were not there for expansion originally. Marshall is not going to get much league wide support, unless the move is made to 12 and even then its questionable.

East Carolina-A very good choice. This program has Big East level facilities and support. I know North Carolina already has 4 BCS schools, but I don't think it really matters. Duke and Wake are not state schools so basically its only like having 2 state schools in NC. ECU has 26,000 season ticket holders and is talking about going to 60,000 seats. Also another positive factor is scheduling as ECU signed several Big East and ACC schools to series. ECU is not a great academic school, but its no worse than Louisville or South Florida so I doubt that would be an issue holding them back.

Ohio-Nobody is talking about this school, but it has a lot of positives going for it. It carries the state name and is located halfway between WVU and Louisville for easy travel. Ohio is now all over the Columbus market advertising to attract alumni to watch their new coach Frank Solich. They've averaged over 20,000 in home attendance before and would have no problem meeting that number in the Big East. They also have a 13,000 seat basketball arena and usually have 10,000 for weekend games. The football stadium is a little small at Ohio with 24,000 seats but with all the fund raising by Solich, they want to use the money to expand the stadium to over 30,000 seats. They took 2,500 to a game up at Northwestern 9 hours away this past weekend, so the long term potential of hitting a 30,000 average is there. The Big East is not going to expand for a few years and where programs are today is not as important as where they are going to be down the road and I think Ohio has a shot for this reason.

Lash,

I agree UMass would be the best choice for #9. Let the BE bring in Eastern schools. Then Army & Navy (although Navy isn't talking about it). Finally, if they're going south, take UCF as a travel partner for USF in all other sports. Of course, this assumes a split-off of the Catholic Conference in BB.

Westwolf, I agree on UMass because UMass would complete the north division of a 12 team conference by including UMass, UConn, Syracuse, Pitt, WVU, and Rutgers. Since the BCS granted the Big East BCS status due to maintaining an eastern interest in the BCS, expanding with UMass would sure up this benefit. There would be four states that have the primary state university part of this division making it more like the ACC, SEC or Big 12. Factor in Syracuse as the primary major university from the state of NY and Pitt the primary university in western Pa and this makes a BCS division that compares with most of the other divisions of the current three BCS leagues that have divisions.

The tricky part of Big East expansion will come from the south division. Which three teams should join Louisville, Cincinnati, and South Florida?

It will probably take five years for the BE to be able to split regardless if the Pac 10 and Big 10 expand to 12 before then, so the other three teams in the south will likely come from Army/Navy and the best all sports candidate or from the best 3 all sports candidates at the time performing in football including attendance.

I like Army/Navy for football and it would be a toss up between Memphis and Central Florida as the last member of the six team division in the south!

Since Memphis is so vital to the stablity of Conf USA, the Big East may take Central Florida to avoid the issues that the ACC caused with expansion of Big East teams.

Central Florida was being considered in the Big East before, so it would provide a nice travel partner for South Florida.

If Army and Navy do not want to join a conference for football, then Memphis would be the obvouis choice to join Louisiville and Cincinnati in a six team basketball division. The other two teams that make sense are Marshall and East Carolina. Both have stadiums that seat 40 thousand for football and have good fan support for football and are close to Cincinnati and Lousiville for travel.

Sportskc, I dont want to imply the Pac 10 is ready to expand, the article in yesterday's Arizona Republic just stated the Pac 10 needs to do something to improve eastern exposure and interest for ESPN. I translate this into expansion to 12 teams. ESPN oves 12 team conferences because ABC/ESPN benefit from the championship game. I like Utah/BYU as the top choice for any expansion teams in the west. Since your have them in the north division, the California schools would probably be OK with that. This would probably be a major set back for MWC chances of landing a BCS automatic bid. On the other hand, the Big East expanding to 12 teams would almost assure its status would remain part of the BCS.

What will the tv market in Athens Ohio bring to the BE?Nothing
What will the tv market of ECU bring to the BE?Nothing
What will the tv market of Umass bring to the BE? Nothing

Nothing more than 3 million sets. Or are you content to just cede the state to the ACC?

Ohio U is a fairly well respected academic school in the MAC. I've traveled quite a bit through Ohio over the years and noticed a subtle presence of people I see on the road with Ohio U Bobcat memorialbilia on their cars. OSU is the only statewide team. That is clear. However, I believe if their is any other school that might be able to reach statewide status or even come close, which is quite a challenge, within that state, Ohio U is probably it. If Joefather is correct and they expand this school from 20K enrollment to 30K enrollment, and continue to expand their campus, it may just get some more attention. I noticed the one time I visited there, it reminded me of The College of William and Mary. But on top of this quaint academic setting, they were building like mad on that campus. It seemed like every other building was under expansion and construction. That was 7 years ago.

Now, they need to get their football up. But they just might do it. Although this past weekend might be a not too good sign.

I'm a weird Husker fan and feel our fellow son Frank Solich got a bad deal. I don't think he should have been fired from Nebraska. I am glad he was hired somewhere. Because of this, I am sorta a Ohio U Bobcat fan, because I want him to do well.

Athens is a small town of about 22K in a county of 65K. But they have probably the best statewide presence after OSU in Ohio, although OSU blows the doors off of them. Them and Miami U. Toledo, BGSU, UCincy, Youngstown State, Cleveland State, Kent State, Akron, and Wright State are very regional universities and don't go much out of their local regions in support. Ohio U is mostly in SE Ohio and probably takes in some of Columbus, but from what I have seen annectdotally, they seem to have a little more support statewide than other Ohio MAC and Horizon schools.




