The market size of other schools in those conferences mostly exceed NDSU. In the BSC, only NAU and Eastern Washington are smaller than NDSU. In the Mid Con, only SUU and perhaps WIU are smaller. In the UBC, only UVSC is smaller. In the GWFC, only SUU is smaller. Among 5 candidates for the BSC and Mid Con Conference, the only schools that NDSU exceeds in market is SUU and UVSC. NDSU has one of the smallest college sports markets in the nation.

Criticism is justified in the long term, until NDSU can continue to improve itself in the long term. One game does not define a program for an enternity. The sample size is too small for such a conclusion. What is happening can not be determined adequately until some time passes and performance is evaluated.

Metro- I said this win could be a big thing for NDSU, I never said once that it automatically made NDSU a name brand mid-major power program instantly. This is a win that will give NDSU a lot of conifedance, they are the youngest team in all of DI hoops and winning in Madison is no small task. Bo Ryan had a record of 68-3(at home) and Wisconsin hadn't lost a home non-conference game in 27 tries. Beating a team of Wisconsin's caliber at their court is really what makes this upset special. Also this is a win that will get presidents from both the Mid-Con and Big Sky and perhaps even the MVC talking because this will probably be the biggest win a mid-major has over a major team all year. As for down the road NDSU has a solid foundation of talent to build their program around they should be a deaper and more talented team next year, NDSU could easily have a stronger RPI next year. Also you are making WAY to big a deal out the Wisconsin paper mistaking NDSU for UND, most of national press I saw from yesterday made it pretty clear that NDSU beat Wisconsin not UND.

Also Ann Arbor is home to one of DI's best hockey programs so of course the people will know about UND(a fellow DI power) but you go to most other areas of the country and people will know just as much of UND's dominant hockey program as they know of Montana's or Georgia Southern's dominant IAA football programs. I willl also say this about NDSU's win over Wisconisin and that is that not one of UND's hockey titles ever got so much regional or national press and exposure for the school.

The NDSU basketball arena is due to undergo a 8-16 million dollar renovation and it is also on-campus(IPFW's is not) combine the BSA with the FargoDome which is also on campus and the Bison have better basketball facilities then IPFW. SDSU has the best of all the DI Indy's though, Frost is really a great basketball arena. In my opinion IPFW's is way to big and really I bet most of their games lack the great college atmosphere that you will find in either the BSA or Frost.

As for academics it is all debatable who is the best, but I would like to say that NDSU is taking a big jump at investing in academics. Ever since President Chapman has came here NDSU has been building up graduate programs and academic facilities. The school is in the middle of a 75 million dollar capital project that will build a new College of Business, renovate the Student Union, and continue the build up of the tech park and endowment. During Chapman's tenure NDSU's enrollment has increased 25% and research expeditures have gone over 100 million dollars. NDSU is really a school on the move in academics as well as athletics. I think NDSU's academic repuation is underated and hopefully people will take notice of the improvements the school has been making.

IPFW sure does have competition, do you honestly think that people in Fort Wayne Indiana don't follow the Hoosiers, Irish, or the Boilmakers. These are major instate schools and when you factor in the Pacers and Colts going against the U of MN and UND pales in comparsion. I am almost 100% postive that IPFW gets lost in the big wake that those teams make. For the last time Merto all of those schools are in big metros(I will admit it) but they all have almost no market penatration. NDSU's support runs deep in their market and being really the only DI team around that gets the bulk of the coverage is a huge deal. I'm sure all of the other UBC schools could only pray to get the amount of coverage that NDSU recieves from the region(even SDSU), they all pale in comaprasion. Being the only DI team in the Fargo market is really big because people tend to chear for the state's team whenever they are competiting at the highest level. NDSU fills that need and even some Sioux fans are coming around and starting to chear for and watch whatever Bison games are on. My cousin the biggest die hard UND fan I know is even planning to go to the Twin Cities and watch NDSU take on the Gophers in 2007. I have really never agreed that you can just spilt up a market because fans jump bandwagons and even the biggest supporters of a rival school will chear for their state or regional team when they go up against the highest level of competition, especially when their school is playing at a lower level. I am not saying that NDSU has total domination of their market because UND is big but I am saying that just because they are UND fans doesn't mean the won't watch, go to, or chear on NDSU at the highest level of competition in the state.

Hehe. The Bison beat the Badgers! The Bison beat the Badgers!

Metro might revel in his cleverness everytime he thinks he is sinking an oh-so clever barb under our skins but the Bison beat the Badgers. Market that.

You are not the only one talking here. My statement is directed to all the Bison fans that come here.




