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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:17 pm 
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I don’t believe the Big Ten has made any offers to ACC schools and U of Virginia and U of North Carolina are not forced to make a loyalty decision at the moment concerning leaving the ACC. The Big Ten has stated in several reliable publications the conference want to settle in with 14 before expanding again. Of course this could be based on the Maryland Law suit.

I also don’t believe the SEC or Big Ten care what either conference decision are made with expansion and are both primary concerned about duplicating current markets in those respective leagues. Why would or should the SEC care if the Big Ten expanded into Georgia . It would not impact the SEC bottom line and the SEC is not got to lose out to the Big Ten in requiting.

Florida State and Clemson should be thinking about the future because the Big 12 may not wait on expansion for the ACC to be raided again. Do you jump now and control decisions in a future league with expansion or wait and not have any choice.

The Big 12 could expand back to 12 for a championship game by expanding with Cincinnati and BYU. Cincinnati is pretty much as wash compared with Louisville and BYU has always been a potential Big 12 target..

North: WVU, Cincinnati, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, BYU

South: Texas, Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State

Once the Big Ten and SEC decide to raid the ACC, the Big 12 could be much more selective next cycle on which ACC schools get an invitation.

Since Cincinnati bridges the geographical gap with WVU and Iowa State and the Kansas schools, the Big 12 could take two ACC schools and two MWC schools in the future to reach 16 to provide better travel for BYU.

The Big 12 has one major advantage over the ACC and it is not just about football SOS. The Big 12 can expand into any direction and the ACC is landlocked in the east by the SEC to the south and the Big Ten to the north.

North: WVU, Cincinnati, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, BYU, UNLV?, Boise State?

South: Texas, Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Florida State?, Clemson?

The question that Clemson and Florida State officials should be asking themselves is what would be the risk if each school waits and there is not a better fall back opportunity in the Big 12 down the road.

It not a matter of if and just a matter of when the Big Ten moves south of Maryland or additional network benefits..


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:29 pm 
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BYU is not joining the B12.They want to be independent.

B12 is not after Boise St,they after FSU,Miami,Clemson big time football schools.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:58 pm 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
The ACC may be vulnerable around the edges, but who wants those edges, other than FSU and VT? I think the ACC would only care if VT left if FSU threw a hissy fit about it. FSU, we know, has had EVERY opportunity to leave the conference, and has acted on nothing.

Maybe Syracuse...but if the ACC needed them that bad, the conference should have told the Virginia legislature where to shove it back in '03. The B1G already house a "disgraced" former AAU school in Nebraska...no way does the B1G become a hospital by taking in Syracuse as well.

UMD was put out and neglected. The ACC had it coming to them when UMD walked. I don't see any other "core" member in this boat, though. NCSU and Clemson come to mind, but those aren't the chasers in the ACC. The SEC would rather have other schools, and the Big XII isn't worth it.

On the flip side, the Big XII is safest at its fringes (although Iowa State would bolt to the B1G before the question was even finished), and has a leaky core. I'm more curious how stable and legitimate the GoR is given that it was synced to this particular media deal. If the conference expands, can GoR dissolve because of the change of terms?


Good you mentioned FSU again here. A couple of years ago when FSU was having their former Board Chairman expressing dissatisfaction over the ACC TV financial package, I believe the ACC was the first to come up among the major conferences in the cycle of re-negotiating deals. Basically, FSU conveyed it was not enough. When the B12 did their negotiated package, the figures looked much better. But the B12 in their public relations releases, initially did not show all the breakdowns, and included lower down tier figures and their distributions still somewhat differ. But on the basic allotments from the TV/ESPN deal, the disparity was closer than stated.

When the ACC package gets negotiated again, they seek to have no more defections beforehand. Network competition/bidding would help if there. However, ESPN's agenda and loyalties could be suspect because they seem to be behind much of the super conference thrust. How ND impacts, given their own NBC contract, could be some factor.

