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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:28 pm 
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Tk, you'll never get the last word w/ Quinn, I've tried :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:03 pm 
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I agree with everything he said but disagree about their forward thinking on expansion they left "more money than the entire Big East" (or something like that on my phone so hard to quote) on the table for 20 years, add that up and it's pathetic...B1G as a conference is great the members work together well because they have the same goals and the BTN is a huge success for them however if you think they will invite others into that club that could disrupt it's perfectness then you're wrong. They left money just sitting out there for years and I bet they will leave plenty more out there in the future. Thus, going back to my original point, I doubt they expand and I doubt they have every option on the table next time around. The B1G is going to get less and less appealing after the other four pass it by in TV revenue/relevance and their rust belt population continues to decline while the coasts and South continues to grow. They need to at least get a foothold in some better markets now (Mizzou/Rutgers) to have a chance at attracting anything more than Kansas/Pitt in the future since Maryland/BC/Cuse/ND will be very happy in their East Coast League.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:26 pm 
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I think the Big Ten can sit idly by and cherry pick whomever they want.

First, they'd get an increase in revenue from cable companies moving BTN in the two new markets from the Sports Premium package to the basic digital cable package (Not BASIC CABLE, but the basic digital cable package).

Then they simply up their carriage fee a penny or two.


What was the magic number? $47 million per year?

If the BTN upped their carriage fee by one nickel, it would account for $43.8 million in revenue, without adding a single new customer, or having any market move BTN up a tier.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:38 am 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
Tk, you'll never get the last word w/ Quinn, I've tried :lol:


Not at all. I respect everyone's opinions. But in my mind, the Big Ten has been an absolute model for how to do it right in the world of sports business. It's why they are so heavily respected in that regard. It's why people such as yourself will include ACC schools on the list of schools the Big Ten might actually be able to get. That's Big 12, Big East and ACC schools form bCS conferences that many here feel would jump to the Big Ten. And the Big Ten also has schools that we can assume that every conference would take if they had a chance...meaning Pac-12 would take Nebraska yesterday, SEC would take Ohio St., etc, yesterday. But the fact that the Big Ten could even have a shot at schools from 3 BCS conferences is telling to their business prowess. Much like it is for the SEC, the strongest football conference with the past 5 champions.

So if someone has the opinion that all the items that are important in my mind from a business perspective, that's fine. College sports can be viewed on many different levels. But the business of college sports is my primary focus and why this site exists in the format it does (because there weren't many fan sites that placed an emphasis on college sports business as opposed to general fandom). And besides, the more logical discussion with different opinions, the better the discussions are here...and that is what is appreciated.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:12 am 
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tkalmus wrote:
I agree with everything he said but disagree about their forward thinking on expansion they left "more money than the entire Big East" (or something like that on my phone so hard to quote) on the table for 20 years, add that up and it's pathetic...B1G as a conference is great the members work together well because they have the same goals and the BTN is a huge success for them however if you think they will invite others into that club that could disrupt it's perfectness then you're wrong. They left money just sitting out there for years and I bet they will leave plenty more out there in the future. Thus, going back to my original point, I doubt they expand and I doubt they have every option on the table next time around. The B1G is going to get less and less appealing after the other four pass it by in TV revenue/relevance and their rust belt population continues to decline while the coasts and South continues to grow. They need to at least get a foothold in some better markets now (Mizzou/Rutgers) to have a chance at attracting anything more than Kansas/Pitt in the future since Maryland/BC/Cuse/ND will be very happy in their East Coast League.


What I meant was that there is the natural progress in the business model that you need to consider. For instance, imagine a world where google and Bing are close in market share, but google still about 10% higher than Bing. Now imagine Bing makes 2-4 acquisitions to cut that share to 5% or even match the 10% to make things even. In the world of business, it is then set in stone. The newly added businesses to Bing are Bings forever.

But in college sports with conferences, that isn't the case. Nothing is set in stone.

