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 Post subject: Former 1-A Conferences
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:48 am 
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As we all know, the WAC will be able to invite members to FBS even if they fail to meet the NCAA definition of FBS conference thanks to the new rules that allow former 1-A/FBS conferences to invite members to FBS.

My question is would this apply to the Southern, Southland, and the Ivy League as well since all 3 of those conferences used to be 1-A/FBS. If so, than a lot of these potential Eastern Schools could upgrade under the Southern Conference Banner once they are ready w/o any major problems (i.e. App St, James Madison, Charlotte, ODU, Ga Southern, Ga St. etc.)

Are there any other conferences that used to be FBS/1-A that are currently active?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:54 am 
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Big West and the original Missouri Valley Conference (not the current MVC Football Conference) were also previously 1-A conferences.

But the question remains, if the WAC gets to invite teams as a previous FBS conference, does the same rule not apply to these former FBS conferences?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:16 pm 
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accseahawk wrote:
Big West and the original Missouri Valley Conference (not the current MVC Football Conference) were also previously 1-A conferences.

But the question remains, if the WAC gets to invite teams as a previous FBS conference, does the same rule not apply to these former FBS conferences?


Funny to think that had the MWC not been an option for Hawaii, and if Cal Poly, UC Davis, and Big Sky member Sac St. had considered an upgrade, the Big West could have pulled a coup with re-sponsoring football and beating out the WAC. It would have meant a real big conference though with new additions SJSU, Hawaii, Sac St and Idaho (former BW member):

* Cal Poly
Cal State Fullerton
Cal State Northridge
Long Beach State
Pacific
* UC Davis
UC Irvine
UC Riverside
UC Santa Barbara
* SJSU
* Sac St
* Hawaii
* Idaho
* NMSU


Just a shame that there is so little FBS or even FCS football out west. There were movements at Santa Clara, LBSU and even Fullerton and Northridge, but nothing happened. I've always thought UCSB would be perfect too...a tight community with SB, Goleta, etc, a 21k student enrollment.

Oh well.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:36 pm 
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I definitely think the NCAA would not like this interpretation very much. The definition of an FBS Conference was not created until August 2002. So, I bet their argument would be that a conference could not have met the definition of an FBS Conference before August 2002 since the definition was not even created yet. And as of August 2002 the only conferences who met the FBS Definition are the current FBS Conferences.

However, a broad interpretation of the rules, and due to the fact that the NCAA was adamant that 1-A and FBS was merely a cosmetic change, would allow the Ivy, MVC, Southern, Southland, and Big West to issue FBS invitations because, unless I am mistaken, at one time they met the definition of an FBS/1-A Conference, which is a conference with 8 full (allsports) FBS/Division 1-A members sponsoring the minimum number of men's and women's sports (6 and 8 respectively)

What do you think Quinn? Am I right?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:42 pm 
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Quinn wrote:
accseahawk wrote:
Big West and the original Missouri Valley Conference (not the current MVC Football Conference) were also previously 1-A conferences.

But the question remains, if the WAC gets to invite teams as a previous FBS conference, does the same rule not apply to these former FBS conferences?


Funny to think that had the MWC not been an option for Hawaii, and if Cal Poly, UC Davis, and Big Sky member Sac St. had considered an upgrade, the Big West could have pulled a coup with re-sponsoring football and beating out the WAC. It would have meant a real big conference though with new additions SJSU, Hawaii, Sac St and Idaho (former BW member):

* Cal Poly
Cal State Fullerton
Cal State Northridge
Long Beach State
Pacific
* UC Davis
UC Irvine
UC Riverside
UC Santa Barbara
* SJSU
* Sac St
* Hawaii
* Idaho
* NMSU


Just a shame that there is so little FBS or even FCS football out west. There were movements at Santa Clara, LBSU and even Fullerton and Northridge, but nothing happened. I've always thought UCSB would be perfect too...a tight community with SB, Goleta, etc, a 21k student enrollment.

Oh well.


Glad to see Quinn and I do agree on something, FCS football! I posted a thread about the need for another FCS Western conference (though I think Quinn is more ambitious than I, looks like an FBS conference). I too thought the Big West would be an ideal conference to do this.

Then the Big Sky could grab the remaining Dakota schools and form a solid northern conference which maybe one day could move up as well.

Too add to this, I'd like to see a non scholarship conference out west. It would be for all the schools looking to add football now or in the past, but don't want to add all the scholarships. Then one day it could consider some scholarships. I'd say have the WCC and Big West combine efforts here.

That would be LBSU, CSUF, CSUN, Pacific, UCSB, UCSD from the Big West and USD, St. Mary's, Santa Clara from the WCC and whoever else wanted to add football.



