BIG EAST: To Split or Not to Split (on CSI News)

Quinn · **Joined:** Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am **Posts:** 3757

It's a long piece, so I created it's own thread.

Here's my take on a Big East split with some of the finances and history included into the decision making process.

Love some feedback...

BIG EAST: To Split of Not to Split

lash · **Posted:** Wed May 13, 2009 12:45 pm

Matt, this is a great article that includes input from many discussions that have taken place on this board over the last several years on the subject of a potential Big East split. There is is not a a board or blog in America that come close to having the same material and collaboration to use for research on benefits of Big East expansion.

The timing of this article is especially intriguing as the upcoming Big East meetings scheduled for Florida should and probably will have this subject at the top of the agenda.

Before I make any predictions on which move the Big East may take, there are a couple observations that should be reviewed along with you nicely written article.

When is enough? Over the years the Big East has expanded with just the minimum number of football members in each expansion exercise. After each expansion the Big East has realigned just to find it has not expanded enough and is venerable yet again to potential raids from other conferences or has additional football needs.

Your pick for Metro as the name of the new conference is a fantastic choice for both marketing benefits and for simplicity should the football schools need to split.

OK when is enough or how many teams do you really need long term for football? The recent Big Ten discussions on expansion provide some very good insight on how many teams you need for football. Unlike the ACC of 2003, the Big Ten has a couple models to review on what works for the size of a football conference. The Big Ten comments are on target as to what works and what does not work in expansion. It is quite obvious by now the SEC worked with expansion to 12 and the ACC did not. Everyone assumes the Big Ten is waiting on Notre Dame and this may be true to some extent, however, the failure of the ACC to succeed in 12 team aligned has a much to do with Big Ten reluctance to expand as any other factor. Not every conference is going to work with 12 members regardless of location. If you factor in the climate of most Big Ten cities, this would be one more barrier to staging a December championship game. The quote from the Big Ten commissioner directly relates to the failure of the ACC and can not be overlooked no matter how much every likes to hype 12 team conference alignment. The ACC has failed in its attempt to expand with 12 team conference and it has nothing to do with the current down trend of U of Miami and FSU football programs. The Big Ten is well aware of this and can use this to discourage any attempts for coaches or schools to push for future Big Ten expansion. Assuming this is true, the Big East is probably not as venerable to raids and some have predicted. It does not change the issues of the need for more football expansion in the Big East.

Since there is no benefit to expand to 12 for both short term and long term, the ideal or correct number is 9 for football. This has always been true and if only the ACC could turn back time.

9 football schools should take care of all the Big East football needs for the long term future.

How do you get to 9 football schools?

The football schools could split and form the new Metro. I don't believe it will come to this because there is only a need for one new football member for both short term and long term future football needs.

There is only one school that has the requirements to satisfy the football schools needs and not alienate the non Big East football schools.

Your article again hits the nail on the head in U of Memphis as the top choice for expansion.

Regardless if the football schools split and regardless if U of Memphis continues to stay at the top of the college basketball world with a new coach, the school has always been the best choice as the 9 football member.

If you do not split, Memphis is a basketball first school that should appease the non playing Big East schools. Once Memphis is admitted, the school would probably not push for a split in the future.

Factor in the Liberty Bowl and nice new market, it would not surprise me to see Memphis come up discussions for Big East expansion during the May meetings in Florida.

Quinn · **Joined:** Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am **Posts:** 3757

All excellent points, Lash.

I know I've mentioned it before, but I'm always looking for content for the blog to help bring people to the forums for us to discuss with. so if you ever have any ideas in longform, let me know and I'll highlight them as a news article. Same goes for all members!

Quinn · **Joined:** Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am **Posts:** 3757

More discussion on the Big East Split piece at viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2513 in the Conference Realignment News forum. I thought it was best to have it in both the Big East section as well as "news".

freaked4collegefb · **Joined:** Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:37 pm **Posts:** 7057

Quinn,your BE piece has spawned a very nice discussion on the BE MB at http://ncaabbs.com/showthread.php?tid=369474

carolinaknights · **Joined:** Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:41 pm **Posts:** 225

lash wrote:

Matt, this is a great article that includes input from many discussions that have taken place on this board over the last several years on the subject of a potential Big East split. There is is not a a board or blog in America that come close to having the same material and collaboration to use for research on benefits of Big East expansion.

The timing of this article is especially intriguing as the upcoming Big East meetings scheduled for Florida should and probably will have this subject at the top of the agenda.

Before I make any predictions on which move the Big East may take, there are a couple observations that should be reviewed along with you nicely written article.

When is enough? Over the years the Big East has expanded with just the minimum number of football members in each expansion exercise. After each expansion the Big East has realigned just to find it has not expanded enough and is venerable yet again to potential raids from other conferences or has additional football needs.

Your pick for Metro as the name of the new conference is a fantastic choice for both marketing benefits and for simplicity should the football schools need to split.

