Like APP, JMU may want to move up in 2-3 years but its options are severely limited. Neither the Sun Belt or the MAC will want them as all sports members and hosting your basketball and non revenue sports in the CAA won't likely be an option. What do they do?????? Unfortunately for them they stay put.

So if the A10 does not lose anyone, would GMU and VCU still join? I just don't see it. ODU and other FCS schools are non starters because they don't want to end up like Charlotte, w/ no home for FCS football.

Getting the FCS football league under the CAA banner was crucial and ultimately may be the reason Charlotte joins the CAA over time.

this has been a fun debate though...the other realignment board is impossible to have a civil discussion about realignment.

Much of your thoughts are based on what is either an unproven or false premise. Northeastern and Hofstra dropped football...but did the CAA kick them out? No. So why do you assume that the VA based CAA would kick out JMU (or UD, ODU, GSU for that matter) if they upgraded to FBS and joined the MAC for football.

With Temple as an option for the Big East for likely football (to replace WVU), the MAC would likely welcome JMU with open arms for FB only. And based on the recruiting benefits of being in Virginia and the mid-atlantic and south, along with the market access into new areas like Baltimore, DC, Richmond, etc, it's really not a stretch to think that the MAC would be willing to add MORE than just JMU.

For instance, Delaware gives "MAC level expectation" access into Philly and even B'more. JMU for NoVa/DC/Richmond, ODU for southern virginia.


Of course that is all speculation. But what seem like fact (based on CAA retaining NU/HU) is that if schools upgrade to FBS (for FB only conference like MAC) then there's no reason to assume the CAA would kick them out.

As for the future of FCS football...the trends are what they are. It will exist. But the "haves" are starting to move up or get close to it (App St, GA Southern, Jax St, etc). There will always be options for all the current CAA schools. Albeit FB only in SoCon, SoCon dropping football and FB schools joining CAA for FB only, something with the Patriot and schollies which would likely be happy to add towson, Richmond, W&M (if JMU, UD, ODU and GSU upgraded).


That said, I do see the benefit of VCU and GMU in the CAA now. Travel costs aren't a huge difference since the CAA spans from Boston to Atlanta, albeit with schools that hardly penetrate their larger markets (NU/HU/Drexel/GSU). But being in the middle of the footprint, it's a big help.


But one of the key points in these schools being all set with the CAA was the A10 risk of losing it's top 4 schools. But once that risk is officially over (we will know likely within weeks...since the Pac-16 is off the list for at least 6 years and movement will be minimal), who knows? Truth is, the A10 has no reason to add VCU or GMU. They already have Richmond in one market and GW in the other...the same NCAA tourney GW that now has the up and commer coach that GMU wanted in Lonergan. Unproven at GW, so he could be a bust. But GMU has a new coach, a fired retread, so they face the same types of hurdles.

And with no need or real room to expand, the conversation is likely moot here.

Because it's chicken/egg: A10 would only want GMU/VCU if they lost 4 schools. But if they lost 4 schools, VCU/GMU would have no interest.

And the A10 is in a good spot at 14 since they average almost 3 bids a year with schools that have gotten good enough bids over the past decade to advance enough to generate more money. So expansion only works if it means getting schools that make a 4th bid a near lock.

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there is a big difference between dropping a sport completely and wanting to play that sport in another conference (especially one as high profile as football) when your current conference sponsors that sport. Its not an NCAA rule, but I highly doubt the CAA would appreciate the MAC decimating is FCS football league by inviting the 4 you have mentioned nor do I think the CAA would encourage this by allowing these schools to move football to the MAC while still having the safe haven of the CAA for basketball and non revenue sports. The MAC may love to expand their footprint south with FCS Upgrades, but these FCS leagues are not going to just make it easy for the MAC to take their top football schools, nor should they be expected to. I think its completely reasonable to assume that if any CAA school went to the MAC football only, they be expected to find another conference for their basketball and non revenue sports. Heck that might be how the A10 can get ODU.





you are right about it being a chicken and egg argument. there are so many uncertainties too so it all depends on what the Big East decides to do. It looks as if the Big East will try Hybrid 2.0 which forces CUSA and MWC to rebuild, not A10 since Nova vetoed Temple. It really works out well for the A10 and they would be wise to work with the MAC to host FBS football in the MAC in an Eastern division with basketball and non revenue sports in the A10. Charlotte and JMU/ODU could take MAC #15 and #16 slot for FBS football and be in the A10 for everything else ala the Temple/Umass Model. The A10 would be wise to pursue this.