FSU was having budget issues---ex-coach payoff included. Also, FSU appeared lashing out internally within the ACC because they had failed to win an ACC fb championship since 2005. That, of course, is different now. Even this past season with FSU included, the ACC poorly marketed its ACC championship game in Charlotte and literally tickets were almost being given away--- $3.00 and something. Part may be due to FSU having just lost to UF in the season finale; and the stumbling opponent was GT. The SEC CCG, by contrast, had a full-house with scalped tickets (allegedly).

Some of what FSU had been doing is posturing. They are not as historically or emotionally tied to the ACC as some of those further up the road. If matters fell a certain way, the SEC could drop the gentlemen's agreement about in-state additions--particularly involving Florida. FSU may indeed regret snubbing that SEC invite years ago and opting for the ACC.

How's that old soccer field in West Chester (or wherever) coming along for Villanova? Suprised that's not on a blog somewhere among B12 possibilities.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:23 am 
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louisvillecard01 wrote:
Some of what FSU had been doing is posturing. They are not as historically or emotionally tied to the ACC as some of those further up the road. If matters fell a certain way, the SEC could drop the gentlemen's agreement about in-state additions--particularly involving Florida. FSU may indeed regret snubbing that SEC invite years ago and opting for the ACC.


I agree. Unless it's the SEC, FSU is just going to be the grouchy ACC school. FSU voting against the buyout increase caused some smoke, but was sort of expected given what happened last year. Going in against UMD on the suit with the other schools, however...that's one of the tells they are bluffing.

Of course, if FSU is the school the B1G alluded to having turned down...

tute79 wrote:
POINT BEING - although the Virginia state government manipulated one vote in this process, what gets glossed over is that Duke's and UNC's "NO" vote made all that possible.


Yeah...I have to wonder how much Syracuse wants to be in the ACC. Is it as much as it used to be, or did the events that transpired tarnish their desire to be in it? I'm pretty sure the relationship with BC is still fractured (I find that subplot very intriguing), as well as there being a bit of a chill in the air with VT and UVA. Of all the schools in that '03 shuffle, Syracuse did everything the right way...and still got screwed.

Where it concerns Louisville...given UL sort of "butted in" on that conversation with the Big XII and campaigned against WVU, does WVU hold it against them if expansion talks start heating up again?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:41 pm 
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Again I agree with Lash (scary). IMO the B1G and SEC sit with 14 for years.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:35 pm 
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westwolf wrote:
Again I agree with Lash (scary). IMO the B1G and SEC sit with 14 for years.

Westwolf,
The one point that is missed many times on this board is the comments made by previous Big 12 Commissioner Neimis, when you expand to 14 your become unwieldy and when you expand to 16 you become two conference in one.

This above statement is so very true and could be the primary reason the SEC and Big Ten remain 14 for a very long time.

While it is fun to talk about pods and semi final and final conference football championship games, you are going to have a Wisconsin that does not want to have Ohio State and Michigan off the schedule for many years which result in two 8 team divisions or two conferences in one.

When the comment was made by Bowlsby compared with the Big Ten expansion of Maryland and Rutgers, sometimes you have to expand with schools that have potential to build up to that conference standards.

This would favor a decision to take Cincinnati and BYU to allow for the conference championship game.

BYU may have preferred independence to the horrible Big East hybrid idea, the Big 12 is a totally different situation. BYU has to compete with its in state neighbor U of Utah which means exposure and more importantly revenue and opportunity to reach the four team playoff.

Cincinnati has been one of the better Big East football programs over the years and is located in an excellent state for requiting and provides a close by rivalry with nearby WVU. From a geographical purpose, Cincinnati is better situated to bridge the gap with WVU compared with Louisville.

If I were the Big 12 would expand with both Cincinnati and BYU and see where things settle in the future.

If super conference mania becomes a reality, then the Big 12 is well situated to expand with two schools in the mountain west and two on the eastern seaboard.