OK when is enough or how many teams do you really need long term for football? The recent Big Ten discussions on expansion provide some very good insight on how many teams you need for football. Unlike the ACC of 2003, the Big Ten has a couple models to review on what works for the size of a football conference. The Big Ten comments are on target as to what works and what does not work in expansion. It is quite obvious by now the SEC worked with expansion to 12 and the ACC did not. Everyone assumes the Big Ten is waiting on Notre Dame and this may be true to some extent, however, the failure of the ACC to succeed in 12 team aligned has a much to do with Big Ten reluctance to expand as any other factor. Not every conference is going to work with 12 members regardless of location. If you factor in the climate of most Big Ten cities, this would be one more barrier to staging a December championship game. The quote from the Big Ten commissioner directly relates to the failure of the ACC and can not be overlooked no matter how much every likes to hype 12 team conference alignment. The ACC has failed in its attempt to expand with 12 team conference and it has nothing to do with the current down trend of U of Miami and FSU football programs. The Big Ten is well aware of this and can use this to discourage any attempts for coaches or schools to push for future Big Ten expansion. Assuming this is true, the Big East is probably not as venerable to raids and some have predicted. It does not change the issues of the need for more football expansion in the Big East.

Since there is no benefit to expand to 12 for both short term and long term, the ideal or correct number is 9 for football. This has always been true and if only the ACC could turn back time.

9 football schools should take care of all the Big East football needs for the long term future.

How do you get to 9 football schools?

The football schools could split and form the new Metro. I don't believe it will come to this because there is only a need for one new football member for both short term and long term future football needs.

There is only one school that has the requirements to satisfy the football schools needs and not alienate the non Big East football schools.

Your article again hits the nail on the head in U of Memphis as the top choice for expansion.

Regardless if the football schools split and regardless if U of Memphis continues to stay at the top of the college basketball world with a new coach, the school has always been the best choice as the 9 football member.

If you do not split, Memphis is a basketball first school that should appease the non playing Big East schools. Once Memphis is admitted, the school would probably not push for a split in the future.

Factor in the Liberty Bowl and nice new market, it would not surprise me to see Memphis come up discussions for Big East expansion during the May meetings in Florida.

If and when the B-10 goes to 12 with ND, Rutgers, Syracuse, Pitt, or a potential B-12 member if they can coax them, and has championship game in December, it could be held in Indianapolis in the dome if the weather is a factor. It is also a center point for the conference for all of the teams and the fans to travel to.

Memphis and a 17 team conference. Build the FB end of the conference while you still have the security net of a superior money making BB program and TV contract. FB 4 home - 4 away. BB 16 game single round robin schedule. Adding one more team to the conference will not hurt the conference financially during the current TV contracts as the payouts to a new team would be minimized by deducting the entrance fee for the new team from those payouts over the first several years. Extend the get out of jail free card for another 5 years and give the option to both factions (FB and BB only's) to leave as a group for free when it comes due again in five years. The BE gains a bowl game (Liberty), potential corporate sponsor (Fed Ex) with Orange Bowl Clout, a good BB program, and a mediocre FB program to take care of the scheduling problem and help with recruiting in SEC territory in the Gulf region.

Personally I would prefer UCF for a USF travel partner and another season ending back yard brawl like WV and Pitt. It would shore up the Florida recruiting territory and help secure better Florida bowls, and UCF is applying for a bowl at there expandable stadium too. I don't think the BE can ignore a 50k student university pumping out a large alumni base every year and I don't think the BE should ignore the Orlando market and bowl season in that area. Finally with UCF in the league the BE teams get a road trip to Florida every year which will help their recruiting in that state. As far as the 17 team conference all that applies to Memphis above applies to UCF except of course the Liberty Bowl, Fed Ex, and the SEC recruiting area. Both schools have great potential for a BE addition. As stated before by Lash and the intial article on this subject, Memphis might be the conference choice as they open a new market in SEC territory and would be less polarizing to the BB schools and USF with their BB potential, Fed Ex sponsorship and the addition of the already established and high paying Liberty Bowl.

lash · **Posted:** Sat May 16, 2009 2:08 pm

carolinaknights wrote:

lash wrote:

Matt, this is a great article that includes input from many discussions that have taken place on this board over the last several years on the subject of a potential Big East split. There is is not a a board or blog in America that come close to having the same material and collaboration to use for research on benefits of Big East expansion.

The timing of this article is especially intriguing as the upcoming Big East meetings scheduled for Florida should and probably will have this subject at the top of the agenda.

Before I make any predictions on which move the Big East may take, there are a couple observations that should be reviewed along with you nicely written article.

When is enough? Over the years the Big East has expanded with just the minimum number of football members in each expansion exercise. After each expansion the Big East has realigned just to find it has not expanded enough and is venerable yet again to potential raids from other conferences or has additional football needs.

Your pick for Metro as the name of the new conference is a fantastic choice for both marketing benefits and for simplicity should the football schools need to split.

OK when is enough or how many teams do you really need long term for football? The recent Big Ten discussions on expansion provide some very good insight on how many teams you need for football. Unlike the ACC of 2003, the Big Ten has a couple models to review on what works for the size of a football conference. The Big Ten comments are on target as to what works and what does not work in expansion. It is quite obvious by now the SEC worked with expansion to 12 and the ACC did not. Everyone assumes the Big Ten is waiting on Notre Dame and this may be true to some extent, however, the failure of the ACC to succeed in 12 team aligned has a much to do with Big Ten reluctance to expand as any other factor. Not every conference is going to work with 12 members regardless of location. If you factor in the climate of most Big Ten cities, this would be one more barrier to staging a December championship game. The quote from the Big Ten commissioner directly relates to the failure of the ACC and can not be overlooked no matter how much every likes to hype 12 team conference alignment. The ACC has failed in its attempt to expand with 12 team conference and it has nothing to do with the current down trend of U of Miami and FSU football programs. The Big Ten is well aware of this and can use this to discourage any attempts for coaches or schools to push for future Big Ten expansion. Assuming this is true, the Big East is probably not as venerable to raids and some have predicted. It does not change the issues of the need for more football expansion in the Big East.

