A10 Realignment

Quinn · **Joined:** Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am **Posts:** 3753

pf9 wrote:

The five schools most likely to be taken after a BE (renaming to Metro Conference possibly?) split are:

Dayton
St. Joseph's
Saint Louis
Temple
Xavier

All but Temple would join the Catholic hoops schools (Temple joins the non-Catholics in the FB-playing side). The Atlantic 10 could possibly pick up schools from the CAA and Southern Conference as well. The three most likely candidates being:

NC-Greensboro (Southern)
NC-Wilmington (CAA)
Old Dominion (CAA)

These three could join with George Washington, NC-Charlotte, and Richmond in the South Division. Meanwhile, Duquesne, Fordham, La Salle, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and St. Bonaventure would form the North Division.

Additionally, the A-10 could possibly pick up Army and Navy from the Patriot League. The service academies could bring some tradition to the A-10, while Navy also gets reunited with some former CAA mates (similarly, Army would also be reunited with two former MAAC members, one of which was once in the Patriot League).

And it's worth noting that the politics involved would block Temple from being part of the football side. If Villanova upgrades, that's a lifetime block on temple.

diabsoule · **Joined:** Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:47 pm **Posts:** 252

Should a Big East split occur I would think the top targets for the basketball schools would be:

Temple (if they aren't the 10th football member)
Dayton
Xavier
Richmond

I include Temple because the new basketball conference (call it the Great American Conference) would then have a stranglehold on the Philadelphia market and would have a conference game between two teams that are already rivals. Those are four of the most successful, if not the most successful, programs in the A10 and a chance to compete against Georgetown, Marquette, and Villanova (should they not be invited for football) would be very enticing.

For A10 expansion if those four teams are poached I would think that Butler, George Mason, VCU, and possibly Old Dominion could be targeted. They all fit within the A10 footprint and are all quite successful programs, for the most part.

JPSchmack · **Joined:** Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:21 pm **Posts:** 851

diabsoule wrote:

Should a Big East split occur I would think the top targets for the basketball schools would be:

Temple (if they aren't the 10th football member)
Dayton
Xavier
Richmond

I include Temple because the new basketball conference (call it the Great American Conference) would then have a stranglehold on the Philadelphia market and would have a conference game between two teams that are already rivals. Those are four of the most successful, if not the most successful, programs in the A10 and a chance to compete against Georgetown, Marquette, and Villanova (should they not be invited for football) would be very enticing.

For A10 expansion if those four teams are poached I would think that Butler, George Mason, VCU, and possibly Old Dominion could be targeted. They all fit within the A10 footprint and are all quite successful programs, for the most part.

Nova would be opposed to Temple, and the BE Hoops 5 (Nova, Prov, St. John's, Seton Hall and Georgetown) have traditionally voted in a group, and would be united against NYC, Philly, DC, or NE schools joining).

Xavier, Dayton, Saint Louis, Richmond, Charlotte or Butler is your depth chart.

dafoeberezin3494 · **Posted:** Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:31 pm

Apparently the Big East will be voting on whether or not to add Temple tomorrow. If Temple manages to get in, then either Villanova doesn't have the influence to block them, or the non-football schools would rather have Temple over Houston or UCF. Should be interesting to see if this happens or if Temple is being used as a smokescreen for somebody else.

Quinn · **Joined:** Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am **Posts:** 3753

dafoeberezin3494 wrote:

Apparently the Big East will be voting on whether or not to add Temple tomorrow. If Temple manages to get in, then either Villanova doesn't have the influence to block them, or the non-football schools would rather have Temple over Houston or UCF. Should be interesting to see if this happens or if Temple is being used as a smokescreen for somebody else.