All those things are something remarkable. But it doesn't necessarily mean that Wisconsin didn't have a great game. On any given day, anyone can beat anyone, given the right circumstances. As I stated before, and as the announcer made the point during the Nebraska vs. Kansas Game, 5 games of the season you play above your potential, 5 games you play below, and the other 20 games tell the story of who you are. This is likely a case of Wisconsin shooting badly and having a poor day, aka brought their "D-game" and NDSU playing great and bringing their "A-game". Their have been 19 other games NDSU played. To describe the season, all the other 19 along with this one tell the story of who NDSU is.





I wouldn't count on it. Depending on how you categorize Gonzaga or Southern Illinois or Northern Iowa, those teams could have a win that is more grand. As far as the MVC. Don't count on it either. They don't have an interest in expanding and if they did their eyes would be on Saint Louis University. The Mid Con is already talking about NDSU. We also include them in the discussion here. The BSC as well. The travel distance of the BSC will always be a strong weakness. The only way it changes for NDSU in the BSC is if Portland State and Sac State change their minds. That is possible, but it always is an issue money, and those two schools have a problem with it. Location is a hard one to overcome.




They could also go down in RPI. The shifts from year to year in teams and talent is more changeable in college basketball than football.




No I am not. It was from the website from the very school that lost to them.

Also, I only saw two national press printed stories. ESPN had their story, and commentary article from Andy Katz. But Sports Illustrated, CBS Sportsline, and Fox Sports website all ran the very same AP article. National press are more likely to get it right. A local outfit in Madison can easily get it wrong, especially when "North Dakota State University" is 4 words and a lot of sylables, and North Dakota has the more noteriety.




Most people on the street in any area of the nation don't follow I-AA football. No schools on the I-AA level are not "household names", only BCS level or near BCS level schools are. The other day, after Nebraska beat Michigan in the Alamo Bowl, me in a very awkward situation being a Cornhusker in Wolverineland, I was discussing the reffing of the Alamo Bowl with some Michigan fans. If you watched that game, there were a number of bad calls during the game, including the lack of a call on the very last play of the game. The ESPN announcers mentioned that they were Sun Belt Conference refs. Well, when we discussed the reffing, the University of Michigan fans never heard of the Sun Belt Conference. I mentioned Arkansas State, and they said, "who?" The I mentioned Troy, then they slightly recalled them, but really barely. Then North Texas, and Louisiana Lafayette and Middle Tennessee State, and they go, "I never heard of them, don't they play Division II or III or something?" Most people on the street in never heard of I-AA football including Georgia Southern, or Montana, unless they are in their region.

Whereas in the northeast, Upper Midwest region, Hockey is big, and so is College Hockey. College Hockey are one of the biggest attended sports in this region. If you mentioned UND on the streets around here, most people would think, that College Hockey program from a nearly forgotten state that beat Michigan at Yost Arena in a NCAA Hockey Regional. If you went to any Northeastern college town, especially Ivy League areas and Hockey East college towns, or CCHA and WCHA hockey college towns, which is a large percentage of population in the US, they would have heard of the multiple national champion UND. North Dakota State University wouldn't even register on their minds. So neither is completely a household name, but in the Northeast-Upper Midwest UND household name in college hockey exceeds any I-AA knowledge. The only places where you would hear about I-AA fball on the street would be where there is a I-AA school, and even then most wouldn't know the national scene completely. Statesboro, GA, Chattanooga, TN, Missoula, MT, Bozeman, MT, New Ark, DE would be the exception. If you talked about I-AA ball in Northhampton, MA or Amherst, MA, people would call you a jock and wouldn't know what you are talking about (I knew someone who lived in the UMass area of Mass and basically stated this). I-AA football is not a household name, but in a very small amount of pockets of the US, and College Hockey which is big in the NE/Midwest (remember, the largest crowd ever for a Hockey game was U of Michigan vs. Michigan State in Spartan Stadium in 2000 in front of 72,000 fans) it is a household name and in some very populated a bigger pockets of the NE and Upper Midwest.




I've been watching sports most of the day today and last night and only saw a couple of mentions of it. There is only a link on ESPN and a commentary by Andy Katz plus thingy Vitales comments at Louisville/UConn game. Today I didn't even hear anymore of it. Last year, UND's hockey title was discussed more. Unless NDSU keeps up the work, this win will likely be forgotten.




Looks pretty darn good to me, and if they have similar attendance, that the main thing. They also have luxury suites:

http://www.memorialcoliseum.com/PremiumMenu.asp





I know both NDSU and NJIT have architecture schools, and NJIT has a way better reputation in architecture.