Since there is no benefit to expand to 12 for both short term and long term, the ideal or correct number is 9 for football. This has always been true and if only the ACC could turn back time.

9 football schools should take care of all the Big East football needs for the long term future.

How do you get to 9 football schools?

The football schools could split and form the new Metro. I don't believe it will come to this because there is only a need for one new football member for both short term and long term future football needs.

There is only one school that has the requirements to satisfy the football schools needs and not alienate the non Big East football schools.

Your article again hits the nail on the head in U of Memphis as the top choice for expansion.

Regardless if the football schools split and regardless if U of Memphis continues to stay at the top of the college basketball world with a new coach, the school has always been the best choice as the 9 football member.

If you do not split, Memphis is a basketball first school that should appease the non playing Big East schools. Once Memphis is admitted, the school would probably not push for a split in the future.

Factor in the Liberty Bowl and nice new market, it would not surprise me to see Memphis come up discussions for Big East expansion during the May meetings in Florida.

If and when the B-10 goes to 12 with ND, Rutgers, Syracuse, Pitt, or a potential B-12 member if they can coax them, and has championship game in December, it could be held in Indianapolis in the dome if the weather is a factor. It is also a center point for the conference for all of the teams and the fans to travel to.

Memphis and a 17 team conference. Build the FB end of the conference while you still have the security net of a superior money making BB program and TV contract. FB 4 home - 4 away. BB 16 game single round robin schedule. Adding one more team to the conference will not hurt the conference financially during the current TV contracts as the payouts to a new team would be minimized by deducting the entrance fee for the new team from those payouts over the first several years. Extend the get out of jail free card for another 5 years and give the option to both factions (FB and BB only's) to leave as a group for free when it comes due again in five years. The BE gains a bowl game (Liberty), potential corporate sponsor (Fed Ex) with Orange Bowl Clout, a good BB program, and a mediocre FB program to take care of the scheduling problem and help with recruiting in SEC territory in the Gulf region.

Personally I would prefer UCF for a USF travel partner and another season ending back yard brawl like WV and Pitt. It would shore up the Florida recruiting territory and help secure better Florida bowls, and UCF is applying for a bowl at there expandable stadium too. I don't think the BE can ignore a 50k student university pumping out a large alumni base every year and I don't think the BE should ignore the Orlando market and bowl season in that area. Finally with UCF in the league the BE teams get a road trip to Florida every year which will help their recruiting in that state. As far as the 17 team conference all that applies to Memphis above applies to UCF except of course the Liberty Bowl, Fed Ex, and the SEC recruiting area. Both schools have great potential for a BE addition. As stated before by Lash and the intial article on this subject, Memphis might be the conference choice as they open a new market in SEC territory and would be less polarizing to the BB schools and USF with their BB potential, Fed Ex sponsorship and the addition of the already established and high paying Liberty Bowl.

Carolinaknight, you make a good point on the Big Ten football championship game could be played in the Indianapolis Dome or another midwest city dome, however, you have to question why there are only a couple bowl games played in cold climates. College conference championship football games are very similar to bowl games and require a lot of travel by the participating fan bases. I guess if the Big 12 had some success with playing the Big 12 championship game in cold Kansas City, the Big Ten could have similar success with attendance in a Midwest city in December,

As for which school would be best fit as the ninth member of the Big East football, you may just flip a coin for Memphis verses Central Florida. Both schools offer a potential bowl site and both bring a fairly good market. You make a very good point on Central Florida benefits of providing a travel partner for USF. This could be the factor to give UCF the edge and it probably comes down to which school can get the most votes of the current 8 football members.

It just appears to be the right time for the current 8 football schools to make a demand to expand for the additional football playing member. I have never bought into the argument that no available school brings any value outside of the current BCS schools for expansion candidates. This is a ridiculous point since a ninth member would provide 8 additional home games in the conference with all revenue remaining with the Big East football schools. You have to figure in most years four of the current additonal 8 OOC games required by having only 7 conference games are most likely going to be played away or worse yet played with FCS schools.

If the schools were to split in 2010 then Memphis may be more safe to make up for some of the lost basketball traditional schools. Otherwise, the odds may just as well favor UCF.

Regardless the Big East football schools need a ninth football member and the time is right to make a move to expand. If the basketball only schools or Notre Dame reject, the decision to split is obvious and is already made for the football schools.

lash · **Posted:** Sat May 16, 2009 2:08 pm

carolinaknights wrote:

lash wrote:

Matt, this is a great article that includes input from many discussions that have taken place on this board over the last several years on the subject of a potential Big East split. There is is not a a board or blog in America that come close to having the same material and collaboration to use for research on benefits of Big East expansion.

The timing of this article is especially intriguing as the upcoming Big East meetings scheduled for Florida should and probably will have this subject at the top of the agenda.

Before I make any predictions on which move the Big East may take, there are a couple observations that should be reviewed along with you nicely written article.

