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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:18 pm 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
JPSchmack wrote:
So where should VCU and GMU be?


They should be where they want to be, not where a financial plan says where they should be.

I think GMU knows they can move out whenever, with the right allies in place in other conferences. If they don't go through it now, I think they stay so that the CAA can get its footing, then go. And again, it's the smart and responsible move. It's professional and in good moral standing to do so. Don't burn any programs that might become your travel partners in the future. Set a good example.


Where they want to be, is where the A-10 already is.

GMU can't move out whenever. Not for greener pastures, guaranteed.

How is it responsible to blow an opportunity that's in your best interest? I would imagine the incoming GMU president who favors the CAA is a lot like the Richmond fans who were upset about leaving the CAA for A-10 in 2001. But I envision their AD handing him a report, saying read it, and the President saying "Ah, I get it. Yeah, we're better off in the A-10."

And it's about a lot more than a "fianancial plan."

Leaving a conference isn't burning the other members. Not in this situation when there is such a diverse group like the CAA. I'm all for moral standing. This isn't a situation with right and wrong. Conferences are not a moral obligation.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:00 am 
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I don't necessarily disagree with the heart of the argument: GMU and VCU would be great additions to the A-10 and would be mutually beneficial for both the conference and respective programs. I just disagree that these teams should leave a conference that they helped to form and strengthen just because of market research and "a bottom line." There's a lot of history and unity between these programs, and some execute decisions differently than others. Diplomacy.

I disagree with this false sense of dread and urgency that any program should leave at the drop of a hat for fear of what might just become later on down the line.

I also disagree that VCU and GMU, both public schools, fit what the A-10 is or will be. They are in the minority, and would soon find themselves even further marginalized as public school members (I give UMass five or six more years in the A-10, tops) "move on" to follow their football budget. And the A-10 is really no different than CAA in having programs sponsoring football or not. There's no reason to believe a move from CAA to the A-10 now would be any more or less secure ten years from now if schools like Duquesne, URI, Richmond, Butler, Fordham, and Dayton take a more FBS-like philosophy on all-sports conferences.

The CAA isn't dead...yet. No need to leave it in the dust for the sake of self-preservation.


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:34 am 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
The Bishin Cutter wrote:
JPSchmack wrote:
So where should VCU and GMU be?


They should be where they want to be, not where a financial plan says where they should be.

I think GMU knows they can move out whenever, with the right allies in place in other conferences. If they don't go through it now, I think they stay so that the CAA can get its footing, then go. And again, it's the smart and responsible move. It's professional and in good moral standing to do so. Don't burn any programs that might become your travel partners in the future. Set a good example.

That usually is not on the list of things to worry about when switching conferences.


And that is a problem


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 9:54 am 
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Article out of Richmond discussing A-10 realignment situation at http://www2.timesdispatch.com/sports/20 ... ar-1889976


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 10:11 am 
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Lenn Robbins update on A-10 situation at http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/college/ ... Basketball


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 1:25 am 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
I don't necessarily disagree with the heart of the argument: GMU and VCU would be great additions to the A-10 and would be mutually beneficial for both the conference and respective programs. I just disagree that these teams should leave a conference that they helped to form and strengthen just because of market research and "a bottom line." There's a lot of history and unity between these programs, and some execute decisions differently than others. Diplomacy.

I disagree with this false sense of dread and urgency that any program should leave at the drop of a hat for fear of what might just become later on down the line.

I also disagree that VCU and GMU, both public schools, fit what the A-10 is or will be. They are in the minority, and would soon find themselves even further marginalized as public school members (I give UMass five or six more years in the A-10, tops) "move on" to follow their football budget. And the A-10 is really no different than CAA in having programs sponsoring football or not. There's no reason to believe a move from CAA to the A-10 now would be any more or less secure ten years from now if schools like Duquesne, URI, Richmond, Butler, Fordham, and Dayton take a more FBS-like philosophy on all-sports conferences.

The CAA isn't dead...yet. No need to leave it in the dust for the sake of self-preservation.


I appreciate some of your points, but disagree on some of the implications/insinuations.

To say GMU and VCU would be jumping ship because of "the bottom line" is disingenuous.

Take a look at Pacific for a second: They were the founder of the Big West and have carried the flag for that conference since UNLV and company left. They have history and unity in the Big West with the other members. Without Pacific as a northern presence, Davis wouldn't be in the conference when they came up from D-II. But when the WCC called, they didn't think twice. It's a matter of "Who are we?" and Pacific has always been a WCC school. They formed the Big West because the WCC didn't sponsor football (Pacific is essentially a founding member of the WCC, The Big West, AND the new guy in the WCC all at the same time). The Big West's reaction was "that's a great fit for them, we wish them well."