Here is a scenario for you, assuming Temple finally gets the Big East invite once WVU/Louisville leave and the MAC and a10 can work together for those interested in FBS Football:

A10
URI (NEC FCS Football)
UMASS (MAC FBS Football)
St Bony
Fordham (CAA FCS Football)
Duquense (NEC FCS Football)
St. Louis
Xavier
Dayton (Pioneer FCS NON SCHOLLY Football)
St. Joe's
La Salle
George Washington
Charlotte (MAC FBS Football)
Richmond (CAA FCS Football)
App St (MAC FBS Football)
ODU (MAC FBS Football)
VCU

CAA
Northeastern
Stony Brook (CAA FCS Football)
Hofstra
Drexel
Delaware (CAA FCS Football)
Towson (CAA FCS Football)
JMU (CAA FCS Football)
GMU
William and Mary (CAA FCS Football)
UNCW
College of Charleston
Ga St (CAA FCS Football)

Sorry, I dont' see a difference. One has a school DROPPING the sport and no longer participating. The other has a school upgrading the sport to a level NOT sponsored by the conference. You are hinting around it, but it seems that you're saying that you would expect the CAA to be like petty children who get mad another child for wanting to play at a higher level of CYO rather than the lower "town" league.

Whether dropping the sport or upgrading, the result is the same: a school leaves for that sport. And since the CAA held on to Northeastern (school was only brought to the CAA so CAA could get football sponsorship...as they are very much below BU in regards to other athletics/budget/facilities). And JMU is much more desirable to the CAA for non-football sports than NU is.

More important though, is that there is no rule stating that a school that leaves the conference for a sport can be kicked out. So you would need to see the CAA vote and pass on a rule before kicking JMU out would even be an option. And I doubt with 4 schools considering upgrades, that you'd ever even see a vote on the subject.

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So you really think the CAA and the SoCon would allow a JMU or an App St. to leave the conference for the most high profile sport, hurting the conference in the process, while still providing a home for basketball and non revenue sports so the school that just put the conference in a bind can benefit. We are just going to have to disagree on that. I know there is no NCAA rule, but I would be surprised if there was not a CAA rule that prohibited a member from playing in another conference if the CAA sponsors that sport.

There is a huge difference between deciding hey we are not going to play football anymore (there is no CAA rule that says you have to sponsor football) versus hey we want to play football in another conference even though you sponsor the sport. UNCW used to be an affiliate member in the Big South for Women's Golf and Softball for the SoCon but when the CAA decided to sponsor the sports they had to move there Affiliations over to the CAA despite the increased travel costs.

That's what you are not willing to grasp: FBS football is not FCS football. The CAA does not sponsor FBS football, it offers FCS football. If a CAA school like JMU opts to upgrade to FBS, which means increasing their scholarships beyond the number permitted by FCS, then they are no longer by NCAA rules, permitted to remain in an FCS conference. And if a CAA school opted to drop scholarship football and join the Pioneer, the CAA couldn't do anything about that either.

The notion you are presenting is what I mentioned a post above: pettiness. You're saying that the you think the reaction would be pettiness. Because FBS football is not FCS football. They are 2 completely different sports in the eyes of the NCAA and conference members.

For instance, ECU played FBS (then D1) football while the Yankee/A10 sponsored football. The CAA was plenty happy with ECU in the mix, especially with UNCW in the conference. ECU left when they got a CUSA all-sports invite. But if the CAA was sponsoring FCS football, by your take, the CAA would have kicked out ECU if ECU were in the conference when the CAA started sponsorship?