When is enough? Over the years the Big East has expanded with just the minimum number of football members in each expansion exercise. After each expansion the Big East has realigned just to find it has not expanded enough and is venerable yet again to potential raids from other conferences or has additional football needs.

Your pick for Metro as the name of the new conference is a fantastic choice for both marketing benefits and for simplicity should the football schools need to split.

OK when is enough or how many teams do you really need long term for football? The recent Big Ten discussions on expansion provide some very good insight on how many teams you need for football. Unlike the ACC of 2003, the Big Ten has a couple models to review on what works for the size of a football conference. The Big Ten comments are on target as to what works and what does not work in expansion. It is quite obvious by now the SEC worked with expansion to 12 and the ACC did not. Everyone assumes the Big Ten is waiting on Notre Dame and this may be true to some extent, however, the failure of the ACC to succeed in 12 team aligned has a much to do with Big Ten reluctance to expand as any other factor. Not every conference is going to work with 12 members regardless of location. If you factor in the climate of most Big Ten cities, this would be one more barrier to staging a December championship game. The quote from the Big Ten commissioner directly relates to the failure of the ACC and can not be overlooked no matter how much every likes to hype 12 team conference alignment. The ACC has failed in its attempt to expand with 12 team conference and it has nothing to do with the current down trend of U of Miami and FSU football programs. The Big Ten is well aware of this and can use this to discourage any attempts for coaches or schools to push for future Big Ten expansion. Assuming this is true, the Big East is probably not as venerable to raids and some have predicted. It does not change the issues of the need for more football expansion in the Big East.

Since there is no benefit to expand to 12 for both short term and long term, the ideal or correct number is 9 for football. This has always been true and if only the ACC could turn back time.

9 football schools should take care of all the Big East football needs for the long term future.

How do you get to 9 football schools?

The football schools could split and form the new Metro. I don't believe it will come to this because there is only a need for one new football member for both short term and long term future football needs.

There is only one school that has the requirements to satisfy the football schools needs and not alienate the non Big East football schools.

Your article again hits the nail on the head in U of Memphis as the top choice for expansion.

Regardless if the football schools split and regardless if U of Memphis continues to stay at the top of the college basketball world with a new coach, the school has always been the best choice as the 9 football member.

If you do not split, Memphis is a basketball first school that should appease the non playing Big East schools. Once Memphis is admitted, the school would probably not push for a split in the future.

Factor in the Liberty Bowl and nice new market, it would not surprise me to see Memphis come up discussions for Big East expansion during the May meetings in Florida.

If and when the B-10 goes to 12 with ND, Rutgers, Syracuse, Pitt, or a potential B-12 member if they can coax them, and has championship game in December, it could be held in Indianapolis in the dome if the weather is a factor. It is also a center point for the conference for all of the teams and the fans to travel to.

Memphis and a 17 team conference. Build the FB end of the conference while you still have the security net of a superior money making BB program and TV contract. FB 4 home - 4 away. BB 16 game single round robin schedule. Adding one more team to the conference will not hurt the conference financially during the current TV contracts as the payouts to a new team would be minimized by deducting the entrance fee for the new team from those payouts over the first several years. Extend the get out of jail free card for another 5 years and give the option to both factions (FB and BB only's) to leave as a group for free when it comes due again in five years. The BE gains a bowl game (Liberty), potential corporate sponsor (Fed Ex) with Orange Bowl Clout, a good BB program, and a mediocre FB program to take care of the scheduling problem and help with recruiting in SEC territory in the Gulf region.

Personally I would prefer UCF for a USF travel partner and another season ending back yard brawl like WV and Pitt. It would shore up the Florida recruiting territory and help secure better Florida bowls, and UCF is applying for a bowl at there expandable stadium too. I don't think the BE can ignore a 50k student university pumping out a large alumni base every year and I don't think the BE should ignore the Orlando market and bowl season in that area. Finally with UCF in the league the BE teams get a road trip to Florida every year which will help their recruiting in that state. As far as the 17 team conference all that applies to Memphis above applies to UCF except of course the Liberty Bowl, Fed Ex, and the SEC recruiting area. Both schools have great potential for a BE addition. As stated before by Lash and the intial article on this subject, Memphis might be the conference choice as they open a new market in SEC territory and would be less polarizing to the BB schools and USF with their BB potential, Fed Ex sponsorship and the addition of the already established and high paying Liberty Bowl.

Carolinaknight, you make a good point on the Big Ten football championship game could be played in the Indianapolis Dome or another midwest city dome, however, you have to question why there are only a couple bowl games played in cold climates. College conference championship football games are very similar to bowl games and require a lot of travel by the participating fan bases. I guess if the Big 12 had some success with playing the Big 12 championship game in cold Kansas City, the Big Ten could have similar success with attendance in a Midwest city in December,

As for which school would be best fit as the ninth member of the Big East football, you may just flip a coin for Memphis verses Central Florida. Both schools offer a potential bowl site and both bring a fairly good market. You make a very good point on Central Florida benefits of providing a travel partner for USF. This could be the factor to give UCF the edge and it probably comes down to which school can get the most votes of the current 8 football members.