It isn't just a cash-grab for TV revenue between CAA and A-10. It's about similarity in athletic programs. The CAA is a tweener. It doesn't know if it's a football conference or a basketball conference. VCU and Mason are basketball schools. The A-10 is a basketball school. The CAA isn't a Southern or Virginia conference any more. It used to be with members in MD, VA and NC only. Then they added GA ST, Towson, Hofstra and Northeastern.

GMU and VCU doesn't know which direction the CAA is going to go in: Football or basketball.

That's not a sense of dread. A sense of dread over that would be if they had an invite from the MAAC. This is the A-10. Who can get on AVERAGE what the CAA has in at-large bids TOTAL in the last 18 years.

This isn't about MONEY, it's about NCAA Tournament access. And that's something you kind of owe to your student-athletes: The opportunity to compete for a championship as much as possible.


The fact that GMU and VCU are public and much of the A-10 is not isn't really a factor. Yes, there are public schools (and yes, UMass is pursuing FBS, you're right, they're not long for the league). But UMass also hasn't been an NCAA tournament team in hoops since the days of Marcus Camby.

There really isn't a public/private schism. The differences between public/private is tuition (recruiting) and roster size in non-revenue sports. URI and UMass are usually near the top of the Commission's Cup standings because they do well in the non-revenue spring sports. The power of the A-10 (Xavier, Dayton, Temple) focus on fall sports (volleyball and soccer).


What makes the A-10 good is a shared commitment. And that commitment is to basketball.
There is nothing more important in the A-10 than men's basketball.

The A-10 "football schools" consist of UMass (FBS aspirations), Richmond and URI (FCS), Dayton, Butler, and Duquesne (non-scholarship and Fordham (FCS). Only URI really has the ability to CONSIDER FBS football.

Dayton's athletics department is self-sustaining, with a budget of about $15 million. Their football program loses $2 million a season. Adding scholarship football would cost them $8 million a season (not counting the facilities needed).

Dayton plays in a "stadium" owned by Dayton Public Schools. The team doesn't even use the stadium's locker rooms they are so bad. Their locker room is in the basketball arena and they walk across the parking lot.

Their old AD did a study on dropping football and the only reason they didn't is because of the affect dropping football would have. They realized that 1/3 of their donor base was former football players or football season ticket holders and they didn't want to piss them off and have an Evansville situation (Where athletics donations dropped 25% and male applications dropped 40%). The AD tried to blackmail the president into having the University give athletics $1 million a year to keep football. He didn't bite. They are NOT going FBS. Not unless they suddenly go UCLA and make 14 straight Final Fours.

Butler and Duquesne are in the exact same boat as UD. Old football stadiums that do the job for games.

Fordham plays men's basketball in the oldest gym in the country. They can't drop $50 million on a new basketball arena, but they could build an FBS worthy football stadium? Not happening.

The A-10 are BASKETBALL SCHOOLS. George Mason and VCU are BASKETBALL SCHOOLS. That's what makes it a perfect fit. That's why the A-10 is interested in them and not, say, Coastal Carolina or Austin Peay.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 2:33 am 
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JP, non CAA fans and non FCS fans know A10 is a better place to be than the CAA. Think of it this way, you are telling them your kid is cuter than their kid. They'll have a hard time agreeing w/ you. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 8:13 am 
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Again, I don't disagree that VCU and GMU shouldn't join the A-10. An A-10 fan myself, I know these two programs, with Butler, instantly boost the conference to make up for the losses of Temple and Charlotte. They are good fits.

To me, I can't agree with the logic when Charlotte departs a better basketball conference for a bigger, but lesser one. They dumped a ton of money for football, not having played a down, and are going straight into C-USA for all sponsored sports. Why? Why couldn't Charlotte do something like Temple was doing and UMass will soon be doing by putting football into one conference while "protecting" basketball? Or, Richmond, a founding CAA member who parks their football there but puts basketball in the better A-10? Is it because Charlotte was a founding member of C-USA? If the latter is true, then it's here where I come from regarding GMU and VCU. That it's not always about making the right or best decisions for programs or athletes, but out of institutional cooperation, relationships, and history...

...or it's politics. Who knows...maybe the hold-up is nothing about loyalty and everything about pressure from the capitol to stay with each other as much as possible, leaving nobody behind or alone for themselves. This is the same state that kind of forced the ACC to take a pretty unworthy Virginia Tech (at the time, at least). ODU was moving with a fury, only to slow the pace. JMU's been in talks for years without action. Now we have VCU and GMU doing the same? I don't know.

Do you think URI was wrong to move its football out of CAA?