NDSU is increasing their academic profile, however, the likeliehood of a small state land grant exceeding a high tech-Georgia Tech like school like NJIT is not likely. Certainly NDSU can be ahead of UVSC, which is still quite a bit like a Junior College. And UTPA and IPFW is possible. However, NJIT is not likely to be exceeded by NDSU and SDSU as well. The regional and urban/metro schools of NIU, SIU, UMKC, UIC, WMU, Illinois State, Ball State, BGSU, Miami U of Ohio, ECU, USM, Wayne State (MI), UAB, all non-flagship/land grants will be hard to exceed as well. UAF, well, that's a different story.




I believe they do, but in every mid major metro area in the Midwest there is a midmajor college team that also gets strong support as the homebased team. Only Grand Rapids, MI is the only metro area of these size that doesn't have a school. Youngstown State, Kent State, Akron, Cleveland State, Toledo, BGSU, Wright State, Dayton, Cincy, Xavier, Miami U of OH, Detroit-Mercy, Oakland U, Western Michigan, UIC, DePaul, Northwestern, Chicago State, Valpo, IUPUI, Butler, Evansville, Loyola, UW-Milw, Marquette, Drake, Saint Louis U, UMKC, Missouri State, Wichita State, and Creighton are all examples of this. All Midwestern midmajor and major metro areas are represented here, and IPFW, as the lone team located in Ft. Wayne which doesn't have big Minor League sports is a prime sports team for such a market and has a strong local identity with the city.





"Market" means more than following and penetration. It also relates to potential for corporate sponsorship, advertizing dollars and recruiting base. NE Indiana is a better market for all of those compared to NDSU. The only apsect that NDSU may exceed IPFW in is the following.

And yes, there is the nearly equal split. You may have a few fans that cross, but you don't have people giving up blood to root for the in state rival.

ND by itself is small. Without NDSU dominating the sports market, it is a really small market in every aspect of what is meant by "market". UND and U Minnesota get in the way for NDSU to have a bigger market from a market that is already too small the wat it is. This coupled with the fact that other markets are growing faster and NDSU market is likely to get smaller in comparison to these other conference candidates, including IPFW's.

What stands out for me is the success the SUs are enjoying. We are so successful that even the most hard core opponents of Division I and the NDSU/SDSU move have changed their tune. Our tremendous early success has them studying a move of their own! That really runs against all their good advice!

We have established our market and it can support a Division I program. We have established our competitiveness. We have found early success in our conference hunt and have suffered some disappointment. We have provided local athletes with scholarship opportunities and the chance to compete at the highest levels. We are uncovering new corporate support. Last weeks $1 million dollar gift for the renovation of the BSA from Stop and Go is a great example.

Now the win against Wisconsin comes along! This is the watershed win. It was a big upset. Calling it an upset ties in all the negatives but excentuates the positive. This is huge positive that adds more fuel to the fire that success is at hand. The hurdles arent barriers. We have a lot assets and are building. Its all looking good from here.

I think this is a really good thing. I would like to thank NDSU and SDSU for moving up and causing other NCC schools to move up, or at least consider it. It was a bold move. It makes a lot of sense, and its good for the Upper Great Plains/Upper Midwest region and their respective college sports.




Its self evident that NDSU and SDSU, as well as other NCC teams have a market to be I-AA. The region is devoid of I-AA schools. They need more.




NDSU has done some good with this win and this contribution. However, over the long haul, and compared with other conference candidates, NDSU is potentially below the corporate sponsorship potential of IPFW. It probably exceeds SUU and perhaps UVSC though. Compared to NJIT, located in the most capitalistic metro areas of the world, probably below them.




There really isn't such a thing as a "watershed win" in college basketball. Behind baseball, basketball has the most games. There is more room for more variability in a season. What NDSU needs to do to prove itself is to have a "watershed era" over a 2 to 3 year period. Then you are likely to have a long haul the can sustain itself. Having a win over a #13 team doesn't place you in some sort of sustainable situation. You have to continue to earn it.

Heres some more on the Big Watershed Win from the Capital Times in Madison Wisconsin. They get some nice comments from BISON Coach Saul Phillips:

http://www.madison.com/tct/sports/general/index.php?ntid=69847&ntpid=0

The Independents get a mention but the UBC didnt. Too Bad.

The Stop and Go donation wasnt the first but is certainly helping confirm the expectation that there was enough unrealized corporate support for NDSU Division I athletics. We have $6 million of the $8-$10 million needed for the renovation of our sports arena. Its been a very impressive fund raising campaign.

I dont think there is any doubt about the ability of this market to support Division I athletics. Its doing it now in a fine fashion. Certainly the market is an asset to NDSU now with a lot of room for growth. This is the greatest advantage of the UBC. It is going to help us learn how to develop our sports market even further. Its a good opportunity for us.

Ps. Just saw the Sports Illlustrated web site with the NDSU/Wisconsin game featured. Some interesting talk about our move to Division I and our current situation:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/basketball/ncaa/01/22/bc.bkc.bisonshocker.ap/index.html

What's interesting is this quote in that article:




So Wisconsin brought their "D Minus Game" and NDSU brought their "A-game".