It just appears to be the right time for the current 8 football schools to make a demand to expand for the additional football playing member. I have never bought into the argument that no available school brings any value outside of the current BCS schools for expansion candidates. This is a ridiculous point since a ninth member would provide 8 additional home games in the conference with all revenue remaining with the Big East football schools. You have to figure in most years four of the current additonal 8 OOC games required by having only 7 conference games are most likely going to be played away or worse yet played with FCS schools.

If the schools were to split in 2010 then Memphis may be more safe to make up for some of the lost basketball traditional schools. Otherwise, the odds may just as well favor UCF.

Regardless the Big East football schools need a ninth football member and the time is right to make a move to expand. If the basketball only schools or Notre Dame reject, the decision to split is obvious and is already made for the football schools.

Quinn · **Joined:** Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am **Posts:** 3757

lash wrote:

carolinaknights wrote:

lash wrote:

Matt, this is a great article that includes input from many discussions that have taken place on this board over the last several years on the subject of a potential Big East split. There is is not a a board or blog in America that come close to having the same material and collaboration to use for research on benefits of Big East expansion.

The timing of this article is especially intriguing as the upcoming Big East meetings scheduled for Florida should and probably will have this subject at the top of the agenda.

Before I make any predictions on which move the Big East may take, there are a couple observations that should be reviewed along with you nicely written article.

When is enough? Over the years the Big East has expanded with just the minimum number of football members in each expansion exercise. After each expansion the Big East has realigned just to find it has not expanded enough and is venerable yet again to potential raids from other conferences or has additional football needs.

Your pick for Metro as the name of the new conference is a fantastic choice for both marketing benefits and for simplicity should the football schools need to split.

OK when is enough or how many teams do you really need long term for football? The recent Big Ten discussions on expansion provide some very good insight on how many teams you need for football. Unlike the ACC of 2003, the Big Ten has a couple models to review on what works for the size of a football conference. The Big Ten comments are on target as to what works and what does not work in expansion. It is quite obvious by now the SEC worked with expansion to 12 and the ACC did not. Everyone assumes the Big Ten is waiting on Notre Dame and this may be true to some extent, however, the failure of the ACC to succeed in 12 team aligned has a much to do with Big Ten reluctance to expand as any other factor. Not every conference is going to work with 12 members regardless of location. If you factor in the climate of most Big Ten cities, this would be one more barrier to staging a December championship game. The quote from the Big Ten commissioner directly relates to the failure of the ACC and can not be overlooked no matter how much every likes to hype 12 team conference alignment. The ACC has failed in its attempt to expand with 12 team conference and it has nothing to do with the current down trend of U of Miami and FSU football programs. The Big Ten is well aware of this and can use this to discourage any attempts for coaches or schools to push for future Big Ten expansion. Assuming this is true, the Big East is probably not as venerable to raids and some have predicted. It does not change the issues of the need for more football expansion in the Big East.

Since there is no benefit to expand to 12 for both short term and long term, the ideal or correct number is 9 for football. This has always been true and if only the ACC could turn back time.

9 football schools should take care of all the Big East football needs for the long term future.

How do you get to 9 football schools?

The football schools could split and form the new Metro. I don't believe it will come to this because there is only a need for one new football member for both short term and long term future football needs.

There is only one school that has the requirements to satisfy the football schools needs and not alienate the non Big East football schools.

Your article again hits the nail on the head in U of Memphis as the top choice for expansion.

Regardless if the football schools split and regardless if U of Memphis continues to stay at the top of the college basketball world with a new coach, the school has always been the best choice as the 9 football member.

If you do not split, Memphis is a basketball first school that should appease the non playing Big East schools. Once Memphis is admitted, the school would probably not push for a split in the future.

Factor in the Liberty Bowl and nice new market, it would not surprise me to see Memphis come up discussions for Big East expansion during the May meetings in Florida.

If and when the B-10 goes to 12 with ND, Rutgers, Syracuse, Pitt, or a potential B-12 member if they can coax them, and has championship game in December, it could be held in Indianapolis in the dome if the weather is a factor. It is also a center point for the conference for all of the teams and the fans to travel to.

Memphis and a 17 team conference. Build the FB end of the conference while you still have the security net of a superior money making BB program and TV contract. FB 4 home - 4 away. BB 16 game single round robin schedule. Adding one more team to the conference will not hurt the conference financially during the current TV contracts as the payouts to a new team would be minimized by deducting the entrance fee for the new team from those payouts over the first several years. Extend the get out of jail free card for another 5 years and give the option to both factions (FB and BB only's) to leave as a group for free when it comes due again in five years. The BE gains a bowl game (Liberty), potential corporate sponsor (Fed Ex) with Orange Bowl Clout, a good BB program, and a mediocre FB program to take care of the scheduling problem and help with recruiting in SEC territory in the Gulf region.

Personally I would prefer UCF for a USF travel partner and another season ending back yard brawl like WV and Pitt. It would shore up the Florida recruiting territory and help secure better Florida bowls, and UCF is applying for a bowl at there expandable stadium too. I don't think the BE can ignore a 50k student university pumping out a large alumni base every year and I don't think the BE should ignore the Orlando market and bowl season in that area. Finally with UCF in the league the BE teams get a road trip to Florida every year which will help their recruiting in that state. As far as the 17 team conference all that applies to Memphis above applies to UCF except of course the Liberty Bowl, Fed Ex, and the SEC recruiting area. Both schools have great potential for a BE addition. As stated before by Lash and the intial article on this subject, Memphis might be the conference choice as they open a new market in SEC territory and would be less polarizing to the BB schools and USF with their BB potential, Fed Ex sponsorship and the addition of the already established and high paying Liberty Bowl.