But we've hijacked this thread. As to your question, I'm not sure what you're getting at. These conferences are free to add whomever they'd like. And as far as I know a conference can upgrade en masse if they choose, but none of them want to do so.

I don't think the Southern Conference is allowed to just say, we're moving back up after so long. The WAC is sort of in a limbo stage from what I have read. I don't believe they have an unlimited amount of time to get back to FBS level. I think as of now, in 2012 they will be neither FBS nor FCS.

Quinn might be able to better elaborate on your question.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:03 pm 
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thanks for your reply sjsufan

per the new requirements to upgrade to FBS football, an institution must have an invitation from a FBS conference or a conference that "previously met the defintion of a FBS conference"

The last part was added to allow the WAC to rebuild if they cease meeting the FBS Conference requirements

My question is did the Ivy, Southland, Southern, Big West, MVC previously meet the definition of an FBS Conference, because if so then the NCAA would have to give them the same rights as the WAC

The definition of an FBS Conference is a conference with 8 full (allsports) FBS members sponsoring the minimum number of men's and women's sports (6 and 8 respectively)


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:53 pm 
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accseahawk wrote:
thanks for your reply sjsufan

per the new requirements to upgrade to FBS football, an institution must have an invitation from a FBS conference or a conference that "previously met the defintion of a FBS conference"

The last part was added to allow the WAC to rebuild if they cease meeting the FBS Conference requirements

My question is did the Ivy, Southland, Southern, Big West, MVC previously meet the definition of an FBS Conference, because if so then the NCAA would have to give them the same rights as the WAC

The definition of an FBS Conference is a conference with 8 full (allsports) FBS members sponsoring the minimum number of men's and women's sports (6 and 8 respectively)


It's definitely an interesting thought and your argument is completely logical. Not sure if any of those conferences want to move up but certainly down the road they could consider it. Obviously no worries with the Ivy, Big West, and MVC and it seems most of the Southland is being absorbed by the WAC with the most of the remaining schools no where near FBS level. So that would leave the Southern. There are definitely a few of those schools that may consider moving up, but I highly doubt they as a whole would want to move.

My question would be, does 1-A=FBS? And if a conference stopped sponsoring football, could they bring it back and still be a former 1-A/FBS conference, or are they now considered a new conference? But like you said, the NCAA would not like this very much.

And again, what difference does it make? I assume a conference can try to move up as a whole (as many suggest the MVFC or the Big Sky do just that). So I would figure if any conference wanted to move up, they would just do so.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:16 pm 
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SJSUFan2010 wrote:
accseahawk wrote:
thanks for your reply sjsufan

per the new requirements to upgrade to FBS football, an institution must have an invitation from a FBS conference or a conference that "previously met the defintion of a FBS conference"

The last part was added to allow the WAC to rebuild if they cease meeting the FBS Conference requirements

My question is did the Ivy, Southland, Southern, Big West, MVC previously meet the definition of an FBS Conference, because if so then the NCAA would have to give them the same rights as the WAC

The definition of an FBS Conference is a conference with 8 full (allsports) FBS members sponsoring the minimum number of men's and women's sports (6 and 8 respectively)


It's definitely an interesting thought and your argument is completely logical. Not sure if any of those conferences want to move up but certainly down the road they could consider it. Obviously no worries with the Ivy, Big West, and MVC and it seems most of the Southland is being absorbed by the WAC with the most of the remaining schools no where near FBS level. So that would leave the Southern. There are definitely a few of those schools that may consider moving up, but I highly doubt they as a whole would want to move.

My question would be, does 1-A=FBS? And if a conference stopped sponsoring football, could they bring it back and still be a former 1-A/FBS conference, or are they now considered a new conference? But like you said, the NCAA would not like this very much.

And again, what difference does it make? I assume a conference can try to move up as a whole (as many suggest the MVFC or the Big Sky do just that). So I would figure if any conference wanted to move up, they would just do so.


When the FBS name was phased in and 1-A phased out...the NCAA made sure to remind everyone it was just a cosmetic change in order to market FCS better, so in my mind 1-A and FBS are interchangeable.

To answer your second question I believe the answer is yes. If the WAC falls below 8 all sports FBS members, then in the eyes of the NCAA they have stopped sponsoring FBS football, just like the Big West. It does not matter if they have 7 schools still fielding a FBS football team while the Big West has 0, neither school is an active FBS conference. BUT IMO due to the way the rule is written both have the option to reinstate FBS football and accept FCS upgrades if they so choose.