North: Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, Cincinnati, WVU, BYU

South: Texas, Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor, Oklahoma State, Oklahoma

The north schools could receive a revenue travel allowance to compensate for the south schools having more regional games.

BYU is comparable to Texas A&M with its huge western LSD fan base

WVU is comparable to Nebraska in fan base and football tradition.

Cincinnati is not a flagship state school however the school has made several BCS bowl appearance where Missouri never reached a BCS bowl.

If you compare BYU, WVU, and Cincinnati to the old north replacements of Colorado, Missouri, and Nebraska, this idea would be an enhancement over the old north division.

I am sure the Pac 12 would prefer BYU over Colorado if not for the liberal aspects of the west coast. The Big 12 on the other hand does not have issues with religious affiliated schools.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:02 pm 
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lash wrote:
westwolf wrote:
Again I agree with Lash (scary). IMO the B1G and SEC sit with 14 for years.

Westwolf,
The one point that is missed many times on this board is the comments made by previous Big 12 Commissioner Neimis, when you expand to 14 your become unwieldy and when you expand to 16 you become two conference in one.

This above statement is so very true and could be the primary reason the SEC and Big Ten remain 14 for a very long time.

While it is fun to talk about pods and semi final and final conference football championship games, you are going to have a Wisconsin that does not want to have Ohio State and Michigan off the schedule for many years which result in two 8 team divisions or two conferences in one.

When the comment was made by Bowlsby compared with the Big Ten expansion of Maryland and Rutgers, sometimes you have to expand with schools that have potential to build up to that conference standards.

This would favor a decision to take Cincinnati and BYU to allow for the conference championship game.

BYU may have preferred independence to the horrible Big East hybrid idea, the Big 12 is a totally different situation. BYU has to compete with its in state neighbor U of Utah which means exposure and more importantly revenue and opportunity to reach the four team playoff.

Cincinnati has been one of the better Big East football programs over the years and is located in an excellent state for requiting and provides a close by rivalry with nearby WVU. From a geographical purpose, Cincinnati is better situated to bridge the gap with WVU compared with Louisville.

If I were the Big 12 would expand with both Cincinnati and BYU and see where things settle in the future.

If super conference mania becomes a reality, then the Big 12 is well situated to expand with two schools in the mountain west and two on the eastern seaboard.

North: Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, Cincinnati, WVU, BYU

South: Texas, Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor, Oklahoma State, Oklahoma

The north schools could receive a revenue travel allowance to compensate for the south schools having more regional games.

BYU is comparable to Texas A&M with its huge western LSD fan base

WVU is comparable to Nebraska in fan base and football tradition.

Cincinnati is not a flagship state school however the school has made several BCS bowl appearance where Missouri never reached a BCS bowl.

If you compare BYU, WVU, and Cincinnati to the old north replacements of Colorado, Missouri, and Nebraska, this idea would be an enhancement over the old north division.

I am sure the Pac 12 would prefer BYU over Colorado if not for the liberal aspects of the west coast. The Big 12 on the other hand does not have issues with religious affiliated schools.


Lash, that is sensible and pragmatic. Any major conference, no matter what position of adoration it may be in, and the pressures therein (TV contracts, marketing, recruiting, bowl deals, subduing competition, and so forth), have to consider not getting too big too fast. Even the mighty can take hard falls.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:48 am 
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Just my opinion but I think B1G goes to 16 (Virginia & GT) by this summer or whenever Maryland suit is settled, not as confident that SEC expands because I'm not sure UNC will be willing to leave the ACC.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:26 pm 
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Seanbo, just when I suggest a simple approach to expansion for the Big 12 by taking BYU and Cincinnati, you bring us all back to reality. The reason folks think my post are scary because expansion is very scary and unpredictable.

The Big Ten expansion to 16 is defiantly the wild card that will obviously cause more dominos to fall.