And there is also the standard valuation of the business product. The reason conferences get certain TV deals of late, as we know, is due to the timing of the contracts. For instance, the ACC got a huge bump and passed many conferences like the big 12 and Pac-10. but it wasn't that they were valued more, it was a matter of contract timing. So then the Pac-12 leapfrogged everyone else because their contract was up...the same Pac-12 that has none of the population rich eastern markets, the same Pac-12 that is 100% a western league that expanded east by adding Utah and Colorado in the mountain time zone.

Now the same standard scale will apply to all conferences in terms of their value.

What you are saying is that above is that the Big Ten NEEDS to add schools in order to improve their value...and that if the Big Ten does not, other conferences will permanently pass the Big Ten in terms of TV network VALUE. But the Big Ten's value in it's current form will grow with the fluctuations in the growth of the value of the sport. Meaning, the Big Ten will still improve in value as the sport improves in value. And it is an absolute lock that when the Big Ten contract is up for renewal with the networks, that if they do nothing, the industry trends will continue for the Big Ten as well.

We can look at the Pac-12 for data. The financial analysis of expansion for the Pac-12 said one thing...for about 20 years: for the Pac-12 to improve their per school payout BEYOND the natural growth for the industry, they needed to add Denver (via Colorado) and Texas. But the value of Texas was so great, such a game changer, that it enabled them to include 4 other schools that would get Texas to come (or course Oklahoma provided it's own value as well...but based on the decision to remain at 12 without Oklahoma, it would appear they weren't enough to tip the scale).

So for the Pac-12..and the Big Ten in the future...or any other BCS conference there is an easy way to look at it from a business perspective:

Think of the current BCS conferences as being made of gold. And 10 years ago silver was valued at $1. But 10 years later, the value of silver has changed to $10. So all the conferences are worth more as they are (as we've seen from TV contracts). Look at the Big East. They haven't done much. They are still the worst of the BCS conferences, yet they turned down a 1.4 billion deal, a hUGE improvement, despite not doing much of anything. They turned that down because in adding what they seem as a piece of gold to their portfolio, they could get more. but even without TCU, the Big East TV contract would have grown without TCU compared to their last contract.

Back to the Pac-12. That is a conference that in it's current form was made of 50% silver and 50% gold. Their value was set. And analysts feel that in adding Utah and Colorado, the Pac-12, despite it's huge payday, could have gotten more money per school had they remained at 10, as Colorado and Utah were more like adding a good piece of silver and a piece of bronze.

And then there is the Big Ten. They are comprised of 50% gold and 50% platinum, as dictated by their high revenue Tv contract even before Nebraska was added. Nebraska was the piece of platinum to improve the conference value...also adding the 1 item each conference needs to take advantage of a quick payday: a 12th member needed to have a championship game.

But even without Nebraska, the Big Ten value was continued to grow in relation to other conferences. It comes down to WHAT a conference adds to improve it's valuation to improve the "purity". Adding platinum schools helps, gold a benefit, silver a push in some cases.

so it's a long explanation, so you all have my apologies, but it's a simple as this:

A conference's value will not depreciate as long as the existing members maintain their current worth. And that isn't an on-the-field issue. Michigan can struggle for more years to come, and still be considered a top financial program. Ohio St. went through a huge scandal but is still considered one of, if not the most, valuable program in the country.

So when other conferences make a move, it certainly helps them. But for some conferences, the natural growth of the industry valuation of the conferences is a benefit enough for them. Think about it...if Rutgers were such a homerun of a financial improvement for the Big Ten, why did the ACC pass on them twice last week? If Missouri is such a homerun in growth of revenue per school, why did the big Ten pass on them this year and why did the SEC take such a passive role with them (and TAMU) when all the other conferences have had no problems just bringing in who they want without fear of legal issues (P16 last year, P16 this year, ACc this year, etc).