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I understand the FBS football is not FCS football, please don't be condescending. I thought we were having a good discussion. The CAA does not sponsor FBS football, but they do sponsor football. If a CAA member wanted to upgrade to FBS football, that would require them to play football in another conference, which I believe would violate conference rules. They could request a waiver, but I just don't see the CAA being the type of conference that would want a member to play scholarship football, whether it be FBS or FCS, outside the conference banner. Maybe something could be worked out, but I don't think that is something the conference would encourage or support. App St is going through the same thing with the SoCon.



You can call it pettiness, but the CAA has to look out for its FCS conference and FCS members who have no chance of upgrading. By being a willing home to basketball and non revenue sports of your strongest FCS members so they can upgrade to FCS, you are severely weakening your FCS football conference.

I cannot answer your ECU question because the CAA was not sponsoring football at the time. I do know that ECU was in the SoCon until it went 1-AA/FCS and then left to be an independent in football 1-A FBS level while joining the CAA. I would assume ECU would have preferred to remain in the SoCon for its non revenue sports while being an FBS independent but I also assume that was not an option given to them, so they chose football over non revenues and moved their non revenues over to a non football CAA conference. If the CAA had decided to sponser football while ECU was still in the conference as an FBS member I assume they would have been grandfathered in but I don't know that for a fact.

Was not being condescending, just stating the facts that not everyone knows: that even at the FCS level, there are tiers based on scholarships and that FCS football is viewed as a different sport all together than FBS football. Each conference has it's own set of rules. For instance, the OVC sponsors FBS football but has no problems with those members not participating at the same scholarship level as the majority, to be in other conferences.

It's also worth noting that since the CAA is not an all-sports conference requiring all it's members to sponsor a sport (unlike the Big Sky was until Cal-Poly/UCD invites...which required a rule chance by the Big Sky), that there exists no conference policy on the matter. Furthermore, if the CAA has provisions of any type, you would think they would have used them to dump low athletic budget/horrible facilities Northeastern. Because in the end, NU is taking up a spot that the CAA could use for a more worthy member that is committed to athletics (even ones without football).

Regardless, the only fact that matters is that JMU is the one saying they expect to be FBS within "18-24 months" as of last month.

So in my mind, JMU will continue to be a member of the CAA when that day comes...unless they leave on their own.

In your mind, the CAA will be announcing shortly after the JMU announcement that they have kicked JMU out of the CAA.

And in my mind, that would be a big negative for the CAA to do, to kick out a school like JMU. In yours, you would expect the CAA to kick them out. Pretty much sums it all up.

And with JMU's plans being so public, you would also think the CAA would do some posturing and use the media by stating that JMU (or any) school upgrading would be kicked out of the conference. But lets face it: JMU and UD in FBS would hurt CAA football. But who is to day right now that them being in for other sports would be a negative at all or a positive?

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I don't know 1 conference that has allowed that. JMU would be MAC for all sports and App St. SBC for all sports. What year did the NCAA stop allowing D-I schools to play D-II and D-III fb? I can't think of one school that plays FBS fb in 1 conf. and plays other sports in an FCS conf. Temple was grandfathered in when the BE started fb and the A10 sponsored 1-AA. This was all around the time G'town, Dayton, etc..had to move fb to D-I from D-III. Going the opposite way Nova and UConn who were grandfathered in from Yankee to A10 to CAA. G'town in the PL.

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The CAA is an all sports conference, its just that not all members are required to SPONSOR a certain sport in order to participate in the conference. The CAA did not always have football, but now that it does if a member wants to play football, it will have to play under the CAA banner. Same for any other sport, FCS/FBS is irrelevant. If a school wanted to seek permission, to play in a different conference they could whether it be the MAC (Which would likely cause problems because that would require a school currently playing a sport under the CAA banner removing that sport from under the CAA banner) or the Pioneer (which would likely not cause problems, especially if a program like UNCW wanted to go that route).



