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 Post subject: Summit League Expansion
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:40 pm 
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tute79 wrote:
I really did not understand Trev Alberts killing off UNO's FB program either, I was hoping that UNO and North Dakota could become MVFC #11 & 12.

I think we're forrgetting Western Illinois. I don't see them being invited to MVC or Horizon, so I thik they'll be staying in the Summit. And they do play Football.

It's really hard to picture the Montana schools leaving the Big Sky for the Summit. Not happening....
(sort of an insane move, that we should not expect, even though UMKC just made a "downhill" move).
If the Big Sky were to add the 3 Dakota schools somehow, and then split into divisions, OK... Then I could see them placed with the 4 Dakota schools.

UNO would have needed to add at least 78 scholarships if they kept football - FCS has 63 scholarships compared to 24 for Division II. I understand the Mavs were drawing about 3000 a game in football, so it really didn't make sense to make the additional investment. There would also be the challenge of trying to find appropriate women's sports to match the new football scholarships, with very few nearby opponents in sports like field hockey and women's lacrosse. UNO was already struggling to meet the proportionality test for Title IX as a D-II school with football.

Dropping football may have also made it easier to get consent of the Nebraska legislature dominated by UNL.

If the Montana schools and UND did join the Summit, the MVFC would survive with seven members:

Missouri State
Northern Iowa
Illinois State
Southern Illinois
Indiana State
Western Illinois
Youngstown State


Last edited by wbyeager on Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:36 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Like your idea on this one Muskie. But I had something similar about this, which is related with the Summit (the fb-playing schools to the MVC and the non-fb schools to the Horizon), and I post it on a different sub-forum or topic.

You mean the idea I wrote 2 posts above his...lol.

No disrespect ncaa2000 but your idea was to for the fb schools to team up and leave the bball schools as is. While I understand this has the same end result, the motives behind it are vastly different as it would be ridiculous for Northern Iowa or Missouri State to divorce themselves from bball powerhouses Wichita St or Creighton just because.

After thinking this out I think the following is more likely to happen than a split which is a longshot at best as the MVC is a great brand.

We're assuming that sh*t rolls downhill, so if the Catholic 7 decides to just grab 10 (as their TV money doesn't increase by adding 2) and takes Butler, Xavier, and Richmond (current fave over VCU) that leaves SLU and Dayton in the A10 way out in left field.

To keep those two Western members happy the A10 would most likely expand with more Western members and take Creighton (MVC) Witchita St (MVC) both great bball schools and Detroit (Horizon) for the market.

The MVC which was 5 fb schools and 5 nonfb schools (counting non-scholarship Drake as non fb) is now 5 fb to 3 non fb so they decide to simply take in the fb playing Summit members in the MVFC, NDSU, SDSU, SDU, and Western Illinois to get them to 12 w/ 9 fb teams + YSU.

Now they could choose to add North Dakota and Nebraska-Omaha for a nice 14 team league to reduce travel in nonfb sports by breaking into Northern/Southern divisions and allowing fewer plane trips and more bus trips.

North - NDU, NDSU, SDSU, SDU, UNO, Drake, NIU
South - MSU, SIU, WIU, Bradley, IlSU, EU, InSU

Also adding NDU allows for the MVC to takeover the MVFC and drop YSU (if they want) and completely manage the league in house which would allow them the negotiate a media deal for all-sports making it more profitable. If YSU wants to stay and play fb w/ them, the MVC could encourage either Drake to add fb scholarships, or get Nebraska-Omaha to resume the sport, or get Valparaiso (non scholarship fb, other sports in Horizon like YSU) to add scholarships and join as another fb only to go along w/ YSU and give them a nice 12 team league.

North - NDU, NDSU, SDSU, SDU, NIU, Drake/UNO (if Valp move MSU could call it West)
South - MSU, SIU, WIU, IlSU, InSU, YSU (possibly Valp and call it East)

Anyways the only teams left in the Summit would be IUPUFW (in the middle of the footprint), IUPUI (good market), and Oakland (replacement for Detroit) which could easily fill into the Horizon League giving them 11 so they could and Chicago St from the WAC (who's been wanting in for years) to even things out.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:54 pm 
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tkalmus wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Like your idea on this one Muskie. But I had something similar about this, which is related with the Summit (the fb-playing schools to the MVC and the non-fb schools to the Horizon), and I post it on a different sub-forum or topic.

You mean the idea I wrote 2 posts above his...lol.

No disrespect ncaa2000 but your idea was to for the fb schools to team up and leave the bball schools as is. While I understand this has the same end result, the motives behind it are vastly different as it would be ridiculous for Northern Iowa or Missouri State to divorce themselves from bball powerhouses Wichita St or Creighton just because.

After thinking this out I think the following is more likely to happen than a split which is a longshot at best as the MVC is a great brand.