And I agree about the Big Ten leaving money out there. But from a business perspective, it's not always about the short term. Yes, the Big Ten passed on a championship game for many years...easy money. But in the long term, it might not have been about passing on that championship game money, but making sure that they were only adding pieces that would survive for decades to come without depreciating the value of the conference. So sure, maybe with rutgers, Missouri there is more money right away. But if adding those two schools were to slow the momentum of the revenue growth after the initial bump (like a company with a hot press release giving it's stock a price bump) onyl to have it drop to below where it was in relation to it's competitors a few years later (when the heat wears off), then perhaps it's not worth it.


And other than ACC schools like Maryland, etc, getting the aging Big Ten region into regions where more americans are moving to, perhaps from a business perspective, no move is a good move; maintaining the Big ten value in the conference value ratings might be more important for long term growth...since the big Ten will continue to be valued more just by being the Big Ten and offering what they offer now.

i don't think we disagree about much. I just think I am focusing on the long term sustainability in regards to the financial value of conferences and the natural improvement of value based on the industry trends.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:58 am 
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hearing that Rutgers is putting out general feelers to Big Ten. At least its not as blatant as ECU applying formally to the Big East. With the P12 hold on expanding, it would appear that the Notre Dame consideration of joining a conference like the Big Ten (Rutgers a potential #14) is dead too since ND has no need to move...and ACC likely a better option for them (can win, recruit, NE market access).

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:23 pm 
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It is possible that Notre Dame to the B1G is closer than people realize. Over on the hockey side of things, Notre Dame is now a national player and they won't have a conference since the CCHA membership is being split among the B1G, the NCHC and the WCHA.
The NCHC is going to add Western Michigan and St. Cloud State, which puts their numbers at 8 ( a very workable number). Irish hockey has two landing places - the NCHC and the B1G - because there is no way they'd consider the WCHA. The B1G will not have an associate member for hockey
only, so that's where I think they're going. They could have made a decision about the NCHC when it was formed, but they didn't, so ND comes into the B1G with either Missouri or Rutgers.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:47 pm 
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Civilrat -

I think you are correct. the B1G and Delany, do NOT like to do their negotiating in front of the media.

Due to the delays in Notre Dame's hockey alignment (dating back to July), I can only think some discussions with the B1G may have been going on back then
(which was even prior to the TA&M situation exploding).

Maybe Notre Dame was angling for an associate membership in the BTHC. That all seems to make sense in the context of the timing.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:09 pm 
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tkalmus wrote:
The B1G is going to get less and less appealing after the other four pass it by in TV revenue/relevance and their rust belt population continues to decline while the coasts and South continues to grow.


So, are these just guesses, or did you do some actual research?

Regarding population, the "Rust Belt" isn't declining in population. Between the last two U.S. censuses (2000 and 2010), states in the Big Ten grew by almost 2.5 million people.

Regarding television revenue, the Big Ten is currently number 2, behind the Pac-12 and its new television contract. Here is how it breaks down among the BCS conferences:

1) Pac-12 - $250,000,000 per year for Tier 1 and Tier 2 rights
2) Big Ten - $212,000,000 per year for Tier 1 and Tier 2 rights
3) SEC - $205,000,000 per year for Tier 1 and Tier 2 rights
4) ACC- $155,000,000 per year for Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3 rights
5) Big 12 - $150,000,000 per year for Tier 1 and Tier 2 rights
6) Big East - $42,333,333 per year for Tier 1 and Tier 2 rights

So, when do their current contracts for Tier 1 rights expire?:

Big East - 2011-12
Big 12 - 2015-16
Big Ten - 2015-16
ACC - 2022-23
SEC - 2023-24
Pac-12 - 2023-24

The Big East's contract, obviously ends pretty soon. But, will a weakened Big East, already making far less than the Big Ten, surpass the Big Ten? Nope.

The Big 12's contract ends in a few years. But like the Big East, will a weakened Big 12, which is also making far less than the Big Ten, surpass the Big Ten? Nope.

