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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:22 pm 
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LOL, where's MizzouFan to respond further to these questions?
Truthcounter is correct in that Mizzou's fb reputation is not the greatest. That would be decades comparisons to programs such as Alabama, LSU, USC, Texas, Nebraska, etc. But Mizzou has had their moments, retain good ingredients, hang in the ball park, and show a decent package of assets. Right now, they may have the SEC's best basketball.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:36 pm 
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sec03 wrote:
LOL, where's MizzouFan to respond further to these questions?
Truthcounter is correct in that Mizzou's fb reputation is not the greatest. That would be decades comparisons to programs such as Alabama, LSU, USC, Texas, Nebraska, etc. But Mizzou has had their moments, retain good ingredients, hang in the ball park, and show a decent package of assets. Right now, they may have the SEC's best basketball.

You want a response from me...here it is. I totally agree that Mizzou football in the 80's and 90's was horrible at BEST! Historically, Mizzou has had four "dominant" decades in football: 1920's, 1940's, 1960's & 2000's. The Tigers were AWFUL in the 1900's, 1910's, 1930's, 1980's & early 1990's. They were competative in the 1930's, 1950's, 1970's & late 1990's. The other kicker is this...Mizzou's Athletic Department has had to be self sustaining (i.e. not getting ANY general funds from the University) and having to PAY the University for Athletic Scholarships since the 70's! (We had a real B**** of a President at the time and she HATED athletics and forced that separation). While NU and OU were building "great" athletic programs, Mizzou was stuck trying to keep its AD on the level. If you notice when Mizzou "caught up" is when those Universities FORCED their AD's to do the same in the late 90's/early 2000's (remember OU's $50 Million dollar AD debt when it hired Joe Castiglione away from MU?).

Anyway, Mizzou wants to win NC's. Will it? it may, but most likely not. Will the Tigers be competative in the SEC. I really believe YES! But we have to start somewhere...

Regarding the Big Ten. They screwed themselves when they chose NU over us. They took the "National" football brand and are going to be stuck with NU when its Football brand erodes and becomes like Iowa or Minnesota is now. There is simply not enough bodies in the state of Nebraska to sustain any kind of success. If the Big Ten had just thought about it for more than Football, they would have gotten a state that is actually growing population, two major TV markets in StL & KC and a University that has ZERO threat of losing its AAU status. But it didn't happen and now the B1G is going to be stretching to maintain a relavence in Football over the next couple decades while Mizzou can actually say it might become better than most B1G teams in that time span.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:13 pm 
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mizzoufan1 wrote:
sec03 wrote:
LOL, where's MizzouFan to respond further to these questions?
Truthcounter is correct in that Mizzou's fb reputation is not the greatest. That would be decades comparisons to programs such as Alabama, LSU, USC, Texas, Nebraska, etc. But Mizzou has had their moments, retain good ingredients, hang in the ball park, and show a decent package of assets. Right now, they may have the SEC's best basketball.

You want a response from me...here it is. I totally agree that Mizzou football in the 80's and 90's was horrible at BEST! Historically, Mizzou has had four "dominant" decades in football: 1920's, 1940's, 1960's & 2000's. The Tigers were AWFUL in the 1900's, 1910's, 1930's, 1980's & early 1990's. They were competative in the 1930's, 1950's, 1970's & late 1990's. The other kicker is this...Mizzou's Athletic Department has had to be self sustaining (i.e. not getting ANY general funds from the University) and having to PAY the University for Athletic Scholarships since the 70's! (We had a real B**** of a President at the time and she HATED athletics and forced that separation). While NU and OU were building "great" athletic programs, Mizzou was stuck trying to keep its AD on the level. If you notice when Mizzou "caught up" is when those Universities FORCED their AD's to do the same in the late 90's/early 2000's (remember OU's $50 Million dollar AD debt when it hired Joe Castiglione away from MU?).

Anyway, Mizzou wants to win NC's. Will it? it may, but most likely not. Will the Tigers be competative in the SEC. I really believe YES! But we have to start somewhere...