Carolinaknight, you make a good point on the Big Ten football championship game could be played in the Indianapolis Dome or another midwest city dome, however, you have to question why there are only a couple bowl games played in cold climates. College conference championship football games are very similar to bowl games and require a lot of travel by the participating fan bases. I guess if the Big 12 had some success with playing the Big 12 championship game in cold Kansas City, the Big Ten could have similar success with attendance in a Midwest city in December,

As for which school would be best fit as the ninth member of the Big East football, you may just flip a coin for Memphis verses Central Florida. Both schools offer a potential bowl site and both bring a fairly good market. You make a very good point on Central Florida benefits of providing a travel partner for USF. This could be the factor to give UCF the edge and it probably comes down to which school can get the most votes of the current 8 football members.

It just appears to be the right time for the current 8 football schools to make a demand to expand for the additional football playing member. I have never bought into the argument that no available school brings any value outside of the current BCS schools for expansion candidates. This is a ridiculous point since a ninth member would provide 8 additional home games in the conference with all revenue remaining with the Big East football schools. You have to figure in most years four of the current additonal 8 OOC games required by having only 7 conference games are most likely going to be played away or worse yet played with FCS schools.

If the schools were to split in 2010 then Memphis may be more safe to make up for some of the lost basketball traditional schools. Otherwise, the odds may just as well favor UCF.

Regardless the Big East football schools need a ninth football member and the time is right to make a move to expand. If the basketball only schools or Notre Dame reject, the decision to split is obvious and is already made for the football schools.

A few indoor options for the Big Ten to have a nice cycle: Minnesota, Detroit, Indianapolis, St. Louis

westwolf · **Posted:** Tue May 19, 2009 10:20 pm

Thoughts:
1. A 17 team conference is ridiculous
2. The word is vulnerable, not venerable
3. The ACC is laughing all the way to the bank, but you are right that they have not attained athletic success as the result of expansion
4. UCF would be a better choice than Memphis
5. Gilman just won the championship of the premiere high school lacrosse league in America

Quinn · **Joined:** Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am **Posts:** 3757

westwolf wrote:

Thoughts:
1. A 17 team conference is ridiculous
2. The word is vulnerable, not venerable
3. The ACC is laughing all the way to the bank, but you are right that they have not attained athletic success as the result of expansion
4. UCF would be a better choice than Memphis
5. Gilman just won the championship of the premiere high school lacrosse league in America

Howdy westwolf. Go Gillman!

JPSchmack · **Joined:** Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:21 pm **Posts:** 851

Looks like I backed the wrong thread of the two.

I advocate a Big East split. It could be lucrative to each side to split.

Basketball isn't going to willingly leave. If they do, they lose the name. They have no reason to initiate the split, even if they want it. So it's on football to leave. All they need to do to make a split worthwhile is land a basketball TV contract worth $22 million and then they've got no reason to stay. They'd lose nothing and have a chance to improve their scheduling issues, their BCS standing, football TV contract, and maybe add revenue from a Big East Championship Game.

The current basketball TV revenue pot is $32 million per year. Per 16 schools is $2 million each for the old Big East. The markets cover 57 million people in Chicago, Cincinnati, NY/NJ, Philly, Pitt, Prov, Tampa, Washington, Milwaukee, CT, WV, Syracuse and Louisville.

Let's say you have an 11-team conference: UConn, Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt, West Virginia, Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis, USF, UCF, Notre Dame (FB Indep).

Their new footprint would have 45 million people:
Syracuse/NYC/NJ/CT (UConn, SU, Rutgers)
Chicago (Notre Dame)
plus Memphis, Cincinnati, Louisville, Pittsburgh, West Virginia,
Orlando and Tampa.

And a plethora of good games. While they lose some rivals, only those games featuring two of UCF/USF/Rutgers are really not interesting games.

With a 16-game schedule, you've got home and home with six teams to double-up on good TV matchups (when you had three home and home series in the 16-team Big East).

While the schedule goes from 288 games to either 176 (16 game sched) or 198 (18 games), there's only so many time slots you could put on TV anyway.

A $22 million contract is extremely reasonable. You're really only losing Georgetown/Nova and Marquette for TV purposes.

For the basketball side if football leaves; a nine-team conference would only need a TV deal of $18 million to break even in a split.

Add Dayton and Xavier and you're looking at 46 million people market share (NY/NJ, Chicago, Philly, Washington, Providence, Milwaukee, Southwest Ohio).

Their biggest problem might be marquee games, by losing Syracuse and UConn vs Georgetown and Nova.

They could get their market share up to 50 million by adding Saint Louis, Butler and Richmond, which would also lower travel costs. But then they'd need a $24 million TV deal, and you'd lose six games of Marquette vs the east, another six from Xavier vs the East because a 12-team league has a double-round with your division

So nine is probably their best option.

The logical terms of the split would be:
Football leaves penalty free as a group, taking all their earned NCAA Tournament revenues.
Basketball gets the Big East name
Football gets MSG for their basketball tourney.
A non-conference scheduling agreement between the two sides is formed, including a basketball tournament/showcase in MSG in Nov/Dec.

lash · **Posted:** Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:44 pm

JPSchmack wrote:

Looks like I backed the wrong thread of the two.

