CAA Realignment

Quinn · **Joined:** Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am **Posts:** 3753

JPSchmack wrote:

Fresno St. Alum wrote:

JPSchmack wrote:

accseahawk wrote:

vcu and gmu may be learning from charlotte that life in the a10 is not all its cracked up to be for large public schools in the south. more than likely though, the primary lack of movement is from the a10 not being able to guarantee vcu and gmu enough of a short term gain financially. the tv contract is up and their is no guarantee on what kind of exposure and financials the a10 can provide vcu and gmu. plus the a10 is always going to run the risk of being a big east breakups feeding grounds.

Most likely, it's that these things always take time. Whether it's time in public, or time in private. even though it was completely private with no leaks, the WCC/Pacific deal still was a four-month process.

What's their to learn from Charlotte? Charlotte looking into other conferences has nothing to do with the A-10, but their FBS aspirations. Something VCU and George Mason do not share.

-- unrelated, but I find it quite amusing that Charlotte and Saint Louis entered the A-10 with nine total NCAA bids in the previous 10 years out of C-USA (supposedly a "Better league" than the A-10), and in seven seasons in the A-10, Charlotte and Saint Louis have combined for ONE bid in the A-10. Perception is awesome, isn't it? -- Either way, I don't care who you are, if you don't have a football team at all, the best non-football league you can be in is the Atlantic 10.

They both told me they lost all their recruits when they dropped to the A10 :twisted:

Seriously I can't explain it. That was the best CUSA ever was too. Marquette, Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis, UAB

That's a load of crap.

#1 - CUSA and the A-10 were vying for the title of "best non-BCS conference." With the top of CUSA going to the Big East, the A10 became the best of non-BCS conference.

#2 - Who'd they lose the recruits to? The peer groups for each institution are:
SLU:
Georgetown, Villanova, Notre Dame, Seton Hall, St. John's, Providence (already in a better league and getting better recruits);
DePaul, Marquette (NCAA Tournament teams in 2003, getting better recruits anyway)
Xavier, Dayton, Saint Joe's (already in the A-10, so conference affiliation ain't scaring them away)
MVC schools (already in a worse league).

Charlotte:
Memphis, UAB, So Miss, ECU, UCF, etc (in a league now worse than the A-10)

#3 - Conference affiliation is a reason schools release kids from NLIs.

#4 - The move wasn't effective for two years. During which time, the A-10 had the #2 team in the country and put TWO into the Elite Eight, including a St. Joe's team that was ranked #1 in the country during the 2004 season. That would help their recruiting far more than hurt it.

#5 - In the time between the announcment and the move to the A-10, Charlotte made the NCAA Tournament out of C-USA in the final season of the old alignment. They made the dance in 2004 and 2005. They returned their best play for their first season in the A-10 and three starters while adding a pair of impact players (Goldmire and Alexander).

What hurt Charlotte and Saint Louis was the A-10 scheduling policy which was horrible and misguided under Linda Bruno (and against the wishes of the ADs from Xavier and Dayton, two of the top three programs in the league).

#6 - If St. Bonaventure can get guys to make TWO NCAA tournaments in the last 12 years out of the A-10; and Saint Joe's can reach #2 in the country and have a 27-0 regular season before the start of the A-10 tourney, I think Saint Louis and Charlotte would have no problem getting the recruits they need to be successful in that league.

Indeed, great points. It's a foolish comparison to look at CUSA that WAS (with Louisville, Cincinnati...with Huggins then, Maquette...a final four school then, a stronger DePaul program then, and USF) and the CUSA that WAS after those schools left. Memphis was the only program to do anything since that 2006 season, when all the CUSA schools left for the Big East.

CUSA at-large bids:
2006: 1
2007: 0
2008: 0
2009: 0
2010: 1
2011: 1
2012: 1
Total: 4

A-10 at-large bids:
2006: 1
2007: 1
2008: 2
2009: 2
2010: 2
2011: 2
2012: 3
Total: 13

I mean, come on. If it were close, it would be a fun discussion. But Charlotte and St. Louis have not gotten bids, because their programs themselves haven't been as good. It's that simple.