Gotta think the hot start by Temple opened some eyes. But temple had been "moving up the charts". The Big East did seem to infer they wanted only schools from within the footprint. We know USF does not want USF. The SMU addition makes no sense to me. Why would you consider adding SMU but not Houston when TCU and SMU are virtually in the same market?

freaked4collegefb · **Joined:** Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:37 pm **Posts:** 7048

NYTimes article(previously posted in another thread) discussing possibility that FBS conference realignment may filter down to conferences like the A-10.Link at http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/sport ... wanted=all

Quinn · **Joined:** Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am **Posts:** 3753

freaked4collegefb wrote:

NYTimes article(previously posted in another thread) discussing possibility that FBS conference realignment may filter down to conferences like the A-10.Link at http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/sport ... wanted=all

I mentioned in the CAA thread...

Indeed. Seems CAA reached out to local area A10 schools GW and Richmond...as well as Charlotte (whom we know turned them down) and BU from America East.

At same time, A10 spoke informally with GMU and VCU.

In the end, I'm mixed on what is best.

GMU and VCU to A10 is a no-brainer when you factor in the CAA "football" mentality push. The problem being that the A10 has some BB dead weight too.

Ideally, you'd have:

UMass
URI
Temple
Xavier
Dayton
St. Louis

St. Joes
GW
Richmond
Charlotte
VCU
GMU

Instead, you'd have:

UMass
URI
Fordham
Temple
St. Joes
* St. Bonaventure
* Lasalle
* Duquesne
GW
Richmond
Xavier
Dayton
St. Louis
Charlotte
VCU
GMU

On the CAA side, once you take away those 2 programs of late, sans ODU, it's an America East level conference in the CAA. UNCW was solid in the day, but much has changed.

Quinn · **Joined:** Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am **Posts:** 3753

There's so much I like about the CAA...you can catch me on the forums there too.

for instance, I love the revenue split from the NCAA tourney. it's along the lines of 60% to all schools, and the other 40% split for those worthwhile. So schools that commit and success like VCU, GMU, ODU get a reward. In recent years, it's meant that these types of schools get 3-5x more than the bottom feeders.

My issue with the CAA is that they have bottomfeeders, more than the A10. and some bottomfeeders have done alright in basketball lately, but they are still bottomfeeders in the facilities they offer, athletic budget, of extreme location in geography (yes, talking NU).

I like many am all for a small, all-sports, lower level conference like the CAA could be in the future, something like UD, Towson, JMU, ODU, W&M, GSU teaming up with the likes of SoCon schools like App St., GA Southern, etc for somethign all-sports. My point is that these schools with football have a different mindset than the non-football schools. And based on the current CAA geography, it's not a stretch to think that the 6 CAA football schools adding members from the SoCon that have football works. Or that a larger state school with football like UNH is a better fit than Northeastern, a small school without football (or good basketball facilities). It's not a stretch to think that UNCW would be better off in the SoCon with CofC, Davidson, UNCG, etc that are basketball schools in the region.

It's just that I see the best interests being some type of consolidation in the regions where the football schools can do what they do now, put football first. And the basketball schools put basketball first.

For the non-football schools in the CAA, I do see a huge advantage in GMU and VCU joining the A10...for the schools too. It's a basketball-forst/only conference and those schools are basketball schools, not football. UD/JMU will always dominate the CAA landscape in regards to political pressure due to their football programs. And think about it: if you're GMU/VCU and you have 4 schools in UD/JMU/ODU and GSU considering FBS (leaving the CAA), wouldn't it make more sense to be proactive and join something that will always be basketball first?

Sure, the A10 would be there in the future...but both schools would be wise to look earlier.

We know that Hofstra and NU WANT to be it he A10. And if the CAA 4 FB schools left the CAA, all of a sudden GMU/VCU are out of options if the A10 made other moves to 16. Now VCU/GMU are stuck with the likes of little NU/Drexel, stuck with Towson and W&M...and with UNCW in the south holding on...although even at that point, they'd be on the phone with the Socon.