Regarding the Big Ten. They screwed themselves when they chose NU over us. They took the "National" football brand and are going to be stuck with NU when its Football brand erodes and becomes like Iowa or Minnesota is now. There is simply not enough bodies in the state of Nebraska to sustain any kind of success. If the Big Ten had just thought about it for more than Football, they would have gotten a state that is actually growing population, two major TV markets in StL & KC and a University that has ZERO threat of losing its AAU status. But it didn't happen and now the B1G is going to be stretching to maintain a relavence in Football over the next couple decades while Mizzou can actually say it might become better than most B1G teams in that time span.


Glad you responded, Mizzoufan1. Your familiarity and fan interest offers an appreciable perspective.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:12 pm 
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If the ACC vs Maryland lawsuit favors Maryland, I can see the B1G grabbing Virginia and U. North Carolina. Any objections? Or do you think that the B1G still has Notre Dame in their sights as the 'Final Solution' (read - school to get here)?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:57 pm 
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NorwichCat11 wrote:
If the ACC vs Maryland lawsuit favors Maryland, I can see the B1G grabbing Virginia and U. North Carolina. Any objections? Or do you think that the B1G still has Notre Dame in their sights as the 'Final Solution' (read - school to get here)?


I don't mean to offend, but there's a willing suspension of disbelief in these B1G-raids-ACC rumors, and it's that every ACC school put their name on that lawsuit against UMD. Thinking UMD is going to just say "hey, no worries, we're cool" just because they will all get so rich beyond their dreams is not going to get play. EVERY ACC school that stays in the fight against UMD is going to have to have to hope 13 schools will just be peachy-keen on them, because they're already going into membership discussions down one, and have some explaining to do about how they can interact with other schools in the future.

If more B1G-ACC movement is to be had, watch the lawsuit and who drops from it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:57 pm 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
NorwichCat11 wrote:
If the ACC vs Maryland lawsuit favors Maryland, I can see the B1G grabbing Virginia and U. North Carolina. Any objections? Or do you think that the B1G still has Notre Dame in their sights as the 'Final Solution' (read - school to get here)?


I don't mean to offend, but there's a willing suspension of disbelief in these B1G-raids-ACC rumors, and it's that every ACC school put their name on that lawsuit against UMD. Thinking UMD is going to just say "hey, no worries, we're cool" just because they will all get so rich beyond their dreams is not going to get play. EVERY ACC school that stays in the fight against UMD is going to have to have to hope 13 schools will just be peachy-keen on them, because they're already going into membership discussions down one, and have some explaining to do about how they can interact with other schools in the future.

If more B1G-ACC movement is to be had, watch the lawsuit and who drops from it.


I think UNC, UVa, GT and Duke are all B1G possibilities. If the B1G decides to go to 20 it will be because of Notre Dame is #19. FSU (5.5 million cable subscribers), BC (Boston market and Irish may want) or Kansas (AAU) will be #20.

If the SEC takes 2 from the group of UNC, UVa and Duke, I do not see the B1G going pass 18.

There are several possibly scenarios for both the B1G and SEC from the group above.

I could easily see UNC, UVa, GT and Duke to the B1G but then again I could easily see UNC, Duke, UVa and Virginia Tech to the SEC also.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:27 am 
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seanbo wrote:
I think UNC, UVa, GT and Duke are all B1G possibilities. If the B1G decides to go to 20 it will be because of Notre Dame is #19. FSU (5.5 million cable subscribers), BC (Boston market and Irish may want) or Kansas (AAU) will be #20.

If the SEC takes 2 from the group of UNC, UVa and Duke, I do not see the B1G going pass 18.

There are several possibly scenarios for both the B1G and SEC from the group above.

I could easily see UNC, UVa, GT and Duke to the B1G but then again I could easily see UNC, Duke, UVa and Virginia Tech to the SEC also.


The quality is certainly there in those four ACC schools as B1G material...I just see the lawsuit as a sizable obstacle for relations and negotiations. I know it's only my opinion, but I've held that the UMD move had a lot to do with how "kicked around" they were in the ACC. Geographic outlier, no historically specific rivals, the league's growth and the impact on UMD's major sports...the ACC wasn't great to one of its original members. The lawsuit is salt on those wounds. Is it in UMD's interest to be a silenced child in the B1G when so much of the conference's new revenue stream will be due in large part to what UMD's membership and location means to it? I don't think any supposedly approached ACC school has a conversation without the subject of dropping from the lawsuit against UMD as a priority.

