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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Damn, the WCC school message boards are HAMMERING Pacific right now.

I think people forget that expansion/realignment is a two-way street: It's not just what a school brings to the table, but what the school CAN ACHIEVE with conference membership.

Pacific can achieve more in the WCC than the Big West. First off, Pacific IS a WCC institution. It's just played with the UC-s and CS-s of the world since 1972. They made the move out of the WCC for football, and have dropped it and have been WCC orphans ever since.

If you're the type of athlete who wants a private institution, (after you get your rejection letter from Stanford) are you going to pick a WCC school -- with three guaranteed MBB games on TV, Gonzaga and Saint Mary's in the dance every year -- or UOP in the Big West?

Essentially, out of the 11 private schools, Pacific SHOULD be 11th based on conference affiliation alone. Any kid looking at Pacific was also looking at a WCC school. And just about every sport, the WCC offers better competition (except baseball).

Well, now Pacific is recruiting on an equal ground with those other WCC schools. This changes the game in every sport.

It's really big when you look at subtle details, like women's soccer playing with 10 fewer players than Big West rosters. One injury derails the whole season. The WCC schools won't have that problem.

And most importantly, men's basketball. The WCC fans are making a huge deal about Pacific's RPI. RPI is a PRODUCT OF CONFERENCE AFFILIATION. Long Beach went 18-1 in Big West games, played the #1 OOC SOS and their RPI was #34. Saint Mary's and Gonzaga were #25 and #28.

All RPI is? How your conference faired in non-conference games. And the Big West basically HAD to play strong OOC schedules (and get losses) because of how weak the BWC in general was. On the women's side, running the table in the Big West would have resulted in an RPI of #48 (And the Tigers' WBB team played UConn and Florida out of conference, beating Florida). They could get a top 70 RPI by going 12-6 in the WCC.

This move will make Pacific better first, and then that will make the WCC better.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:04 am 
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JPSchmack wrote:
Damn, the WCC school message boards are HAMMERING Pacific right now.

I think people forget that expansion/realignment is a two-way street: It's not just what a school brings to the table, but what the school CAN ACHIEVE with conference membership.

Pacific can achieve more in the WCC than the Big West. First off, Pacific IS a WCC institution. It's just played with the UC-s and CS-s of the world since 1972. They made the move out of the WCC for football, and have dropped it and have been WCC orphans ever since.

If you're the type of athlete who wants a private institution, (after you get your rejection letter from Stanford) are you going to pick a WCC school -- with three guaranteed MBB games on TV, Gonzaga and Saint Mary's in the dance every year -- or UOP in the Big West?

Essentially, out of the 11 private schools, Pacific SHOULD be 11th based on conference affiliation alone. Any kid looking at Pacific was also looking at a WCC school. And just about every sport, the WCC offers better competition (except baseball).

Well, now Pacific is recruiting on an equal ground with those other WCC schools. This changes the game in every sport.

It's really big when you look at subtle details, like women's soccer playing with 10 fewer players than Big West rosters. One injury derails the whole season. The WCC schools won't have that problem.

And most importantly, men's basketball. The WCC fans are making a huge deal about Pacific's RPI. RPI is a PRODUCT OF CONFERENCE AFFILIATION. Long Beach went 18-1 in Big West games, played the #1 OOC SOS and their RPI was #34. Saint Mary's and Gonzaga were #25 and #28.

All RPI is? How your conference faired in non-conference games. And the Big West basically HAD to play strong OOC schedules (and get losses) because of how weak the BWC in general was. On the women's side, running the table in the Big West would have resulted in an RPI of #48 (And the Tigers' WBB team played UConn and Florida out of conference, beating Florida). They could get a top 70 RPI by going 12-6 in the WCC.

This move will make Pacific better first, and then that will make the WCC better.


I think the resistance is that on the heals of the last move, BYU, which added not just access to a new market like SLC, it brought a national following. But even if they weren't national, it was the new SLC market along with their hoops success.

And then there is Pacific. a 9-19 school with a 290 RPI, a school that adds little to the future TV negotiations. Remember, the WCC is the #2 hoops conference in the west after the Pac-12, and in some years like this past one, the WCC was better.