ECU is a regional substate team, mostly eastern NC. However, they are strong in that region. From what I can tell from their radio affialates, and newspaper coverage, they have strong support in all areas in NC East of Interstate 95. There is about 2.1 million people in all areas East of Interstate 95 in NC. This includes the midmajor markets of Fayetteville and Wilmington, as well as Greenville, Rocky Mount, Jacksonville, etc. Now, yes, UNC and NCSU are big in this area as they are in all of North Carolina as I can tell from their radio networks and newspaper coverage. ECU also has a strong presence in the Raliegh-Durham Media market as well as the Greensboro-Winston-Salem-High Point market. They are behind the ACC teams in those markets, but ECU does have some newspaper coverage there as well as one or two radio affiliate in each of those metro areas. That after the 2.1 million in the East of I-95 market. They are not too big out in Asheville and Hickory markets, however.

Now Wake Forest and Duke are relatively speaking, after looking at their radio networks, regionally supported teams in football. They are mostly those two metro areas: Research Triangle and Piedmont Triangle as well as Charlotte. However, there isn't much radio coverage in the ECU's East of I-95 market. Duke and WF don't appear to be competitors in that ECU local/regional market. Their is more buying power in the East of I-95 region in NC then in the Memphis market and any other CUSA team, save Orlando. Yes there is 3 teams there, but Memphis has not only Memphis but they have UTennessee, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, U Arkansas, and Arkansas State support.




UMass could bring a market anywhere from the level of West Virginia or a Nebraska on the smallest level, to the size of Indiana. Thats anywhere from the 1.8 million in the western 2/3rd of Mass where there is hardly no competition to the entire state of Mass, including Greater Boston metro -- that's 6.5 million. Yes Boston metro is very fragmented with 4 major pro sports teams and many colleges and universities including BC, just like Philly is. But UMass could garner a share of this market, but the Western 2/3rds of Mass market is free and clear with 1.8 million with hardly any competition -- which is the same as West Virginia. That's the best available market to the BE that isn't already claimed. All the other choices are overlapped with another BCS conference's statewide team and a nearby BCS conference private. As far as population and buying power, the UMass market offers the most combination of buying power and market. So it would offer the BE quite a bit in market for BCS appeal.

.......and East Carolina. The area that was behind Jesse Helms all those years, tobacco country, the Outer Banks, Wilmington, Lumberton, Greenville, Fayetteville, New Bern, Rocky Mount, Goldsboro, etc. OK, there are not big cities nearby except, Raleigh, home of NC State. That is not the real point. East Carolina is 1-A, has a good fb following by North Carolina standards and even BE standards. In fb, their fb attendance and following is not as big as WVU, but equals or exceeds much of the BE. Geographically, it is in the heart of ACC turf, and close to the northeast. That may not be bad for the BE.
To say there are perfect schools out there for which the BE to expand is not the case. East Carolina is not that different from what VA Tech was a number of years back.

We know the schools that would be candidates for a potential BE expansion. Some are currently 1-AA and most are in the eastern division of C-USA. Whether or not the politics and vision of the BE chooses to pursue that, is another matter.

The BE nor the B10 need not be waiting around for Notre Dame if they want to add a member or member(s). For the BE, Army and Navy would be more realistic as competing members, at least for fb. The academies may agree to a few games with the BE to help the BE fb schools balance out their home game scheduling. By location alone, one would expect they would be playing some BE schools as they do. And, if Notre Dame sticks with their promise and plays three BE schools eventually, that is neither profound or gracious. You either play eight or nine others on the same terms, or you don't. The academies by their uniqueness will stay independent also. The Naval Academy has gotten independent fb scheduling almost down to an art form.

Right, there are no perfect choices. One of the factors that they should consider is long term expandability of a market.

ECU I beleive is one of the better choices among the CUSA group. They are not perfect and need to get their football and bball up. But they are not exactly like Va Tech. Va Tech is the type of school that can get complete statewide following and then some. ECU is not. ECU is a regional team and will pretty much always be that. The reason is that you won't see the Western 1/3rd of the state being ECU fans with not only the statewide two flagship schools of UNC and NCSU, but also Appallachian State and Western Carolina. These are similar schools to ECU, as they are all regional schools with regional appeal. They are not UNC nor NCSU type schools and their followings reflect that.

College football is not like the pros, where people all of a sudden root for the St. Louis Rams after being KC Cheifs fans for so many years. The blood is thicker. UNC and NCSU will always dominate the state of NC. ECU can be on the same level or nearly the same level as UNC and NCSU primarily in the East of I-95 market, while having some support in Raleigh and Greensboro, but not on the levels of UNC and NCSU. The people that have followed UNC and NCSU are not all of a sudden going to follow ECU. ECU is mostly made up of people that either connect to them as they are allums or had a relative that went there, or they are the nearest team to their homes in Fayetteville or Wilmington. Their radio affiliates demarcate their market, which is not statewide and there is too much competition in that state for ECU to have any merit in Asheville, NC or Hickory, NC. Va Tech has radio affiliates in all of Virginia and some in DC/Maryland. ECU would have a hard time riding rough shot over the central and western portions of the state with 4 ACC teams, and then difficult in the Appallachian State, UNC Greensboro, Western Carolina, supported areas of Western/Appallachian portions of North Carolina.

Va Tech as a statewide school and identity is different because of their role as a land grant, and their allumni base throughout the state.

Umass and 3 million people is a fantasy.UConn is already in part of the westrn Mass and the belief that the Umass market will capture eastern Mass is also a fantasy.Look at the performance of Umass in sports.