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 10:53 am 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
Why couldn't Charlotte do something like Temple was doing and UMass will soon be doing by putting football into one conference while "protecting" basketball? Or, Richmond, a founding CAA member who parks their football there but puts basketball in the better A-10? Is it because Charlotte was a founding member of C-USA?

Charlotte wanted to park their football in the CAA as Richmond does. Charlotte asked about becoming a football member only of the CAA. Tom Yeager said "All sports only."

I don't think Charlotte had a realistic expectation of being able to follow UMass's path either. UMass had a solid history of success at the FCS level and provides an under-served market. Even then UMass' membership is/was contingent on Temple. I think it remains to be seen if UMass gets to continue in the MAC or not.

So Charlotte was faced with joining a low level FCS league or trying to be an independent at the FCS level. Neither of those options was an express lane to the FBS, which is what the fans and administration wanted. When you combine this with the fan base blaming the A-10 for the woes of their men's basketball, the decision to take Charlotte to CUSA is not difficult.

I think an interesting question is: did Tom Yeager overplay his hand taking football from the A-10? Did he continue to overplay his hand by playing hardball with Charlotte?


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 2:28 pm 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
Again, I don't disagree that VCU and GMU shouldn't join the A-10. An A-10 fan myself, I know these two programs, with Butler, instantly boost the conference to make up for the losses of Temple and Charlotte. They are good fits.

To me, I can't agree with the logic when Charlotte departs a better basketball conference for a bigger, but lesser one. They dumped a ton of money for football, not having played a down, and are going straight into C-USA for all sponsored sports. Why? Why couldn't Charlotte do something like Temple was doing and UMass will soon be doing by putting football into one conference while "protecting" basketball? Or, Richmond, a founding CAA member who parks their football there but puts basketball in the better A-10? Is it because Charlotte was a founding member of C-USA? If the latter is true, then it's here where I come from regarding GMU and VCU. That it's not always about making the right or best decisions for programs or athletes, but out of institutional cooperation, relationships, and history...

...or it's politics. Who knows...maybe the hold-up is nothing about loyalty and everything about pressure from the capitol to stay with each other as much as possible, leaving nobody behind or alone for themselves. This is the same state that kind of forced the ACC to take a pretty unworthy Virginia Tech (at the time, at least). ODU was moving with a fury, only to slow the pace. JMU's been in talks for years without action. Now we have VCU and GMU doing the same? I don't know.

Do you think URI was wrong to move its football out of CAA?

Charlotte had to go, they got to do a rare double jump into a decent conf. Not many schools moving from FCS get to skip playing in the SBC, MAC, WAC. They did. So did ODU. UTSA went to the little guy conf but it died and they found a home in CUSA, however they'll still play 1 year of WAC fb.

If they can't compete and NEC allowed a max of what 45-50 schollies instead of 63, I guess it's the right move or they risk shutting down fb like Hofstra and N'eastern who didn't have that choice because they're full CAA members and couldn't just play NEC fb.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 4:31 pm 
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I think likewise, GMU and VCU "have to go"

When you look at it, the worst the Atlantic 10 is going to be in the future is going to be the #2 basketball-only conference in the eastern half of the USA (#3 overall). The only way it isn't going to remain the top one is if the Big East splits and another hoops-only conference forms above it (with the 7 BE Hoops Only's adding Xavier, Dayton, plus).

At worst, you're trading schools like Drexel for a school like St. Joe's. And historically, what's SJU been compared to the rest of the CAA? GMU and VCU had great NCAA tournament runs. SJU was #2 in the country for a while and made the Elite Eight.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Article out of Hampton Roads discussing "possible" A-10 expansion this week as both VCU and George Mason have board meetings later this week.Link at http://weblogs.dailypress.com/sports/et ... rence.html


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:33 am 
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If VCU and GMU are so worried about the Big East splitting along basketball lines, it's even MORE of a reason to go to the A-10.

#1 - You secure your future. If the Big East doesn't steal members, you're in the best league possible.

#2- If the A-10 IS raided soon, you're just going to end up with those schools anyway. You might as well go now and cash in as members of a multi-bid league now before it happens.

A Big East raid would leave the A-10 with eight schools. Since 2000, they'd have 12 NCAA bids -- St. Joe's (4), Richmond (3), GW (3), St. Bona (2); Duquesne, Fordham, LaSalle, Rhode Island (0)

The rest of CAA in that scenario would have 4 -- Wilmington (4); James Madison, Northeastern, Drexel: 0

GMU and VCU would bring their own to either group. An eight-team A-10 is also probably going to invite VCU, GMU, Wilmington and Hofstra.