Now, obviously, from a TV perspective, many of the fans would have preferred Seattle: a large, new market, closest candidate to the power center of Spokane, where the best WCC program is located. As for performance, even after the coaching change and cam Dollar coming on, in which Seattle's hoops performance has dropped, they still had a better record and better RPI than Pacific.

Then there is the camp hoping that Air Force will get in. Again, national like BYU.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:42 am 
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I went through a Gonzaga message board last night, saw the same thing. In reality, a pack of them should be required to peruse these boards for a while... the talk of who to throw out of a conference is a sign of people begging for perspective.

What sort of exit fee exists for WAC schools and debutantes right now? Could Denver have been added? Is Air Force a near term realistic goal? On that note, the Spokesman-Review article I saw definitely points to conference leaders considering ONLY private schools. While we could argue that Air Force isn't really a public school in the traditional sense, my gut says the WCC is serious about that wall. THEREFORE, no Denver sends me a signal that this conference knows that BYU isn't here for a long time, just a good time. Therefore, I don't think the bulk of WCC schools see themselves as expansionist, per se.

The other reason to seek perspective: remember when there was talk of Pepperdine leaving? I'd still say the WCC is a pretty happy family, but that's certainly relative. The WCC is no less prone to the pressures of current restructuring than any other D-1 conference. They'll just pass on the public schools, thank you. UoP is insurance.

There is a California malaise at work. It's something you also see in the Big West. I practically hear individual schools thinking "we can't compete with Pac-12 schools in a long haul, so cut costs, cut travel." If I had to point fingers, I'd go straight to Pepperdine and Loyola Marymount- maybe to the other California institutions as well- and say that they recognize their facilities aren't ready for an upgrade, and Pacific solves a few of THEIR problems. Again, BYU is passing through, so going east does them no good in the long run. Furthermore, in pointing at the LA schools, guess who's the real recruiting hotbed (assuming they could compete, which in reality they're not so bad at right now), so perhaps they possess the capability to pull some strings.

There's the numbers issue, but not just 9 vs 8 or 10. It's 3 in the Bay Area and 3 in SoCal. The WCC was rotating a Bay Area school as San Diego's travel partner in a given year, now it'll likely be San Francisco/Santa Clara and St. Mary's/Pacific, while perversely, San Diego and Brigham Young are partners (not for a long...). Thing is, at least Utah has a hub airport. Add Seattle, then who's the odd school partnering with? That's a problem not nearly easily solved, though let me bring up this scorecard:

Saint Martins, Lacey WA
Northwest Nazarene, Nampa ID
Seattle Pacific, Seattle WA

If the WCC wants a sane travel balance AND add Seattle U, they're going to need to tap one of these D-2 schools (I listed the private schools in the GNAC). Since one choice clearly splits Seattle, and Saint Martins still splits Puget Sound, you could argue Northwest Nazarene should be prepping their resume right now. Of course, Nampa's a stone's throw commute from Boise, which ought to make life interesting in the Treasure Valley. Northwest Nazarene is probably a bit small for the conference, naturally.

So there are no easy answers here, you add Pacific because of California convenience (or malaise), we can guess BYU is scheming, and, well, the conference gets credit for keeping that one hidden until the presser.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:56 am 
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Quinn wrote:
JPSchmack wrote:
Damn, the WCC school message boards are HAMMERING Pacific right now.

I think people forget that expansion/realignment is a two-way street: It's not just what a school brings to the table, but what the school CAN ACHIEVE with conference membership.

Pacific can achieve more in the WCC than the Big West. First off, Pacific IS a WCC institution. It's just played with the UC-s and CS-s of the world since 1972. They made the move out of the WCC for football, and have dropped it and have been WCC orphans ever since.

If you're the type of athlete who wants a private institution, (after you get your rejection letter from Stanford) are you going to pick a WCC school -- with three guaranteed MBB games on TV, Gonzaga and Saint Mary's in the dance every year -- or UOP in the Big West?

Essentially, out of the 11 private schools, Pacific SHOULD be 11th based on conference affiliation alone. Any kid looking at Pacific was also looking at a WCC school. And just about every sport, the WCC offers better competition (except baseball).

Well, now Pacific is recruiting on an equal ground with those other WCC schools. This changes the game in every sport.

It's really big when you look at subtle details, like women's soccer playing with 10 fewer players than Big West rosters. One injury derails the whole season. The WCC schools won't have that problem.