The Big Ten's contract also ends in a few years. I think it is clear their new contract will put them number 1 (again). And, with ownership of their own network in millions of home, they'll probably stay there.

As you can see, the other big three conferences (ACC, SEC, and Pac-12) have contracts than don't end for twelve or thirteen years! So, perhaps in the middle of the 2020's, they'll pass the Big Ten. But, probably by the end of the 2020's, the Big Ten's contract will be up for renewal again. The Big Ten is on a different renewal cycle from the other big three, which is to there advantage.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:31 am 
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From a business perspective, I get Notre Dame eyeballing the ACC IFFFFF they needed a conference. It makes sense.

But the Big Ten really is the fit...just not what ND would want as it would mean a likely further stumble of the ND quality of football.

But do love the idea of ND hockey in the Big Ten...and maybe Big Ten lax happening with ND, Ohio St., Penn st., Michigan

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:34 am 
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Eventually Notre Dame will have to choose to join a conference. It may be several years down the read but when that time comes the Big Ten is really the best fit. Add Rutgers, Maryland and either Kansas, Boston College, or Missouri and you have one of the highest grossing leagues in conference sports bringing in one of the most prestigious sports programs while adding several key tv markets.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:16 am 
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FYI - Notre Dame AD Jack Swarbick stated that ND will decide on a hockey conference within 10 days.
(take this with a grain of salt, as the assistant AD was quoted as saying the same thing in early August).

SOMETHING is holding this up.
I have a sneaking suspicion that it relates to "the bigger picture" of ND sports, but that is pure speculation on my part.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:49 pm 
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Phizzy wrote:
tkalmus wrote:
The B1G is going to get less and less appealing after the other four pass it by in TV revenue/relevance and their rust belt population continues to decline while the coasts and South continues to grow.


So, are these just guesses, or did you do some actual research?

Regarding population, the "Rust Belt" isn't declining in population. Between the last two U.S. censuses (2000 and 2010), states in the Big Ten grew by almost 2.5 million people.

Regarding television revenue, the Big Ten is currently number 2, behind the Pac-12 and its new television contract. Here is how it breaks down among the BCS conferences:

1) Pac-12 - $250,000,000 per year for Tier 1 and Tier 2 rights
2) Big Ten - $212,000,000 per year for Tier 1 and Tier 2 rights
3) SEC - $205,000,000 per year for Tier 1 and Tier 2 rights
4) ACC- $155,000,000 per year for Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3 rights
5) Big 12 - $150,000,000 per year for Tier 1 and Tier 2 rights
6) Big East - $42,333,333 per year for Tier 1 and Tier 2 rights

So, when do their current contracts for Tier 1 rights expire?:

Big East - 2011-12
Big 12 - 2015-16
Big Ten - 2015-16
ACC - 2022-23
SEC - 2023-24
Pac-12 - 2023-24

The Big East's contract, obviously ends pretty soon. But, will a weakened Big East, already making far less than the Big Ten, surpass the Big Ten? Nope.

The Big 12's contract ends in a few years. But like the Big East, will a weakened Big 12, which is also making far less than the Big Ten, surpass the Big Ten? Nope.

The Big Ten's contract also ends in a few years. I think it is clear their new contract will put them number 1 (again). And, with ownership of their own network in millions of home, they'll probably stay there.

As you can see, the other big three conferences (ACC, SEC, and Pac-12) have contracts than don't end for twelve or thirteen years! So, perhaps in the middle of the 2020's, they'll pass the Big Ten. But, probably by the end of the 2020's, the Big Ten's contract will be up for renewal again. The Big Ten is on a different renewal cycle from the other big three, which is to there advantage.



Is the BTN revenue listed in Tier 1?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:00 pm 
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Barry Alvarez tells SiriusFM Mad Dog Radio that there currently no teams that improve the Big Ten's value.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/130735633.html


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:19 pm 
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Not even Notre Dame ?

Or have they jilted the Big Ten so many times that the Big Ten is playing "I was never really all that interested..." ?


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