The flight risks of the CAA football schools are why it makes little sense to consider the idea that a10 schools would leave the A10 for the CAA. Because in the end, the CAA if they lose those 4 schools would be VCU/GMU and nothing but bottomfeeders. Meanwhile, in the A10, even the bottom feeders are in a better spot: Fordham, at the very bottom, hired away Hofstra (of the CAA) coach (and Duquesne hired NU coach Everhart a few years back). St. B is in a tough spot, at the bottom. But after FU and StB, the "bottomfeeders" end up being programs like UMass and URI, whom have been in the Final Four and Elite 8, ranked #1 in the country before (UMass) and URI ranked high as well. Not bad history for a current bottomfeeder. Think Hofstra, Towson, NU, W&M, Drexel, UNCW, etc will be at that level one day?

I for one like the idea of a 16 school A10 with 4 scheduling pods:

UMass
URI
St. Bonventure
Temple

Charlotte
Richmond
*VCU
*GMU

GW
St. Joes
Lasalle
Fordham

Duquesne
Xavier
Dayton
St. Louis

You get the UMass/Temple history anchor in one pod, with northeast and a philly rep.
You get a southern pod with the 2 richmond schools, charlotte and GMU as the DC rep there.
You get a pod with GW to rep DC, FU for NYC, and the 2 other philly schools.
You get the midwest pod with the schools from Pitt, Ohio and St. Louis.

Conf championship is in NYC for now. But you strongly consider moving to DC for the 2019 season with 2 schools there, 2 in nearby Richmond, close drive from philly where there are 3 schools, etc.

Of course Bulter/Hostra might be better picks than VCU/GMU anyways as butler tops both VCU/GMU in national prestige and with the A10 tourney in NYC, Hofstra would be a good addition NOW (no NYC tourney, no need for Hofstra).

Fresno St. Alum · **Posted:** Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:55 pm

Quinn wrote:

There's so much I like about the CAA...you can catch me on the forums there too.

for instance, I love the revenue split from the NCAA tourney. it's along the lines of 60% to all schools, and the other 40% split for those worthwhile. So schools that commit and success like VCU, GMU, ODU get a reward. In recent years, it's meant that these types of schools get 3-5x more than the bottom feeders.

My issue with the CAA is that they have bottomfeeders, more than the A10. and some bottomfeeders have done alright in basketball lately, but they are still bottomfeeders in the facilities they offer, athletic budget, of extreme location in geography (yes, talking NU).

I like many am all for a small, all-sports, lower level conference like the CAA could be in the future, something like UD, Towson, JMU, ODU, W&M, GSU teaming up with the likes of SoCon schools like App St., GA Southern, etc for somethign all-sports. My point is that these schools with football have a different mindset than the non-football schools. And based on the current CAA geography, it's not a stretch to think that the 6 CAA football schools adding members from the SoCon that have football works. Or that a larger state school with football like UNH is a better fit than Northeastern, a small school without football (or good basketball facilities). It's not a stretch to think that UNCW would be better off in the SoCon with CofC, Davidson, UNCG, etc that are basketball schools in the region.

It's just that I see the best interests being some type of consolidation in the regions where the football schools can do what they do now, put football first. And the basketball schools put basketball first.

For the non-football schools in the CAA, I do see a huge advantage in GMU and VCU joining the A10...for the schools too. It's a basketball-forst/only conference and those schools are basketball schools, not football. UD/JMU will always dominate the CAA landscape in regards to political pressure due to their football programs. And think about it: if you're GMU/VCU and you have 4 schools in UD/JMU/ODU and GSU considering FBS (leaving the CAA), wouldn't it make more sense to be proactive and join something that will always be basketball first?

Sure, the A10 would be there in the future...but both schools would be wise to look earlier.

We know that Hofstra and NU WANT to be it he A10. And if the CAA 4 FB schools left the CAA, all of a sudden GMU/VCU are out of options if the A10 made other moves to 16. Now VCU/GMU are stuck with the likes of little NU/Drexel, stuck with Towson and W&M...and with UNCW in the south holding on...although even at that point, they'd be on the phone with the Socon.