It is a conflict of interest until it is resolved. It will be a 500-pound-gorilla-in-the-room thereafter.

But maybe more pressing to the B1G's possible expansion plans is trying to keep the peace with the PAC. I don't doubt the B1G expanded because the PAC-swap was nixed the way it was...but the B1G pressing onward to 16+ only complicates the deal all the more down the line. And I think the B1G would rather have that merger in place than acquiring two more programs not named Notre Dame or Texas.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:44 pm 
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If the B1G really seeks to be 18, I'd say have Notre Dame (all-sports), Syracuse, Pitt, and BC. That would leave the B12 alone, and take essentially newcomers from the ACC.

Let Virginia and NC schools be, unless the aim is to destroy the ACC or turn it into another lame BE.

The ACC can then add Cincy, UCONN, or if they must, Temple.

The ACC could survive even if the SEC added FSU. But if the B1G and/or SEC ventured into the States of NC and VA, that shall end the ACC as we know it.

I am one that still believes in geographical reasoning, and nearby schools play the guys down the road with sensible road trips for all the sports teams. But expansion has turned to the amount of TV dollars newbes' bring in, while making the competition more weak and fewer in plausible numbers and strength.

I don't like the chipping away stuff, present the INTENT. Of course the ACC did to the BE basically what others may do further to them. If schools get heck-bent on leaving with financial enticements that are hard to ignore, it's going to be an unending game across the board.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:11 am 
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sec03 wrote:
If the B1G really seeks to be 18, I'd say have Notre Dame (all-sports), Syracuse, Pitt, and BC. That would leave the B12 alone, and take essentially newcomers from the ACC.

Let Virginia and NC schools be, unless the aim is to destroy the ACC or turn it into another lame BE.

The ACC can then add Cincy, UCONN, or if they must, Temple.

The ACC could survive even if the SEC added FSU. But if the B1G and/or SEC ventured into the States of NC and VA, that shall end the ACC as we know it.

I am one that still believes in geographical reasoning, and nearby schools play the guys down the road with sensible road trips for all the sports teams. But expansion has turned to the amount of TV dollars newbes' bring in, while making the competition more weak and fewer in plausible numbers and strength.

I don't like the chipping away stuff, present the INTENT. Of course the ACC did to the BE basically what others may do further to them. If schools get heck-bent on leaving with financial enticements that are hard to ignore, it's going to be an unending game across the board.




For a long time, I felt the same, that northeast schools would be key. But with Rutgers and nearby Maryland added, it gives the Big Ten some access to NY and DC, which are the 2 more important cities for the sport in the region. I would think that the long term benefits of being in the south would be greater...via schools like Virginia, UNC, GA Tech and a 4th like Vanderbilt, Duke, or even an FL school like Miami or FSU.

But I guess the best benefit might be to look at a balance of the two. Maybe the Big Ten could benefit from adding 3 from the south like UVA, UNC and GA Tech and opting for a 4th like Syracuse or Boston College. I think Notre Dame is the best fit, but their avoidance of full membership has been pretty consistant.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:41 am 
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ESPN article with comments from Big Ten Commish regarding various topics.He says that his league is not currently focused on league expansion.Link at http://m.espn.go.com/ncf/story?storyId=8842536


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:02 pm 
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Quinn wrote:
sec03 wrote:
If the B1G really seeks to be 18, I'd say have Notre Dame (all-sports), Syracuse, Pitt, and BC. That would leave the B12 alone, and take essentially newcomers from the ACC.

Let Virginia and NC schools be, unless the aim is to destroy the ACC or turn it into another lame BE.

The ACC can then add Cincy, UCONN, or if they must, Temple.

The ACC could survive even if the SEC added FSU. But if the B1G and/or SEC ventured into the States of NC and VA, that shall end the ACC as we know it.