Duke basketball coach has been on the defense all winter of potential further raids on the ACC, so everyone in the leadership of the ACC is very concerned.

If Virginia were a school to bolt for the Big Ten, Virginia Tech would not wait around for the ACC to crumble and would most likely jump to the SEC at first opportunity.

If the Big Ten expands, the SEC will follow. Is it the blind leading the blind or more like keeping up with the Jones!!!!!

I do believe the SEC wants Duke and North Carolina. The last thing the SEC needs is more football schools so both Duke and North Carolina enhance basketball and TV viewers as well as academics.

Less say Virginia and Georgia Tech are off to the Big Ten and Virginia Tech is on the phone to the SEC, the SEC could play some major politics to get the schools the conference desire and want.

The SEC could reach out to Duke an North Carolina and let them know the SEC is expanding to 16 and were going after Virginia Tech and North Carolina State if both of you do not want to join. If NC State is not interested and wants to remain with the four NC ACC schools, then we will go after East Carolina to get into the North Carolina markets. This would be a disaster to the four NC schools to allow East Carolina to gain access to the exposure and revenue might of the SEC.

It the same approach the ACC used in getting schools to jump from the Big East. Pick four or five school from a list and you have divided and conquered because schools do not want to be left out in the cold and have to look out for themselves. Loyalty is an afterthought.

Should the Big Ten strike again, the ACC is in really big trouble. The ACC should have never touched Notre Dame without a full commitment!!!

SEC will follow the Big Ten lead as the conference has never contained less football programs for the power leagues. History will most likely repeat itself with the SEC.

This is where its gets very interesting concerning the Big 12. It would have been interesting to be a fly on the way in last week’s meeting to understand the contingency plans of the Big 12.

Is the plan to expand to 12, 14, or jump right into a super conference of 16 members.

If the above dominions were to occur, the Big 12 would have its pick of the ACC litter.

Expanding to 16 may be a much easier decision. Florida State, Miami, Clemson, Virginia Tech, North Carolina State and Pitt just stand out from the rest of the crowd.

My guess is the Big 12 would take a conservative route and expand to 12. The championship game would absorb some of the cost of expansion.

So Florida State is the most likely or obvious choice for number 11, which school gets the pick for 12 should the Big 12 limit expansion to just 12 for now?

Louisville? Big 12 already passed on this school once before.

Clemson? Remember if the ACC is raided, Florida State will have very little bargaining power on which school is selected for 12.

Virginia Tech? Possibly!

North Carolina State? Possibly!

Pitt? Possibly!

Miami? Possibly!

Again it would have been interesting to have been a fly on the way in last week’s Big 12 expansion discussions and contingency planning meetings.

I would not be surprised to see Florida State as full member and Notre Dame back on the table as a partial member of the Big 12 should the ACC become very unstable with another Big Ten raid.

If the Big 12 is successful in getting the NCAA to reduce the number of full members required to allow for a conference championship and the Big Ten raids the ACC, the following would very much a possibility:

East: Florida State, WVU, Kansas, Kansas State, Iowa State, Notre Dame(Partial member and ND keeps its NBC contract)

West: Texas, Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State.

East would take the highest ranked team or Notre Dame to play the west division champ to advance to the four team playoff. Remember a Big Ten raid and Florida State not longer controls its own destiny.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:03 pm 
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lash wrote:
The ACC should have never touched Notre Dame without a full commitment!!!


When the ACC BIG EASTIZED (new word for Webster's) themselves, I expected trouble would follow.

Hearing some ACC sources, they still think ND shall fully embrace them in fb. But the ACC has already handed out all their cookies for ND.

Of course the Big Ten has their own record of enabling activites in behalf of Notre Dame.

I have to hand it to ND, they are way smarter than multiple officials from several of these conferences that have tried all kinds of failed techniques to lure them.

Maybe ND should remain independent in fb, not because their fb is above all others, but because they continue to persistently outwit all their not-so-clever pursuers.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:21 pm 
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sec03 wrote:
Maybe ND should remain independent in fb, not because their fb is above all others, but because they continue to persistently outwit all their not-so-clever pursuers.