The flight risks of the CAA football schools are why it makes little sense to consider the idea that a10 schools would leave the A10 for the CAA. Because in the end, the CAA if they lose those 4 schools would be VCU/GMU and nothing but bottomfeeders. Meanwhile, in the A10, even the bottom feeders are in a better spot: Fordham, at the very bottom, hired away Hofstra (of the CAA) coach (and Duquesne hired NU coach Everhart a few years back). St. B is in a tough spot, at the bottom. But after FU and StB, the "bottomfeeders" end up being programs like UMass and URI, whom have been in the Final Four and Elite 8, ranked #1 in the country before (UMass) and URI ranked high as well. Not bad history for a current bottomfeeder. Think Hofstra, Towson, NU, W&M, Drexel, UNCW, etc will be at that level one day?

I for one like the idea of a 16 school A10 with 4 scheduling pods:

UMass
URI
St. Bonventure
Temple

Charlotte
Richmond
*VCU
*GMU

GW
St. Joes
Lasalle
Fordham

Duquesne
Xavier
Dayton
St. Louis

You get the UMass/Temple history anchor in one pod, with northeast and a philly rep.
You get a southern pod with the 2 richmond schools, charlotte and GMU as the DC rep there.
You get a pod with GW to rep DC, FU for NYC, and the 2 other philly schools.
You get the midwest pod with the schools from Pitt, Ohio and St. Louis.

Conf championship is in NYC for now. But you strongly consider moving to DC for the 2019 season with 2 schools there, 2 in nearby Richmond, close drive from philly where there are 3 schools, etc.

Of course Bulter/Hostra might be better picks than VCU/GMU anyways as butler tops both VCU/GMU in national prestige and with the A10 tourney in NYC, Hofstra would be a good addition NOW (no NYC tourney, no need for Hofstra).

Are those f*cking pods? I hate it! make 2 div of 8. Then I love it.

tkalmus · **Joined:** Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:40 pm **Posts:** 1035

PODS ARE AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!

Quinn · **Joined:** Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am **Posts:** 3753

scheduling pods only. Conf tourney seeds still 1-16 overall. It's basketball = 1 division of 16 schools.

Fresno St. Alum · **Posted:** Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:30 pm

tkalmus wrote:

PODS ARE AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!

Gig em!

JPSchmack · **Joined:** Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:21 pm **Posts:** 851

Quinn wrote:

There's so much I like about the CAA...you can catch me on the forums there too.

for instance, I love the revenue split from the NCAA tourney. it's along the lines of 60% to all schools, and the other 40% split for those worthwhile. So schools that commit and success like VCU, GMU, ODU get a reward. In recent years, it's meant that these types of schools get 3-5x more than the bottom feeders.

I like that too.
The SEC has always been "one for all, and all for one" which breeds unity in a power conference, but breeds mediocrity in a small conference.

The A-10 is "make it, take it." Which breeds Xavier, Dayton, Temple and Rhode Island, St. Joe's with great or new good facilities, and Duquesne, St. Bona, LaSalle and Fordham playing in crappy gyms.

Quinn wrote:

For the non-football schools in the CAA, I do see a huge advantage in GMU and VCU joining the A10...for the schools too… if you're GMU/VCU and you have 4 schools in UD/JMU/ODU and GSU considering FBS (leaving the CAA), wouldn't it make more sense to be proactive and join something that will always be basketball first?

Sure, the A10 would be there in the future...but both schools would be wise to look earlier.

I also think it's the other way around. In 2003, when the ACC raided the Big East, the A-10 was proactive:

They added Charlotte and Saint Louis because they anticipated the Big East splitting after five years and taking Xavier and Dayton.

Hasn't happened yet, but with conferences being discussed at 14 or 16 members, the idea that Xavier, Dayton, Saint Louis, and Richmond could all join the Big East Hoops Group seems more probable.

Temple is being talked about for all sports because of their FBS program.
UMass looking to upgrade to FBS, so they wouldn't be long for the league.
Charlotte adding FCS, so they can upgrade to FBS, and they can leave.