I am one that still believes in geographical reasoning, and nearby schools play the guys down the road with sensible road trips for all the sports teams. But expansion has turned to the amount of TV dollars newbes' bring in, while making the competition more weak and fewer in plausible numbers and strength.

I don't like the chipping away stuff, present the INTENT. Of course the ACC did to the BE basically what others may do further to them. If schools get heck-bent on leaving with financial enticements that are hard to ignore, it's going to be an unending game across the board.




For a long time, I felt the same, that northeast schools would be key. But with Rutgers and nearby Maryland added, it gives the Big Ten some access to NY and DC, which are the 2 more important cities for the sport in the region. I would think that the long term benefits of being in the south would be greater...via schools like Virginia, UNC, GA Tech and a 4th like Vanderbilt, Duke, or even an FL school like Miami or FSU.

But I guess the best benefit might be to look at a balance of the two. Maybe the Big Ten could benefit from adding 3 from the south like UVA, UNC and GA Tech and opting for a 4th like Syracuse or Boston College. I think Notre Dame is the best fit, but their avoidance of full membership has been pretty consistant.


They need to create a presence where there are deep pockets of alumni. They got that with UMD and Rutgers, and if the PAC thing ever goes through, they'll bridge that span. They should bite the bullet and pursue some of those areas that won't add much eyes, but would strengthen the geographical feel of the conference: Syracuse, Kansas, and Missouri. Outside of that, it's foreign soil...although I'm sure you can find little groups in Texas, Boston, and maybe the Orlando-Tampa corridor.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:18 pm 
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freaked4collegefb wrote:
ESPN article with comments from Big Ten Commish regarding various topics.He says that his league is not currently focused on league expansion.Link at http://m.espn.go.com/ncf/story?storyId=8842536


So, at least new catch phrases are in vogue. "Continuing to monitoring the landscape" has turned into "inactive but alert". And, it's so nice to hear "not deaf tone" about the somewhat silly divisional labels of Legends and Leaders.

Maybe expansion focused analogies shall evolve into "vultures circling a crippled rabbit".

Conferences such as the B1G and the SEC are the movers and shakers and DEFINE the outlays. Conferences down-the-line are certainly the reactionaries, but pace-setter conferences have been doing way more than monitoring others; and moves by only a couple of their big-time peers can prompt them to act, in the event the given conference hasn't taken the aggressive initiatives themselves.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:25 pm 
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As we all know, the B1G is an athletic conference and an academic association, which just happens to have their own network. Based on the wealth and prestige of the B1G, it may be the holy grail of all conferences for any FBS institution of higher learning east of the Rockies. There is another perk that comes with joining the B1G: Membership to the Committee on Institutional Cooperation (CIC). Consider that that the B1G might generate ~$40 Million or so per school per year when the new TV contracts are signed, while at the University of Wisconsin alone, academic research pulls in a bit short of $1 Billion per year. The CIC is the academic arm of the B1G and is not just a prestigious club, like the AAU. There are tangible research benefits to be had from CIC membership.

As commish of this amalgamation, Mr. Delany is looking to boost the dollars coming into his conference and increase the prestige of the association, as well as stoke his massive ego as the "king" of conference hill. Thus, the driving factors in expanding the B1G beyond 14 members are, in no particular order:

A. Academic Standing which can be measured by AAU membership.
B. National Brand (called the "it factor")
C. Market Size

Academic Standing is hard to quantify, but efforts have been made in this area. This post will cite the US News and World Report Rankings as a benchmark. This is not to say that the USN&WR Rankings are accurate or the only source, but we will go with it here. For reference, here are the USN&WR Rankings and state populations (Source: 2010 US Census) of the present membership of the B1G:

Northwestern 12 12,830,632 (shared with U of Illinois)
Michigan 29 9,883,640 (shared with Michigan St.)
Wisconsin 41 5,686,986
Illinois 46 12,830,632 (shared with Northwestern)
Penn State 46 12,702,379
Ohio State 56 11,536,504
Maryland 58 5,773,552
Purdue 65 6,483,802 (shared with U of Indiana)
Minnesota 68 5,303,925
Rutgers 68 8,791,894
Iowa 72 3,046,355
Michigan State 72 9,883,640 (shared with U of Michigan)
Indiana 83 6,483,802 (shared with Purdue)
Nebraska 101 1,826,341

So for academics, the average B1G school has a USN&WR Ranking of ~58 and all schools other than Nebraska are AAU members. The B1G Footprint can draw on a population of 83,866,010 or roughly 6 Million people per school.