They will help themselves to a very generous pot of revenue once working with the ACC, but the B1G took a little sparkle out of that spectacle when it snatched a founding ACC member no less than a few months after this big deal happened. And I have to believe losing UMD will hurt renegotiating some. UL isn't valuable to anyone other than its fans, so whatever the ACC gets with ND now, ND folks are going to have to ask the hard question of how much more they could have gotten had UMD still been included in the calculations.

I sort of hope the B1G swipes Pitt from the ACC just for good measure, locking the ACC out of the PA-NJ-MD territory. Not only would it hurt the ACC's visibility in the region, but it would crush Notre Dame's recruiting reach. And the sick thing is, the B1G need only to ask Pitt. ND would be pretty much powerless to do anything about it, and if UMD can leave the ACC for less than 52m, Pitt's likely able to leave for just the $2m membership fee. How much does the Big East owe Pitt at this point for buyouts and mbb tournament appearances?

Meanwhile in the B12, if they could only concede to replay rights to BYU...


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:05 pm 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
sec03 wrote:
Maybe ND should remain independent in fb, not because their fb is above all others, but because they continue to persistently outwit all their not-so-clever pursuers.


They will help themselves to a very generous pot of revenue once working with the ACC, but the B1G took a little sparkle out of that spectacle when it snatched a founding ACC member no less than a few months after this big deal happened. And I have to believe losing UMD will hurt renegotiating some. UL isn't valuable to anyone other than its fans, so whatever the ACC gets with ND now, ND folks are going to have to ask the hard question of how much more they could have gotten had UMD still been included in the calculations.

I sort of hope the B1G swipes Pitt from the ACC just for good measure, locking the ACC out of the PA-NJ-MD territory. Not only would it hurt the ACC's visibility in the region, but it would crush Notre Dame's recruiting reach. And the sick thing is, the B1G need only to ask Pitt. ND would be pretty much powerless to do anything about it, and if UMD can leave the ACC for less than 52m, Pitt's likely able to leave for just the $2m membership fee. How much does the Big East owe Pitt at this point for buyouts and mbb tournament appearances?

Meanwhile in the B12, if they could only concede to replay rights to BYU...


A true Penn Stater suggesting Pitt? Uhhh, just kidding. Understand your point. Geographically, outside the new markets which get so much focus, Pitt is right in there in a hub city. I'd like to see Ohio State get a little more recruiting competition. Adding Pitt may help; and Cincy moving up to a bigger league could be a bigger help. Thinking about it B12?

It would be ironic if the B1G did take Pitt due to constraining ND efforts. Pitt's been a staple on the ND schedule, & Pitt preferred (before the ACC invite) to keep ND and dump the popular backyard brawl with WVU.

The ACC losing charter member Maryland does hurt. Perceptually, it is a big loss. However, under the circumstances, Louisville was a good addition for the ACC. Their facilities and sports programs are currently very competitive, and the ACC does reach a bit westward into northern Kentucky. While their appeal is limited mostly to their fan base, exposure is expanded and there are other ACC schools that may have more limited appeal than L'ville while factoring in success and potential. For hard-core fb & bb fans nationally, the name Louisville is recognized, and folks shall watch though many having no emotional attachment to the school. Miami achieved such.

I have not reviewed the details of all the recent signings per recruiting. I have heard ND sources say they get a major portion of its top recruits from the south. That may be part of the motive for agreeing to 5 ACC fb games per year; though bb-plus was the driving factor.