Both schools have had coaching changes: St. Louis brought in a name coach in Rick Majerus, yet it took from 2007 until 2012 to get a bid in the A10. Charlotte fired Bobby Lutz in 2010. But if you are going to look at recruiting at Charlotte, and it's demise, one HAS to look at the most obvious change: from 2003 to 2005, they had THE best recruiter in the DC/VA area, one of the best in the country, with former Niner, Delonte Hill. What year did Hill leave? 2005. What were Charlotte's BEST years under Lutz? 2003-2005. When Hill left, they stopped getting recruits. That is why their recruiting dropped...because they lost their recruiter. It's a fact that cannot be omitted.

Fresno St. Alum · **Posted:** Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:40 pm

JPSchmack wrote:

Fresno St. Alum wrote:

JPSchmack wrote:

accseahawk wrote:

vcu and gmu may be learning from charlotte that life in the a10 is not all its cracked up to be for large public schools in the south. more than likely though, the primary lack of movement is from the a10 not being able to guarantee vcu and gmu enough of a short term gain financially. the tv contract is up and their is no guarantee on what kind of exposure and financials the a10 can provide vcu and gmu. plus the a10 is always going to run the risk of being a big east breakups feeding grounds.

Most likely, it's that these things always take time. Whether it's time in public, or time in private. even though it was completely private with no leaks, the WCC/Pacific deal still was a four-month process.

What's their to learn from Charlotte? Charlotte looking into other conferences has nothing to do with the A-10, but their FBS aspirations. Something VCU and George Mason do not share.

-- unrelated, but I find it quite amusing that Charlotte and Saint Louis entered the A-10 with nine total NCAA bids in the previous 10 years out of C-USA (supposedly a "Better league" than the A-10), and in seven seasons in the A-10, Charlotte and Saint Louis have combined for ONE bid in the A-10. Perception is awesome, isn't it? -- Either way, I don't care who you are, if you don't have a football team at all, the best non-football league you can be in is the Atlantic 10.

They both told me they lost all their recruits when they dropped to the A10 :twisted:

Seriously I can't explain it. That was the best CUSA ever was too. Marquette, Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis, UAB

That's a load of crap.

#1 - CUSA and the A-10 were vying for the title of "best non-BCS conference." With the top of CUSA going to the Big East, the A10 became the best of non-BCS conference.

#2 - Who'd they lose the recruits to? The peer groups for each institution are:
SLU:
Georgetown, Villanova, Notre Dame, Seton Hall, St. John's, Providence (already in a better league and getting better recruits);
DePaul, Marquette (NCAA Tournament teams in 2003, getting better recruits anyway)
Xavier, Dayton, Saint Joe's (already in the A-10, so conference affiliation ain't scaring them away)
MVC schools (already in a worse league).

Charlotte:
Memphis, UAB, So Miss, ECU, UCF, etc (in a league now worse than the A-10)

#3 - Conference affiliation is a reason schools release kids from NLIs.

#4 - The move wasn't effective for two years. During which time, the A-10 had the #2 team in the country and put TWO into the Elite Eight, including a St. Joe's team that was ranked #1 in the country during the 2004 season. That would help their recruiting far more than hurt it.

#5 - In the time between the announcment and the move to the A-10, Charlotte made the NCAA Tournament out of C-USA in the final season of the old alignment. They made the dance in 2004 and 2005. They returned their best play for their first season in the A-10 and three starters while adding a pair of impact players (Goldmire and Alexander).

What hurt Charlotte and Saint Louis was the A-10 scheduling policy which was horrible and misguided under Linda Bruno (and against the wishes of the ADs from Xavier and Dayton, two of the top three programs in the league).

#6 - If St. Bonaventure can get guys to make TWO NCAA tournaments in the last 12 years out of the A-10; and Saint Joe's can reach #2 in the country and have a 27-0 regular season before the start of the A-10 tourney, I think Saint Louis and Charlotte would have no problem getting the recruits they need to be successful in that league.

Does the little twisted face and me saying seriously I can't explain the reason they fell off? somehow mean I think the current CUSA is even close to A-10? I guess I'll have to put (JUST KIDDING) like that! I said Charlotte and St.Louis were good when CUSA was at its best in bball. What's weird is that after they leave to the A10 which is similar to the old CUSA (talent wise) that had Cincy, Louisville, Marquette, Memphis and UAB, they all of a sudden started sucking.