I think Delany has several targets in mind, namely:

Virginia: AAU Member and a USN&WR Ranking of 24 and a population of 8,001,024
North Carolina: AAU Member and a USN&WR Ranking of 30 and a population of 9,535,483

These two are almost no brainers to add. UNC may present a "tag along" issue in that they would only join if Duke came along for the ride. Here are Duke's Numbers:

Duke University: AAU Member and a USN&WR Ranking of 8 and a population of 9,535,483, shared with UNC. Awesome academics and a national brand in Basketball. Would become the B1G's "Northwestern University of the South", and I think NU would not mind having another private school join the fold.

Delany takes all three and is at 17. The next target is easy, and needs no discussion:

Georgia Tech: AAU Member and a USN&WR Ranking of 36 and a population of 9,687,653

So we sit at 18. A good number, but not enough to satiate Mr. Delany's appetite. He wants to get into Florida and its huge population of 18,801,310 which would be the largest state population in the inflated B1G, but this presents a bit of a conundrum. Florida State and Miami University would be there for the taking as the ACC crashes and burns with the SEC poaching a couple of schools (North Carolina State and Virginia Tech, for the sake of argument).

There may be another option. Could Delany entice the U. of Florida to leave the SEC to join the expanded B1G? The dollars would be there to match, if not exceed what the SEC could offer, and there is the attraction of B1G academic prestige. Would this be enough to pull Florida out of the SEC? Florida may demand that the U. of Georgia "tag along".

Here are the specifics on the candidates:

University of Miami: NOT an AAU Member and a USN&WR Ranking of 44
Florida State: NOT an AAU Member and a USN&WR Ranking of 97
University of Florida: AAU Member and a USN&WR Ranking of 54
University of Georgia: NOT an AAU Member and a USN&WR Ranking of 63

Is the U. of Florida the biggest draw in the sunshine state? Debatable, but I think so. Any way you crack the Florida nut, you are going to have to take a non-AAU school. I would guess Delany makes the effort. Georgia is no slouch academically, but would also require two schools in Georgia. Not ideal, but if you are Delany, you do it!

The ACC is now in shambles, and the SEC and Big 12 plunder the left overs.

So here we stand at 20 schools. Is Delany done yet? Not quite. There is still the 600 pound gorilla in the room. Notre Dame.

With the ACC dismantled, they may finally see the handwriting on the wall and throw in the towel on football independence. ND would be the only Catholic school in the conference, and they may demand that Boston College come along with them. Fine, if that is what it takes. BC is a great school and adds a New England presence, but neither they nor ND are AAU members. I think that in Delany's fantasy world, they take both. As an added bonus, both ND and BC have great Hockey programs, which would take the B1G Hockey League to 8, which is the ideal number for such leagues. Don't want to debate College Hockey here, but it would be a plus. Here are the specifics on the two new Catholic members of the B1G:

Notre Dame: NOT an AAU Member and a USN&WR Ranking of 17 Population: Does not matter. National Brand.
Boston College: NOT an AAU Member and a USN&WR Ranking of 31 Population: 6,547,629

OK, so now we are at 22 members of the B1G. An OK number, but not quite ideal. Just a bit more fruit to pluck. The east coast is almost covered, but there would be a hole. The state of South Carolina (Population: 4,625,364). Here are the candidates:

Clemson: NOT an AAU Member and a USN&WR Ranking of 68
U. of South Carolina: NOT an AAU Member and a USN&WR Ranking of 115

Clemson is much higher on the USN&WR rankings and has great athletics. They get the nod. But now who would be number 24?

Here are some candidates:

Connecticut: NOT an AAU Member and a USN&WR Ranking of 63 Population: 3,574,097
U. of Missouri: AAU Member and a USN&WR Ranking of 97 Population: 5,988,927
U. of Kansas: AAU Member and a USN&WR Ranking of 106 Population: 2,853,118

All have issues. UConn is not an AAU member and Boston College has already sewed up New England. Kansas has the GOR and K-State tag along issues. That leaves Missouri, AAU member with a nice sized population. If Florida and Georgia leave the SEC, I think Missouri could overcome the bad taste of the Nebraska decision and join up.