Per the B12, negotiating terms with BYU for certain re-play rights as to potential membership would not seem out of the ordinary. The B12 has the history of being the kingpin for having internal side deals with certain members and a prior distribution system that was not equivalent.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:51 am 
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The B1G has sort of peripherally challenged Notre Dame ever since the acquisition of PSU. ND and PSU share a modest rivalry. ND and Nebraska have a bit of history. Of course, there's Purdue, Michigan, and Michigan State...Northwestern's in there, too. But the UMD acquisition is the latest little jab to the Irish, as UMD was one of the few ACC programs that had "established" ties to the Irish. Not as established as BC, Pitt, or Wake (in recent years), but more than, say, Duke and VT. Not playing an ACC-UMD program means the only look-in to the Beltway is with Navy, but that series travels all over the area. NYC is still accessible by means of Army and Syracuse, but if the B1G took either Pitt or 'Cuse, the mystique sort of diminishes. College football in the northeast is Pitt and Penn State. Keep those two together, and everything else is irrelevant, including the "draw" of Notre Dame.

I'd say the biggest failure of college athletics is how geographical, academic, and athletic rival schools are not in the same conference. No acquisition will make the Big XII better than the one in College Station that got away, as it is in the B1G with Pitt and Missouri, as it was in the Big East with the SA's and PSU, BYU in the PAC, FSU in the SEC, and WVU in the ACC after it absorbed the rest of their rival schools.

With BYU, ESPN itself might be the stumbling block for a B12 union. I suspect a solution can be found, but what will be in it for ESPN, especially if they hold most of the cards?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:32 am 
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I concur that the B12 will eventually go to 12. The real questions then becomes who and when. I don't see BYU, they are just too happy trying to become the Notre Dame of the west. I can see Cincinnati, but they are probably a lot lower on the 'radar' than the big ACC schools. The problem is if the B12 goes after any ACC schools, they might as well get six in one go and get to sixteen with an east/west conference split. This was mentioned in an earlier post on this thread and is the best choice to make. However we must keep in mind that the B12 does not want to expand if they don't have to. They even tried to get a CCG with only a ten team conference! This is a grand display giving an example of the B12 being the last conference to be proactive for expansion. They will end up with the 'table scraps' from the leftovers that the B1G and SEC leave them.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:40 pm 
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NorwichCat11 wrote:
I concur that the B12 will eventually go to 12. The real questions then becomes who and when. I don't see BYU, they are just too happy trying to become the Notre Dame of the west. I can see Cincinnati, but they are probably a lot lower on the 'radar' than the big ACC schools. The problem is if the B12 goes after any ACC schools, they might as well get six in one go and get to sixteen with an east/west conference split. This was mentioned in an earlier post on this thread and is the best choice to make. However we must keep in mind that the B12 does not want to expand if they don't have to. They even tried to get a CCG with only a ten team conference! This is a grand display giving an example of the B12 being the last conference to be proactive for expansion. They will end up with the 'table scraps' from the leftovers that the B1G and SEC leave them.


Deep down, I believe BYU will only join the PAC. BYU-B12 should have happened years ago, like it was supposed to before Texas politics forced Baylor and Tceh into the mix. I think the Coogs have been writing their PAC acceptance story for decades, and I'm sure it's filled with the sort of crazy that comes with that territory. The sort of stuff that's filled with the pride of an unwillingness to compromise (they call it "conviction"), persecution, patience...the whole time they are the victim, never mentioning how they hurt others in their path to get to where they ultimately wanted to be. Don't know if it would give their creator the warm and fuzzies, but maybe Ayn Rand.

Naturally, stuff is brimming from the West Virginia boards (where else, eh?) concerning the latest: Ollie hinting at expansion, and, the real topper: some hillbilly got a copy of the B12's GoR via Oklahoma open-record laws! Of course, naturally, they can't post it, because they don't have access to any modern technology and surely the file was Xerox'd and never PDF'd, but that hasn't stopped anyone from speculating on what's in it and taking the OP's word as gospel truth. It also never crossed anyone's mind to just write it out (it's said to only be "five pages" with "ten for signatory purposes"), but no...of course it's the typical glue-huffing sociopathic antics; truly sensationalistic crap.


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