Again, I don't agree with you at all here. The CAA is an all sports conference. An accurate description would be that the CAA does not require its members to sponsor football, like the Big Sky did up until recently and the SoCon does unless you get a waiver like Davidson, UNCG, and COC. ETSU was forced out of the SoCon for dropping football and VMI left the SOCON for wanting to move its football to the Big South, as initially they wanted to just move football but were denied with ETSU leading the way ironically. NU dropping football no more a violation than if a school were to drop women's golf. Playing football is not one of the required CAA sports, it is an option but not a requirement.



JMU would not announce a move of football only to the MAC without working out a home for their basketball and non revenue sports beforehand, whether it be a new conference like the A10 or a waiver from the CAA. To do so would be poor leadership and would put the schools athletic department in jeopardy of being without a home conference as they would be (I believe I cannot prove) in violation of conference rules. But Ill play along with your scenario. If JMU announced tomorrow that they were going to the MAC for football only, I would expect the CAA to follow whatever protocol the rules say. If playing football, whatever the level, puts them in violation of the conference rules and JMU has shown no regard for these rules or has not even made an effort to work with the conference than I would expect the conference to follow the rules and expel the offending member.

Army and Navy

Nope, They are Indy, what conf do they play FBS fb in? If the BE thing happens, the yes it will be true.

I also don't think we can put Army, Navy, Air Force in the same category as the rest of the America, they are unlike the rest of the FBS schools.

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But Army was in conference usa for FBS while in the FCS patriot league.

Again, there is no NCAA rule that says you can't play FBS football in 1 conference and all other sports in another FBS/FCS conference, they leave it up to the conferences.

Its the conferences are the ones that won't allow you to play football in another conference, if your home conference sponsors football. The NCAA does not care if you play football in the SEC, basketball in the ACC, baseball in the Big 12, volleyball in the PAC 10, and hockey in the Big 10; if you can get all 5 of those conferences to let you do that the NCAA would say more power to you. You would not count towards their magic numbers of 7 for a multisport conference or 8 for an FBS conference but the NCAA would do nothing to prevent this from happening.

In a realistic scenario, the WAC could allow Boise and Air Force to play in the league for all sports but football, which seems to be out of the picture now, while playing in the Big East for football. If this were to happen, Boise and Air Force would count towards the magic number of 7 for the WAC multisport conference classification since that is where they play all their sports but not towards the WAC magic number of 8 for FBS conference status, since they don't play their football there. For the Big East, Air Force and Boise would not count towards either the magic number of 7 or 8 since they do not play enough sports in the Big East to count towards the magic number.

The Patriot League is the only conference that allows its members to play up a football division (I.E. Army and Navy being in an FCS Patriot League while playing FBS football). The Big East, The Big South, The SoCon, the MVC, and the OVC allow its members to "play down" (I.E. Play at a lower level of football than what the conference sponsors). All other football only members of a conference have a home conference that does not sponsor football.

Most conferences that sponsor a sport require that you play that sport in the conference. When Hofstra, Deleware, Drexel, and Townson moved over to the CAA, the CAA had enough teams to sponsor softball and women's golf, which forced UNCW to abandon their travel friendly affiliations with the SoCon and the Big South respectively and play these two sports in conference.

Some conferences have core sports which a school is required to sponsor in order to be a member of the conference. Now you can get a waiver from the conference, like Davidson, UNCG, and College of Charleston did with the SoCon to get around this conference rule, but they do not have to grant you a wavier, just ask ETSU, who got forced out of the SoCon for dropping the core sport of football.

This is why most schools seeking affiliation for football only park their homes in non football conferences, whether they be FBS or FCS. A non football conference does not care where you play football and has no rules about where you have to play football. Using the example of Boise, this is why the Big West is a better option as opposed to the Big Sky. They would need a waiver from the Big Sky to not play Big Sky Football, which could potentially create instability in the Big Sky as most conferences do no like this idea, while the Big West does not have this extra hurdle and does not care where its members play a sport it does not sponsor.