I advocate a Big East split. It could be lucrative to each side to split.

Basketball isn't going to willingly leave. If they do, they lose the name. They have no reason to initiate the split, even if they want it. So it's on football to leave. All they need to do to make a split worthwhile is land a basketball TV contract worth $22 million and then they've got no reason to stay. They'd lose nothing and have a chance to improve their scheduling issues, their BCS standing, football TV contract, and maybe add revenue from a Big East Championship Game.

The current basketball TV revenue pot is $32 million per year. Per 16 schools is $2 million each for the old Big East. The markets cover 57 million people in Chicago, Cincinnati, NY/NJ, Philly, Pitt, Prov, Tampa, Washington, Milwaukee, CT, WV, Syracuse and Louisville.

Let's say you have an 11-team conference: UConn, Syracuse, Rutgers, Pitt, West Virginia, Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis, USF, UCF, Notre Dame (FB Indep).

Their new footprint would have 45 million people:
Syracuse/NYC/NJ/CT (UConn, SU, Rutgers)
Chicago (Notre Dame)
plus Memphis, Cincinnati, Louisville, Pittsburgh, West Virginia,
Orlando and Tampa.

And a plethora of good games. While they lose some rivals, only those games featuring two of UCF/USF/Rutgers are really not interesting games.

With a 16-game schedule, you've got home and home with six teams to double-up on good TV matchups (when you had three home and home series in the 16-team Big East).

While the schedule goes from 288 games to either 176 (16 game sched) or 198 (18 games), there's only so many time slots you could put on TV anyway.

A $22 million contract is extremely reasonable. You're really only losing Georgetown/Nova and Marquette for TV purposes.

For the basketball side if football leaves; a nine-team conference would only need a TV deal of $18 million to break even in a split.

Add Dayton and Xavier and you're looking at 46 million people market share (NY/NJ, Chicago, Philly, Washington, Providence, Milwaukee, Southwest Ohio).

Their biggest problem might be marquee games, by losing Syracuse and UConn vs Georgetown and Nova.

They could get their market share up to 50 million by adding Saint Louis, Butler and Richmond, which would also lower travel costs. But then they'd need a $24 million TV deal, and you'd lose six games of Marquette vs the east, another six from Xavier vs the East because a 12-team league has a double-round with your division

So nine is probably their best option.

The logical terms of the split would be:
Football leaves penalty free as a group, taking all their earned NCAA Tournament revenues.
Basketball gets the Big East name
Football gets MSG for their basketball tourney.
A non-conference scheduling agreement between the two sides is formed, including a basketball tournament/showcase in MSG in Nov/Dec.

JPSchmack,
I have never been a fan of creating a new 12 member Big East hybrid league using Notre Dame as a football independent and other non playing football schools (i.e. Georgetown/Villanova), however, creating a hybrid of Notre Dame and 11 other all sports members playing football would have many advantages. The argument to expand with a ninth football member has always been to create balanced schedules for football If you expand to 10 members, you have unbalanced schedules of 4 and 5 unbalanced home and away games or the alternative is to have all teams not playing each other each season with 8 conference games. This has a lot of issues in selecting the conference champion without the benefit of having a football championship game. In the hybrid scenario of Notre Dame and 11 football playing schools, Notre Dame is basically a place holder until the school moves to the Big Ten or finally decides to join Big East football and create a Big East football championship game. In the short term. the Big East could have all 11 football members play round robin football for a total of 10 conference games with 5 home and 5 away. Since the Big East does not have the stadium size of a lot of SEC and Big Ten schools that can afford to have FBS teams play home games only in their stadiums with no return games, the Big East schools would only have to schedule 2 OOC games per year. This schedule would work and provide Big East football members a chance to improve and expand stadiums in the future to offset the competition with other BCS schools that have much larger stadiums that benefit OOC scheduling scenarios..

If the Big Ten eventually expands with Rutgers or Syracuse the Big East could then replace one of those schools with a school from the east. If Syracuse is selected replace that school with the U of Buffalo to retain some of of the New York market. If Rutgers is selected for the Big Ten, then expand a take back Temple to off set the loss of the New Jersey eastern PA markets.

The other three schools would appear to be a fairly easy choice of taking Memphis, UCF, and East Carolina. All three have been mentioned as a possible Big East expansion school in the past.

If Notre Dame finally decides to bolt for the Big Ten which is my prediction of the future, then the Big East could use the current 11 football members and split into geographical divisions and look for one more school most likely a northern school to balance out geographical divisions. Hopefully by the time Notre Dame and the Big Ten finally decide to make it 12, Temple will have improved enough to make a good selection as a north division school.

The conference could then spit into a north division of Syracuse, Rutgers, UConn, West Virginia, Pitt, Temple and the south could have Cincinnati, Louisville, Memphis, East Carolina, UCF, and USF.

Everyone always assumes expanding with Conf USA schools make the Big East more like Conf USA, however, if Conf USA suddenly had a BCS automatic bid the perception would change overnight for that league.

This alignment would be the best possible solution for the Big East football schools to work toward an eventual 12 team alignment. Basketball would remain as good as the current Big East if Temple is included in the mix along with the addition of Memphis.