If Wisconsin played SDSU, SDSU could of won as well, most likely. It was one of those "5 games below their potential" for UW and one of those "5 games above their potential" for NDSU. The 11-9 season tells the story about the whole season thus far. Another few games left will sculpt the attributes of the season further for NDSU.




That's all impressive, but how much can it be sustained in comparison to what other candidates can provide over a long period of time. Ft. Wayne has 5 Fortune 500 companies, and Fargo has only 1.




Yes NDSU has the market to be I-AA. However, the market discussion here is two different distinct discussions. One is whether it has a market to be I-AA, and that answer is self evident, yes. But that reply doesn't necessarily fit as an answer to the other distinct market dicussion. Is its market bigger than any of the competitors for a conference candidacy. The answer to that question is No and Yes. NDSU's market exceeds one Mid Con Candidate: UVSC, is tied with one Mid Con Candidate or slightly below it: SDSU, and is smaller than one candidate: IPFW. NDSU also exceeds one BSC candidate: SUU, and is tied with SDSU.




Very similar to the other articles posted. Talking about how great of a win it is. But the article doesn't discuss future conference invites.

Can I talk about any number of "watershed" wins Boise State has had?

Really helps with the national TV coverage for the basketball team, correct?

Heck, NDSU already won a game against Wisconsin before this meeting.

In this case, congratulations from here to deep space! Bigger picture- it happens every decade. If it happens every year, especially in the tournament, THEN you have a program. See Gonzaga. See Loyola Marymount.

********************************

Metro, you are starting to sound jealous, without actually stating any sort of jealousy. I don't see anything warranting that. I do recall our Montana discussions. Thing is, I still wonder what compels the Mid-Con to expand at all.

********************************

Let's put it this way... everyone with a dish AND everyone with digicable gets a lot of interesting choices. I did get a decent dose of East Coast 1-AA football last fall. I'm getting a LOT of college hockey right now via the Fox College Sports regionals. Not everyone in Michigan knows that the rest of the country is probably more likely to tune out the hockey than anything. However, I can say with certainty that I'm getting a lot more college hockey on TV out in Boise than I am MONTANA football, much less any gridiron in the Dakotas. I hear about a lot of hockey schools with waiting lists for tickets. Montana has a waiting list for football, except they can't sell out playoff games. Neither are 1-A football or, as I like to call it, BCS basketball, leave no doubt. However, out where less streets have names, I have the strange ability to find more college hockey on TV than I do 1-AA football.

********************************

It's OK to jump up and down about taking the steps to appear viable in 1-AA. D-2 is not the most optimal place for an institution with statewide appeal. Next step- realizing that the next good step is to get your rivals into the fold. Hate sucks in terms of living your life, but it really sells when it comes to sports.

Okay, Pounder. I admit it. You found me out. Deep down I am a SDSU Jackrabbit fan on the side.

All I'm really trying to say...

Quality over quantity. In that vein, I've developed a serious disdain for repeating myself... which means I'm just a big wonderball of self-loathing on collegesportsinfo.com, but I do try hard.

It's not that you don't bring quality, but that rinse and repeat kicks in. I have enough laundry to take care of this week.

When you carried on with the replies here, it seemed like you had to have the last word. WIth time comes wisdom, and I think I've learned that those who usually get the last word usually don't bring the best word, and I have this misguided faith that the intelligent will pick up on those little details. In that vein, go ahead and psychoanalyze me at will. ;)

Ha Ha Ha, your right on Pounder!

The Capital Times
THIS WEEK FOR WISCONSIN


(14-4, 4-1 Big Ten Conference)


Wednesday

Penn State (10-6, 2-3), 7 p.m., Kohl Center. WISC-TV/Channel 3.

All of a sudden, the Badgers don't look as invincible at the Kohl Center after having their 27-game nonconference home winning streak snapped Saturday by upstart North Dakota State. The first order of business is for everyone wearing a Wisconsin jersey to find their shot after making just 16-of-72 field goals against the Bison. The Nittany Lions are like the Bison because they're young and won't be intimidated. They also can hit their shots,

NJIT maybe located in New Jersey and near New York City but it has NO MARKET AND NO FAN BASE.Only a true idiot would place it into a league thousands of miles from its base.The New Jersey newspapers have made this move into a complete joke.

This conference opportunity may not be the most efficient, but it has potential. Let a few more schools move up into the UBC and you might just end up with a nice setup. Depending on the number of schools moving up the options are really open. It could easily evolve into a very competitive, very efficient conference with auto-bid potential.

As new members join some will have football teams that can look to the GWFC. It might just work out. An auto-bid is very possible there too.