And most importantly, men's basketball. The WCC fans are making a huge deal about Pacific's RPI. RPI is a PRODUCT OF CONFERENCE AFFILIATION. Long Beach went 18-1 in Big West games, played the #1 OOC SOS and their RPI was #34. Saint Mary's and Gonzaga were #25 and #28.

All RPI is? How your conference faired in non-conference games. And the Big West basically HAD to play strong OOC schedules (and get losses) because of how weak the BWC in general was. On the women's side, running the table in the Big West would have resulted in an RPI of #48 (And the Tigers' WBB team played UConn and Florida out of conference, beating Florida). They could get a top 70 RPI by going 12-6 in the WCC.

This move will make Pacific better first, and then that will make the WCC better.


I think the resistance is that on the heals of the last move, BYU, which added not just access to a new market like SLC, it brought a national following. But even if they weren't national, it was the new SLC market along with their hoops success.

And then there is Pacific. a 9-19 school with a 290 RPI, a school that adds little to the future TV negotiations. Remember, the WCC is the #2 hoops conference in the west after the Pac-12, and in some years like this past one, the WCC was better.

Now, obviously, from a TV perspective, many of the fans would have preferred Seattle: a large, new market, closest candidate to the power center of Spokane, where the best WCC program is located. As for performance, even after the coaching change and cam Dollar coming on, in which Seattle's hoops performance has dropped, they still had a better record and better RPI than Pacific.

Then there is the camp hoping that Air Force will get in. Again, national like BYU.


And lets not forget Denver. On the list of schools and markets, some might not love Seattle of Pacific, and Air Force might never be an option for many reasons. But there is also Denver, a private school in the mold of the WCC general membership, a neighbor for BYU, and a new WCC market.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:11 pm 
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adding pacific though really screws up any divisional WCC play as the CA non CA school balance is 7-3. Adding any 2 of Denver, Seattle, or Air Force is unworkable because there is no way 1 CA school will be in the non CA division. If further expansion is desired you would almost have to go to 14 at this point, but the problem is there is not another non CA school that fits the WCC mold outside of Denver, Seattle, and Air Force, unless 13 would be ok for them.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:38 pm 
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UOP usually has a good basketball most of the time and makes 4 teams in the nor cal giving everyone a better travel partner. Gonz/Port, St.M/UOP, USF/Santa Clara, LMU/Pepp, USD/BYU.

If you added Denver instead then they'd be out on an island when BYU finally realizes that the Big 12 is better than Indy/WCC. Now if the WCC rather have 10 and just pair USD w/ Denver if/when BYU leaves, that works. Or stay at 9.

WCC #2 in the west? MWC sent 4 of 8, WCC 3 of 9. So even after they got BYU they still didn't get as many invites.

What are you guys b*tching about a conf that never adds anyone just added 2 schools in 2 years. We are a realignment board aren't we. I won't b*tch if the Ivy invites Bucknell and Holy Cross. I'd just be thankful they actually did something.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:55 pm 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
WCC #2 in the west? MWC sent 4 of 8, WCC 3 of 9. So even after they got BYU they still didn't get as many invites.


Yeah, but the MWC won't exist in another year. Their regular season co-champ is joining the Big West and they're adding in the top of the WAC and the CUSA leftovers.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:54 pm 
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JPSchmack wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
WCC #2 in the west? MWC sent 4 of 8, WCC 3 of 9. So even after they got BYU they still didn't get as many invites.


Yeah, but the MWC won't exist in another year. Their regular season co-champ is joining the Big West and they're adding in the top of the WAC and the CUSA leftovers.

So what region are we now? East? Central? SW? Mideast, I haven't heard that term in a while.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:34 pm 
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Well, the WAC has had La Tech for a while and has still been a "West Coast conference." the new MWC/CUSA can't be labeled by geography, since it's Greenville, NC to Honolulu.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:54 pm 
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JPSchmack wrote:
Well, the WAC has had La Tech for a while and has still been a "West Coast conference." the new MWC/CUSA can't be labeled by geography, since it's Greenville, NC to Honolulu.