What's the plan for usurping the A-10 if they get raided? Invite Richmond, St. Joe's, St. Bona, GW, URI and Duquesne to go with GMU, VCU, Hofstra, Drexel, Northeastern and Towson (ditching Fordham and LaSalle)? Nothing prevents the two groups from doing that at any time. You're probably better off ditching NE and Towson with Fordham and LaSalle and letting both the A-10 and CAA fold as you create the ECC.

#3 - What if the Big East split doesn't happen for a long time? All your usurping plans can fall through if the Big East DOESN'T take all 4-5 A-10 members. What if they only take Xavier and Dayton to maintain a 5-4 East power base?

You're better off in the higher league by NCAA bids NOW and dealing with the fallout of a Big East split from within it's confines later.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:57 am 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
The Bishin Cutter wrote:
Again, I don't disagree that VCU and GMU shouldn't join the A-10. An A-10 fan myself, I know these two programs, with Butler, instantly boost the conference to make up for the losses of Temple and Charlotte. They are good fits.

To me, I can't agree with the logic when Charlotte departs a better basketball conference for a bigger, but lesser one. They dumped a ton of money for football, not having played a down, and are going straight into C-USA for all sponsored sports. Why? Why couldn't Charlotte do something like Temple was doing and UMass will soon be doing by putting football into one conference while "protecting" basketball? Or, Richmond, a founding CAA member who parks their football there but puts basketball in the better A-10? Is it because Charlotte was a founding member of C-USA? If the latter is true, then it's here where I come from regarding GMU and VCU. That it's not always about making the right or best decisions for programs or athletes, but out of institutional cooperation, relationships, and history...

...or it's politics. Who knows...maybe the hold-up is nothing about loyalty and everything about pressure from the capitol to stay with each other as much as possible, leaving nobody behind or alone for themselves. This is the same state that kind of forced the ACC to take a pretty unworthy Virginia Tech (at the time, at least). ODU was moving with a fury, only to slow the pace. JMU's been in talks for years without action. Now we have VCU and GMU doing the same? I don't know.

Do you think URI was wrong to move its football out of CAA?

Charlotte had to go, they got to do a rare double jump into a decent conf. Not many schools moving from FCS get to skip playing in the SBC, MAC, WAC. They did. So did ODU. UTSA went to the little guy conf but it died and they found a home in CUSA, however they'll still play 1 year of WAC fb.

If they can't compete and NEC allowed a max of what 45-50 schollies instead of 63, I guess it's the right move or they risk shutting down fb like Hofstra and N'eastern who didn't have that choice because they're full CAA members and couldn't just play NEC fb.



I agree that Charlotte had to make the jump...no choice as it's now or never. And to even get a chance at a more desirable conference, they need to take the first step.

That said, while CUSA is a better conference than the others mentioned and a nice jump from FCS...we must remember that this is not the CUSA we knew. It's not the 1996 CUSA, fresh off it's launch. It's not the CUSA from even last year. It's a CUSA that lost UCF, Houston, SMU and Memphis, replacing those schools with 2 Sun belt schools, 2 WAC schools (one being a new football program with no history), and Charlotte...with FCS (and new program) ODU expected to be the other addition...or MTSU, another SB school as #14.

The CUSA that Charlotte is joining is closer to the Sun Belt of today (or last year) in quality. Still a better spot in CUSA, but not a huge gain.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 2:14 pm 
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The Dagger's Five Questions for VCU/GMU considering the A-10.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the ... 05338.html


JP's Five Answers
1. Is BS I've disproven a number of times in this thread.

2. St. Bona finished tied for third in the regular season standings last season, and they had two of their top seven guys play a total of eight games. They have the lowest budget in the conference. The A-10 is deep, but wide open. The reason to make the move is because most the A-10 teams win their OOC games, making it a strong league. There's no one on a team-by-team basis that "Final Four" programs like VCU and GMU can't compete with. VCU's owned the series with Richmond since the Spiders went to the A-10, and Richmond's got three NCAA bids in that span as an A-10 team. Last 5 years, VCU is 7-2 vs the A-10 (mostly vs GW) and GMU is 4-5 (1-3 vs Dayton). If "oh, the league would be too hard to succeed in" is the problem, then you're just accepting your lot in life as a small-time player. The idea is that by increasing conference, you increase exposure and RECRUITING and BECOME BETTER THAN BEFORE.

3. Rivalries? The cross-town rivals of GMU and VCU are in the A-10 already. And if ODU goes to CUSA, you got one rival left, JMU. Whom you can play OOC.

4. Being the Top Dog on NBC Sports is nice. But as the NHL found out, ESPN will ignore anyone without an ESPN deal.

5. ODU is gonna go C-USA, because they'd also be stupid not to. You snooze, you lose. Ask Holy Cross.

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