I think there would be a big battle if a conference wanted to move up to FBS as a whole, because the way the rule is written, at least how I interpret it, that is not possible. If my broad interpretation of "previously met the definition" were to fly than a lot of these eastern FCS schools who wanted to upgrade could do so under the Southern Conference banner. App. St, GA Southern, Ga St, ODU, JMU, and Charlotte are always named tossed around about wanting to upgrade but not having a logical conference to do so. The Southern Conference could use the loophole and become a 2nd tier Eastern FBS conference if enough schools were interested.

This is why I am most interested in the rule as it would allow a lot of schools in my area to have a logical place to call home w/o having to join a jumbled mess if they wanted to upgrade.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:16 pm 
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I emailed the Southern Conference Commissioner hoping to get some clarification since I figured he would have more solid information on the matter than the average person.

Here is our exchange:

To: John Iamarino
Subject: Upgrading to FBS

Commissioner Iamario

As you are aware, new NCAA rule 20.4.2.1.1 on page 275 (http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/AMA/legislative_...ements.pdf) allows for a Conference that previously met the definition of an FBS conference to issue an invitation to an institution interested in upgrading to FBS. My question is that since the Southern Conference was a 1-A/FBS Conference in the early 80's, would that ability to extend invitations apply to the Southern Conference and would a school like Appalachian State be able to upgrade without having to leave the Southern Conference?

Thank you,

HIS RESPONSE

Thank you for your interest in the Southern Conference. The legislation you refer to deals specifically with conferences that were established – and named -- as FBS conferences (I-A at the time) when the NCAA reorganized its governance structure in 1998. If one of them falls below the minimum standards for the subdivision, it has two years to get itself “whole” and that process would allow invitations to FCS institutions.



As recently as last month, it was reiterated by the NCAA staff that current FCS conferences are not permitted to move to the FBS as a group. FCS institutions may move to the FBS only with an invitation from a current FBS conference that meets all subdivision standards, or one that is in the temporary condition I described in the paragraph above.



I hope this answer is helpful to you.



John P. Iamarino

Commissioner

Southern Conference


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:59 pm 
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I guess we'll need the MAC to expand to 16 and split into two conferences:

MAC
North Dakota State, South Dakota State, Wichita State, Missouri State, Illinois State, Southern Illinois
Northern Illinois, Ball State, Western Michigan, Eastern Michigan, Bowling Green, Kent State

NEW
Central Michigan, Toledo, Akron, Ohio, Miami, Buffalo
Temple, UMass, Georgia State, Charlotte, James Madison, Old Dominion

The Missouri Valley would probably invite some combination of St. Louis, Butler, North Dakota, South Dakota, Xavier, and Dayton.

The CAA would probably only add one, Stony Brook, who is in search of a more suitable football home.

The Atlantic 10 would probably not add anyone unless if it fell below 8 schools.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:53 pm 
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This could be rather timely given the difficult prognosis for the Big East.

If the Big East can hold the line on the 27-month advance notice, which in this case would mean the 2014-15 academic year, it could essentially guarantee that there are still 11 FBS conferences.

If the Big East invites Villanova, Towson, Delaware, Georgia State, Old Domion, and James Madison to upgrade in football, they would play the '12 season transitioning and counting as FCS for scheduling purposes. They could even join the Big East in '13 but would not be eligible for the conference title or postseason play. In '14 they would be fully eligible as FBS schools. The Big East could also invite Charlotte, but they would probably have to be a year behind everyone in the transition process since their program doesn't begin until '13. Invite Temple and UMass from the MAC in time for '14 and you have an FBS conference.

The new look Big East will have delivered huge blows to the Atlantic 10 and CAA, AND guaranteed all of its current football members a soft landing:

Big East
Football (9) - Villanova, Temple, UMass, Towson, Delaware, James Madison, Old Dominion, Charlotte (postseason eligible in 2015), Georgia State
Non-Football (7) - Notre Dame, St. John's, Seton Hall, Providence, Georgetown, Marquette, DePaul

CAA (7)
Northeastern, Hofstra, Drexel, George Mason, William & Mary, VCU, UNC-Wilmington

Atlantic 10 (11)
St. Louis, Xavier, Dayton, Duquesne, St. Bonaventure, Richmond, George Washington, St. Joseph's, La Salle, Fordham, Rhode Island

Big 12 (10+)
Louisville, Cincinnati, South Florida, Central Florida, Iowa State, Baylor, TCU, Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri/West Virginia

The Big East essentially wipes out one of the better mid-major confernces, especially if the A-10 decides to square up at 12 or 14 schools with some combination of VCU, George Mason, and Drexel.


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