That's seven of your 14 teams that could be leaving in the near future, or down the line. (And those seven have 53 of the A-10's combined 68 bids since Xavier and UD joined the league).

Quinn wrote:

Meanwhile, in the A10, even the bottom feeders are in a better spot: Fordham, at the very bottom, hired away Hofstra (of the CAA) coach (and Duquesne hired NU coach Everhart a few years back). St. B is in a tough spot, at the bottom. But after FU and StB, the "bottomfeeders" end up being programs like UMass and URI, whom have been in the Final Four and Elite 8, ranked #1 in the country before (UMass) and URI ranked high as well. Not bad history for a current bottomfeeder. Think Hofstra, Towson, NU, W&M, Drexel, UNCW, etc will be at that level one day?

Hey Hey Hey Hey Hey! LaSalle (2) and St. Bonaventure (1) combined have been to more Final Fours than Temple (2) and Xavier (0) combined! Better knock out that "bottomfeeder" talk before Bob Lanier's Size 22s hit you in the hindparts!

Quinn wrote:

I for one like the idea of a 16 school A10 with 4 scheduling pods:
UMass, URI, St. Bonventure, Temple
Charlotte, Richmond, *VCU, *GMU
GW, St. Joes, Lasalle, Fordham
Duquesne, Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis

That'd be silly. They're way better off with 16 conference games. Play everyone once, and one extra game with:
DAY-XAV, TEM-SJU, LAS-FOR, SBU-DUQ, SLU-CHAR, RICH-VCU, GMU-GW, MASS-URI

Quinn · **Joined:** Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am **Posts:** 3753

JP, I mentioned it in another thread, but...

At some point, we all need to throw in the towel on a Big East split. 4 of 9 football schools have left, with more potentially leaving.

Big East is down to two options:
1) lose more schools and just work to have the 3-4 remaining football schools join CUSA/MWC for football only. Big East would be 10-13 for all-sports if that happens (NC, UL, UConn, RU as flight risks).

2) Big East adds 3-4 all-sports members (UCf, SMU, Houston...Temple as 4th if needed) and FB only members.

Either way, it's a renewed solidarity to the hybrid. This would mark the 2nd time the conference lost mass numbers of members, but opted for the hybrid. And this time, they lost even more members (4 this time, 3 in 2003).

At some point, we have to accept that a split is not happening. If it were, it would happen now. It doesn't appear to be as either of the 2 options above WILL happen and both support the hybrid.

So the A10 is stuck with 13-14 with Temple the only school that is a flight risk now. We'll know more in the coming weeks when the Big East locks up it's plan. If it's 1 of the two above, a split is an even longer shot than it has been.

JPSchmack · **Joined:** Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:21 pm **Posts:** 851

Quinn wrote:

JP, I mentioned it in another thread, but...

At some point, we all need to throw in the towel on a Big East split. 4 of 9 football schools have left, with more potentially leaving.

Big East is down to two options:
1) lose more schools and just work to have the 3-4 remaining football schools join CUSA/MWC for football only. Big East would be 10-13 for all-sports if that happens (NC, UL, UConn, RU as flight risks).

2) Big East adds 3-4 all-sports members (UCf, SMU, Houston...Temple as 4th if needed) and FB only members.

Either way, it's a renewed solidarity to the hybrid. This would mark the 2nd time the conference lost mass numbers of members, but opted for the hybrid. And this time, they lost even more members (4 this time, 3 in 2003).

At some point, we have to accept that a split is not happening. If it were, it would happen now. It doesn't appear to be as either of the 2 options above WILL happen and both support the hybrid.

So the A10 is stuck with 13-14 with Temple the only school that is a flight risk now. We'll know more in the coming weeks when the Big East locks up it's plan. If it's 1 of the two above, a split is an even longer shot than it has been.

Temple would be the only team to "discuss" then. (In the future UMass, and in the even more distant future Charlotte). And where's the fun in that?

Besides, if someone had posted two years ago that the MWC and CUSA would merge with 22 teams, we'd have laughed them right off the board.

A10 Realignment

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