OK, so now we have a 24 headed monster of a conference. 19 of 24 schools are AAU. Average USN&WR ranking drops from ~58 to 52ish. 18 State Footprint has a population of 147,053,400 increasing the average footprint population per school from 5.990 million to 6.127 million. The total Footprint Population does not even include New York State, and other states which are not home to B1G schools, but follow the B1G for FBS Football. Adding in those populations, you cover over HALF of the U.S. Population! Upcoming Television Deal would be in the Stratosphere. B1G Network payout makes Delany cry little green tears of joy. There are still details to work out though. How would you deal with a conference of this size? I have two proposals.

The first would be four "pods" of six schools each:

Pod #1:
Wisconsin
Nebraska
Northwestern
Iowa
Missouri
Minnesota

Pod #2:
Michigan
Ohio State
Michigan State
Indiana
Purdue
Illinois

Pod #3:
Penn State
Notre Dame
Rutgers
Maryland
Boston College
Virginia

Pod #4:
Florida
Georgia
Georgia Tech
North Carolina
Duke
Clemson

The Pods each would have at least a couple of strong schools at the top. They are somewhat balanced. I could see Michigan State slide from Pod 2 to Pod 1 in exchange for Northwestern to even things out, but any way you cut this, you are going to have to split either the Illinois or Michigan schools.

In the four pod solution, the top two rated schools would play in the B1G Championship Game, which could alternate between Indianapolis, Chicago, Charlotte and Atlanta, take your pick. After any schools are taken for the four school National Championship playoffs, the top rated school goes to the Rose Bowl, the next school would go to the Orange Bowl. With the ACC a smoldering wreck, the Orange Bowl settles on the second pick schools of the B1G and SEC. Each Pod member would play the other five members in the pod, and one school from each of the other three pods. Travel would not be outrageous.

Another option would be to make two separate, and almost independent conferences out to Pods 1 and 2, and pods 3 and 4. All schools would be members of the CIC, and Delany would be in charge of both conferences. All revenue (TV, BTN, Bowls...every last dime) would be shared equally between the 24 schools. There would be Championship Games between Pods 1 and 2 and between Pods 3 and 4. Rose Bowl gets choice of the Pods 1 and 2 conference, Orange Bowl gets choice of pods 3 and 4 conference. Of course, these choices would be made after any schools selected to play in the National Championship playoffs. Scheduling would include schools in your pod, as well as three from the other pod in your "conference". A game like Iowa vs. Maryland could be scheduled, but would be considered a non-conference game. You could even have a Bowl game which matches up a school from each of these independent conferences.

So I have laid this all out. Would this happen? Probably not. Here are some of the major issues I would foresee:

* Would the B1G take both North Carolina and Duke?
* Could the B1G snag any schools from the SEC?
* Would the B1G take both Georgia and Georgia Tech?
* Would the B1G take any schools other than Notre Dame who are not AAU Members?

Have I missed anything? Are there other schools which should be considered that I did not list?

This is truly a mind blowing scenario with huge potential benefits for all. Please kick this around and share your thoughts. No attacks please, I already know this is a far fetched plan. Please feel free to add to the benefits or describe other problems which I did not list. Have at it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:10 pm 
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Slide - Excellent post! I love your projected move to a 24 team conference for the B1G. This is a 'doable' situation if Delaney can get the schools to come on board. I agree with all of your roadblocks for it not happening. Another question is would the TV networks accept it? The idea of the B1G network covering half the U.S. would definitely put a scare into other networks. Could this be seen as a move to corner the market in college football TV and draw an antitrust suit?

Wow, yoou are really making me think on this one! Great job Slide!



Edit:Fixed your conference logo,Freaked


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:25 pm 
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Columbus Dispatch blog article with comments from OSU President regarding possible future Big Ten expansion at http://buckeyextra.dispatch.com/content ... going.html


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