It is probably just a matter of time before the Big Ten and Pac 10 expand to 12 and the Big East would almost have to split and expand to 12 to ensure BCS membership is retained for the long term future.

Why not just split by 2010 and be prepared for what is the inevitable and finally take care of football needs first. This is the BCS and football is key to a BCS league.

sec03 · **Joined:** Sat May 20, 2006 2:09 pm **Posts:** 1231

Lash, JPS, CarolinaKinght, et. al., good discussion points.

My sentiment has been all-sports arrangements, thus a split. However, I do not dismiss the mini-hybrid as a potential option. I believe PantherSC used the term mini-hybrid in an interesting post.

To have a mini-hybrid though, would require a split. I don't see the Big East involuntarily releasing four bb institutions, for example, to reach it.

Suppose there would be a future split. The existing fb schools add, say UCF, for that 9th program. They add Villanova and Georgetown for markets and further bb depth. Notre Dame is added for whatever minimum fb games with the others that are contracted.

With this 12 member conference, it recognizes ALL members of this new BE conference play football as a sport, but G' town and Nova reside in a lower division and conference for fb. While bringing along Notre Dame who continues not to play conference fb, it could set up some contractual conditions related to fb that ND must comply with to have the affiliation for the other sports. This didn't happen when ND became a member of the current BE.

It does send a message that "fb" as a sport, exists for all conference members. This would have some psychological and identity power. It also allows the fb element to be flexible enough to further expand/adjust/tweak without equitable or more powerful bb interests.

The result would be better fb with future options, and bb and other sports would not suffer; actually may be stronger, immediately and for the future.

lash · **Posted:** Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:51 am

Sec03,
Most of the post on this board and other sports boards are more about what direction fans including myself want the Big East to take and do not actually analyze the views of the 16 Big East School Presidents.

PantherSC97 is probably the most practical person which believe the Big East will do basically nothing concerning a split. I tend to agree with him with one exception. I do not believe the Big East can ignore the fact of adding a ninth football member to balance schedules and place the Big East in a better position with the other five BCS conferences with 4 or 3 OOC games scheduled each year.

I think there are some myths that need to be address about the current situation to provide a good analysis of what the Big East Presidents may be thinking about a split.

Are the football schools (Big East Presidents) unhappy in the current league and can't move because a couple of those Presidents want to remain with the Big East? I disagree with this because the football schools could have left by now. I believe this a myth and each of the current 8 Big East football school Presidents would prefer to be in the Big East over a split into a new league. I do believe any of the 8 would not push back on moving to one of the five BCS league if an offer is provided for membership. The bottom line is the current Big East is better than a split especially if you do not have any plans to expand to 12 football members. It is called stability and the Big East Presidents see more stability in the current league over splitting. Otherwise a split would have already occurred. It is what it is!

This leads into the second myth. Do all conferences (including the Big East Presidents) want to be a 12 team league with the ability to play a football championship game. I believe the lack of success of Conf USA, MAC and to great extend the ACC has made this dream less appealing. Everyone can disagree if they prefer, however, the Big Ten is not expanding, the Pac 10 is not expanding, and to what we know the Big East is not splitting to expand to 12. Only the SEC has really made this alignment a true success story. The Big 12 has balance issues between north and south schools that could someday pull that league apart if Nebraska does not return to the old hey day success in football. Could it be that 12 team conferences playing a football championship are not what its cracked up to be. Otherwise would not the Big Ten be jumping all over this. Again it is what it is!

I personally would prefer a split and place like schools together in the same conference, however, do not get a vote on the issue and neither do any others on this board including Matt.

My prediction of the direction the Big East Presidents will take is eventually decide to expand to 17 schools.

Memphis may have shot itself in the foot with the Calipari mess and may not be as desirable as in the past.

Central Florida probably has the most benefits for becoming the ninth member.

There are are others if the Big East can be patient and wait a little longer which may just be what the Big East Presidents are acually doing and not just sitting around waiting for some big implosion.

UMass has always been a very good long term expansion candidate that could be in position to move to FBS when the economy improves.

Fordham is a fun pick and could play football games in the new Yankee stadium very close to campus. They may have to play most home games after baseball season ended. This could work and Fordham probably has more alumni living in NY city that just about any other school. I brought up Fordham several months ago in a post and they are adding scholarships for football. Who knows what may happen in this situation. It is a fun pick for Big East membership.

There is always U of Buffalo which has very good academics and could provide a natural travel friendly rival for Syracuse.

There is something keeping the Big East from picking a much needed ninth football school for now. Maybe some of the above comments are what the Big East Presidents are waiting to see what happens in the future before just picking some random based southern school.

This is what everyone should be analyzing and not if a split is going to occur or the Big Ten is going to cherry pick another school. We all know that would be a major benefit to the Big East. Notre Dame has and will always be the only valid Big Ten candidate. The Big Ten commissioner is on record stating the conference will not expand for just markets. That rules out Rutgers and Syracuse unless those two schools can make and actually win a BCS bowl game would be my guess. Remember the Big Ten last expanded with Penn State which was actually good in football in those days.

This post may not be the most popular to everyone that would like to see the Big East split, however, do believe it is closer to the opinions of the current Big East Presidents which is all that really matters when it comes to future decisions of the Big East.

BIG EAST: To Split or Not to Split (on CSI News)

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