Quinn · **Joined:** Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am **Posts:** 3753

Fresno St. Alum wrote:

JPSchmack wrote:

Fresno St. Alum wrote:

JPSchmack wrote:

accseahawk wrote:

vcu and gmu may be learning from charlotte that life in the a10 is not all its cracked up to be for large public schools in the south. more than likely though, the primary lack of movement is from the a10 not being able to guarantee vcu and gmu enough of a short term gain financially. the tv contract is up and their is no guarantee on what kind of exposure and financials the a10 can provide vcu and gmu. plus the a10 is always going to run the risk of being a big east breakups feeding grounds.

Most likely, it's that these things always take time. Whether it's time in public, or time in private. even though it was completely private with no leaks, the WCC/Pacific deal still was a four-month process.

What's their to learn from Charlotte? Charlotte looking into other conferences has nothing to do with the A-10, but their FBS aspirations. Something VCU and George Mason do not share.

-- unrelated, but I find it quite amusing that Charlotte and Saint Louis entered the A-10 with nine total NCAA bids in the previous 10 years out of C-USA (supposedly a "Better league" than the A-10), and in seven seasons in the A-10, Charlotte and Saint Louis have combined for ONE bid in the A-10. Perception is awesome, isn't it? -- Either way, I don't care who you are, if you don't have a football team at all, the best non-football league you can be in is the Atlantic 10.

They both told me they lost all their recruits when they dropped to the A10 :twisted:

Seriously I can't explain it. That was the best CUSA ever was too. Marquette, Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis, UAB

That's a load of crap.

#1 - CUSA and the A-10 were vying for the title of "best non-BCS conference." With the top of CUSA going to the Big East, the A10 became the best of non-BCS conference.

#2 - Who'd they lose the recruits to? The peer groups for each institution are:
SLU:
Georgetown, Villanova, Notre Dame, Seton Hall, St. John's, Providence (already in a better league and getting better recruits);
DePaul, Marquette (NCAA Tournament teams in 2003, getting better recruits anyway)
Xavier, Dayton, Saint Joe's (already in the A-10, so conference affiliation ain't scaring them away)
MVC schools (already in a worse league).

Charlotte:
Memphis, UAB, So Miss, ECU, UCF, etc (in a league now worse than the A-10)

#3 - Conference affiliation is a reason schools release kids from NLIs.

#4 - The move wasn't effective for two years. During which time, the A-10 had the #2 team in the country and put TWO into the Elite Eight, including a St. Joe's team that was ranked #1 in the country during the 2004 season. That would help their recruiting far more than hurt it.

#5 - In the time between the announcment and the move to the A-10, Charlotte made the NCAA Tournament out of C-USA in the final season of the old alignment. They made the dance in 2004 and 2005. They returned their best play for their first season in the A-10 and three starters while adding a pair of impact players (Goldmire and Alexander).

What hurt Charlotte and Saint Louis was the A-10 scheduling policy which was horrible and misguided under Linda Bruno (and against the wishes of the ADs from Xavier and Dayton, two of the top three programs in the league).

#6 - If St. Bonaventure can get guys to make TWO NCAA tournaments in the last 12 years out of the A-10; and Saint Joe's can reach #2 in the country and have a 27-0 regular season before the start of the A-10 tourney, I think Saint Louis and Charlotte would have no problem getting the recruits they need to be successful in that league.

Does the little twisted face and me saying seriously I can't explain the reason they fell off? somehow mean I think the current CUSA is even close to A-10? I guess I'll have to put (JUST KIDDING) like that! I said Charlotte and St.Louis were good when CUSA was at its best in bball. What's weird is that after they leave to the A10 which is similar to the old CUSA (talent wise) that had Cincy, Louisville, Marquette, Memphis and UAB, they all of a sudden started sucking.

St. Louis losing Marquette and DePaul definitely hurt. But getting Xavier and Dayton helped. The problem being, that until this year, St. Louis couldn't even compete with those two midwest schools.

Charlotte is more clear cut. They had one of the best recruiters in the country and after 2005, he left for Kansas St. Charlotte took a step back, Lutz fired, Major brought in from Ohio St.

JPSchmack · **Joined:** Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:21 pm **Posts:** 851

Fresno St. Alum wrote:

Does the little twisted face and me saying seriously I can't explain the reason they fell off? somehow mean I think the current CUSA is even close to A-10? I guess I'll have to put (JUST KIDDING) like that! I said Charlotte and St.Louis were good when CUSA was at its best in bball. What's weird is that after they leave to the A10 which is similar to the old CUSA (talent wise) that had Cincy, Louisville, Marquette, Memphis and UAB, they all of a sudden started sucking.