If we were D-II they would have had to assign us to a region, for tournaments, which are actually regionals, not just called that like in the D-I tourney. That would be fun to watch heads explode.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:41 am 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
UOP usually has a good basketball most of the time and makes 4 teams in the nor cal giving everyone a better travel partner. Gonz/Port, St.M/UOP, USF/Santa Clara, LMU/Pepp, USD/BYU.

If you added Denver instead then they'd be out on an island when BYU finally realizes that the Big 12 is better than Indy/WCC. Now if the WCC rather have 10 and just pair USD w/ Denver if/when BYU leaves, that works. Or stay at 9.

WCC #2 in the west? MWC sent 4 of 8, WCC 3 of 9. So even after they got BYU they still didn't get as many invites.

What are you guys b*tching about a conf that never adds anyone just added 2 schools in 2 years. We are a realignment board aren't we. I won't b*tch if the Ivy invites Bucknell and Holy Cross. I'd just be thankful they actually did something.


Yes, #2 in the West. No more SDSU, they are Big West's claim now. MWC had a great year with UNLV, UNM and Colorado St. Miles is gone form CSU, expect a slide back to reality.

But the key is that it all depends on the MWC/CUSA merger situation. If they merge to 16, look at who is left in the CUSA side: not a powerhouse...think USM will pull that off every year? The MWC side will likely still send 2-3 but the CUSA side will likely send 0-1. In a great year, I think the MWC/CUSA bids would be 3...of 16 schools.

Meanwhile, the WCC just sent 3 schools...of 9. Yes, when you send 1/3 of your conferences schools to the tourney, I put that as fair #2 ranking. If there was any argument, it would be that the WCC is #1, as the big money, big TV Pac-12 only sent 2 schools of 12 this year.

On the same side, with the MWC sending 3 of 8 schools was great this year. But I'm looking at the future where SDSU is gone, BSU too, and there are potentially 16 or more total schools in the mix, none of which help much on the basketball side. Didn't mean to take anything away from the MWC, GREAT year and they deserve more credit. I guess it's just because no matter what bar I goto in any of the west coast cities, if they have TVs, there is a Pac-12 game on and a WCC game on...rarely a MWC game on.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:17 pm 
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The next announcement coming in all this will be the WCC adding softball. They have five schools who play softball in some random confederation. Pacific would be the sixth school with softball.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:32 pm 
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Quinn wrote:
And lets not forget Denver. On the list of schools and markets, some might not love Seattle of Pacific, and Air Force might never be an option for many reasons. But there is also Denver, a private school in the mold of the WCC general membership, a neighbor for BYU, and a new WCC market.


I really don't know how much market plays into national TV deals for the West Coast.

There's 250 schools in the ET/CT, but only 50 or so in the MT/PT.

You put a game on ESPN at 11 pm or midnight ET, and it will get watched by the sports fans still awake because Live Sports > SportsCenter again. The Big West used to be on Big Monday. That's how Pacific got good in the first place. Conversely, the East Coast sports fan isn't going to stay up late just to watch Denver vs Seattle. It's the same group of people watching no matter which team it is.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:58 pm 
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Should Air Force decide to take their football to the Big East I wonder if the WCC would be inclined to add Air Force (and Denver as a travel partner). Army in Navy are both in academically elite, private school conferences and I think that Air Force would benefit from following a similar path and fit in well with the WCC schools.

If this did happen my guess is that the WCC would not go to a division model as 7 schools are in California and 5 are not.

In the event that BYU leaves to join the Big 12 then Seattle could finally come back as school #12.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:24 pm 
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I really just was going to post to say...

Fun fact I just learned. The WCC has been so stable that they didn't have member dues. The commisioner decided there should be a token gesture, so now each school pays $100 annually.


But reading some of the older posts with regard to Pacific.

There isn't an issue with the California/non-California divisional problems. Pacific was added mainly for travel partners to make scheduling easier than it was with nine schools and three groups of three (SoCal, NorCal, Other).

Travel partners in the 10-team WCC will be:
USF-SCU; PAC-SMC; GONZ-PORT, LMU-PEP; BYU-USD. One long trip, three short ones for everyone (and Port-Gonz is a medium sized one).

If they add Denver and Seattle (who aren't quite there yet in a competitive/facility regard), they simply go with NO divisions!
To figure out who plays home/homes with each other, you simply make a list of what makes sense and then add in some other games for travel partner purposes.

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