I didn't interpret your smilie face correctly. But even if I did, you know I'd have said all that stuff anyway!

It's funny how perception works. The A-10 and CUSA were peers:

1996-2005
CUSA: 39 NCAAs (8 S16, 3 EE, 2 FF)
A10: 33 (7 S16, 6 EE, 1 FF)

That's really close. Especially if you consider how perception influences at-large bids.

C-USA was perceived to be a much better league because their marquee teams were the top dogs in their markets, while Temple, Saint Joe's, Xavier, GW and UMass were basically the "second schools" in their market (to Villanova, Cincinnati, Georgetown, Boston College).

C-USA was more top-heavy, and the A-10 was deeper. Some of SLU, Charlotte and UAB's success in C-USA was because the top three (out of Cincy, Louisville, Marquette, Memphis or DePaul) were strong enough that it carried in the #4 or #5 team.
Very similar to how Richmond made the dance in 2004 on the strength of Saint Joe's, Dayton and Xavier. Richmond was 1-5 vs the "Big Three" of the A-10 that year, and 1-5 vs Top 50 teams OOC. But their computer numbers were great, they had a pair of marquee wins (Xavier, Kansas), and they went 17-1 vs everyone else.

So when SLU and Charlotte go to the A-10, and the league is deeper but without flag-bearers that are as good, and they finish lower in the standings than they did in C-USA and don't make the dance. Saint Louis has been 7-9 or better in the A-10 every year, with a third and fourth place finish and not made the dance until this year.

If it was recruiting woes, it's the perception of being "Stuck in a lower league" (which isn't true) that hurt SLU and Charlotte more than actually moving to the A-10.

I can understand the fans mindset of "hey, this sucks." There were A LOT of Richmond fans who were pissed when the Spiders left the CAA for the A-10. No brainer for their administration, but their season ticket sales plummeted. They wanted to see the rivalries. But 2004 won them over. They realized that they would NOT host three ranked teams in CAA, and NOT get an at-large without the A-10 that year.

Far too many people realize that Conference re-alignment is a two-way street. It's not "what do they bring to the conference" but "what they can do in the conference."

I'm seeing it now on CAA boards (lots of GMU/VCU fans would be against a move to the A-10) and the Gonzaga board (overwhelmingly against adding Pacific).

A better conference opens doors and makes a program better. If you're a good program prior to joining a better conference, you can go to new heights in a new conference (See USF for prime example).

accseahawk · **Posted:** Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:55 pm

To get this thread back on track...I really hope Charleston and Davidson will consider the CAA. I would love to see the CAA add Stony Brook to replace Ga St. and then Charleston and Davidson to replace GMU and VCU. This would allow the CAA to maintain their reputation as the premier mid major basketball conference while solidifying itself on the FCS landscape. The north south divisional alignment will be really nice and simple for scheduling too. As a package deal and with a solid south division to minimize travel I think it would have to be appealing to the two SoCon schools. Plus ODU and Drexel are still in the CAA and I do believe the CAA could snag an extra bid every now and then with smart out of conference scheduling by schools who want to make a run.

Quinn · **Joined:** Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:05 am **Posts:** 3753

accseahawk wrote:

To get this thread back on track...I really hope Charleston and Davidson will consider the CAA. I would love to see the CAA add Stony Brook to replace Ga St. and then Charleston and Davidson to replace GMU and VCU. This would allow the CAA to maintain their reputation as the premier mid major basketball conference while solidifying itself on the FCS landscape. The north south divisional alignment will be really nice and simple for scheduling too. As a package deal and with a solid south division to minimize travel I think it would have to be appealing to the two SoCon schools. Plus ODU and Drexel are still in the CAA and I do believe the CAA could snag an extra bid every now and then with smart out of conference scheduling by schools who want to make a run.

Ideally, I'd like to see it a step further south:

Appalachian St. to replace GA St., and Charleston and Davidson to replace VCU and GMU:

Northeastern
Hofstra
Drexel
* Delaware
* Towson
* JMU
* ODU
* W&M
UNCW
* App St.
Davidson
Charleston

But yes, App St. is expected to pass and SB to accept. Coastal Carolina is another option to strengthen the south.

Fresno St. Alum · **Posted:** Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:32 pm

Quinn remember last year on the FCS board when I said that the CAA could get raided by the A10 soon and everyone told me I'm dumb and that VCU and GMU's 2 final four runs were better than a lifetime of A10 talent/depth and ncaa bids. I think you were the only one that came on there and agreed w/ me.

accseahawk · **Posted:** Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:40 pm

i would love app st too! i was trying to be fair to the northern schools though and divisional scheduling alignments with my stony brook add. For scheduling though it could still work too add 3 southern schools as the current scheduling format is really not that bad.

Fresno St. Alum · **Posted:** Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:56 pm

someone breakdown SoCon vs CAA. Is it like CUSA vs MWC(sideways) or is there a benefit of 1 vs the other? To me I woulda thought Charleston and/or Davidson woulda/shoulda taken a CAA invite back when they had GMU & VCU.

freaked4collegefb · **Joined:** Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:37 pm **Posts:** 7048

Couple of articles out of Virginia(previously posted in another thread)discussing possibility of a future A-10 raid of the CAA.Links at http://www2.timesdispatch.com/sports/20 ... ar-1858475
and at http://www.dailypress.com/sports/colleg ... 0918.story

accseahawk · **Posted:** Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:26 pm

Fresno St. Alum wrote:

someone breakdown SoCon vs CAA. Is it like CUSA vs MWC(sideways) or is there a benefit of 1 vs the other? To me I woulda thought Charleston and/or Davidson woulda/shoulda taken a CAA invite back when they had GMU & VCU.

A very easy way to look at it is the SoCon's top priority has always been FCS football while the CAA's top priority has always been success in the basketball tournament. Every year, the CAA office, from the commissioner down has a stated goal of making the CAA a multibid league. Steps have been taken to motivate members to make the a reality (things like the CAA's financial incentive that gives more money to those who meet certain benchmarks in basketball). No such mindset exists in the SoCon. They have always been a football oriented conference and will likely always be that way. So, for schools like Davidson and CoC, where basketball is the top priority, it makes sense to join a conference where basketball is given the top billing.

CoC has denied the CAA twice before, but both of those denials were before the breakthrough year of 2006, where the CAA finally began to get the credit it deserved. I would really hope that both Davidson and CoC would look at their opportunity to possibly become the new GMU and VCU. Yes, the travel would increase, but it really would not be that bad with a divisional scheduling alignment. Also, the upside is much greater and the new tv contract with NBC Sports will allow for more exposure on television than the SoCon could ever provide. Both schools have reached their maximum potential in the SoCon and I would hope that something could be worked out to get them on board in the CAA to fill in the likely spots of GMU and VCU

tute79 · **Joined:** Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:25 pm **Posts:** 1491

CAA was 12, lost Georgia State, could lose GMU, VCU, ODU.

Conference is shrinking, perhaps to 8, and FB conf. is shring as well.

My thoughts - leave the SoCon alone (it appears fairly stable).
Expanding southward may only be of interest to UNCW.
Maybe they would be better served if they left and joined SoCon or Big South.

I say talk merger with AE conference. Could then split the teams into roughly equal north / south divisions. Both parts would have critical mass.

This would pull maine and UNH (affiliate FB members now) into the CAA.
Stony Creek (now affiliate member of Big South FB) would play FB in CAA.
Consider inviting Youngstown State (only Horizon League MVFC member to become CAA affiliate FB member.

I think this would solve CAA's membership situation.

Fresno St. Alum · **Posted:** Wed May 02, 2012 2:28 pm

GMU isn't going to the A10

http://www.eyesradio.com/2012/52-breaki ... o-the-a10/

mizzoufan1 · **Joined:** Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:51 am **Posts:** 96

Fresno St. Alum wrote:

GMU isn't going to the A10

http://www.eyesradio.com/2012/52-breaki ... o-the-a10/

That is a huge break for the Colonial. They had to have someone stop the bleeding for them...

freaked4collegefb · **Joined:** Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:37 pm **Posts:** 7048

Article out of Richmond(previously posted in another thread)discussing "possibility" of A-10 still adding VCU and George Mason sometime in the future.Link at http://www2.timesdispatch.com/sports/sp ... ar-1886814

CAA Realignment

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