We're assuming that sh*t rolls downhill, so if the Catholic 7 decides to just grab 10 (as their TV money doesn't increase by adding 2) and takes Butler, Xavier, and Richmond (current fave over VCU) that leaves SLU and Dayton in the A10 way out in left field.

To keep those two Western members happy the A10 would most likely expand with more Western members and take Creighton (MVC) Witchita St (MVC) both great bball schools and Detroit (Horizon) for the market.

The MVC which was 5 fb schools and 5 nonfb schools (counting non-scholarship Drake as non fb) is now 5 fb to 3 non fb so they decide to simply take in the fb playing Summit members in the MVFC, NDSU, SDSU, SDU, and Western Illinois to get them to 12 w/ 9 fb teams + YSU.

Now they could choose to add North Dakota and Nebraska-Omaha for a nice 14 team league to reduce travel in nonfb sports by breaking into Northern/Southern divisions and allowing fewer plane trips and more bus trips.

North - NDU, NDSU, SDSU, SDU, UNO, Drake, NIU
South - MSU, SIU, WIU, Bradley, IlSU, EU, InSU

Also adding NDU allows for the MVC to takeover the MVFC and drop YSU (if they want) and completely manage the league in house which would allow them the negotiate a media deal for all-sports making it more profitable. If YSU wants to stay and play fb w/ them, the MVC could encourage either Drake to add fb scholarships, or get Nebraska-Omaha to resume the sport, or get Valparaiso (non scholarship fb, other sports in Horizon like YSU) to add scholarships and join as another fb only to go along w/ YSU and give them a nice 12 team league.

North - NDU, NDSU, SDSU, SDU, NIU, Drake/UNO (if Valp move MSU could call it West)
South - MSU, SIU, WIU, IlSU, InSU, YSU (possibly Valp and call it East)

Anyways the only teams left in the Summit would be IUPUFW (in the middle of the footprint), IUPUI (good market), and Oakland (replacement for Detroit) which could easily fill into the Horizon League giving them 11 so they could and Chicago St from the WAC (who's been wanting in for years) to even things out.


Actually, it was nearly based on this post:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2408&start=75#p67600

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:52 am 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Actually, it was nearly based on this post:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2408&start=75#p67600

Yes he was referencing your post from another board over 3 weeks old...and not mine from earlier today 2 posts up...lol (I honestly don't care but its humorous)

See ncaa2000, I enjoy some of your posts, but the theme seems to be that you want fb conferences to be completely separate from nonfb conferences, dislike associate memberships, seem to think that conferences can force schools to add football or increase scholarships, and think geography trumps everything (though even that seems limited as many times you've stated the Dakota schools should join the Big Sky despite being almost in Minnesota).

I remember thinking that way before I was really understanding the depth of these realignment decisions.

But the main difference between your post and mine is yours is an abstract theory.

Basically you said add all the MVFC as all sports to the MVC (including YSU I'm guessing) and make the non-scholarship Drake add scholarships, and Evansville not only reinstate the non-scholarship sport but also add scholarships, add Valparaiso as a full member and make them add scholarships too, and get Eastern Illinois to ditch the higher profile OVC for the MVC which would bring the league to 15 but I did see in another post that you think that Nebraska Omaha should be forced to add fb too so that would be 16 plus Bradley, Creighton, and Wichita St giving them 19 so I guess they could add another bb school to get to 20.

Its disconnected. You need to show a cause and effect when posting theories like this not just, this should happen. That way people can use it as a jumping off point and possibly change their opinions if you make good conclusions or purpose new ways of thinking.

Give an "if" or "because" now and again or else it belongs in the Dream Conference thread along with ones about SJSU/Fresno/SDSU/Hawaii in the PAC16.

My theory above was if the C7 only adds 10 and what the trickle down could look like for the MVC.

Here's another example...

If the C7 adds 12 w/ Creighton, SLU, Butler, Xavier, and Richmond the A10 will most likely give up its Western flank keeping Dayton/Duquesne as the most Western members and will focus on more coastal area schools North and South.

Then after only losing 1, the MVC only adds Western Illinois and calls it a day as they have no other poachers around them so why change up everything and expand your footprint in all nonfb sports to the Dakotas if you don't have to because financially it doesn't make much sense for schools in Indiana or Illinois to send their teams to North Dakota by choice.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:25 pm 
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I hope I didn't offend anyone or steal anyone's thunder when I commented about combining the Dakota schools with the MVC football schools to create a new conference. I just thought that with Creighton's departure form the MVC likely being the catalyst for realignment, that the football schools should consider bringing Wichita St with them into a 10 fb/12 all-sports hybrid league since Wichita St is the biggest basketball name in the whole lot and they don't make geographic sense with the Horizon nor do they have much in common culturally with Drake/Bradley/Evansville. Plus, if there were 9 members left in the MVC, Wichita St would be the necessary 6th vote to disband the league and spare everyone the exit fees.

Since inviting Wichita St to the party hadn't been mentioned yet I thought I'd toss in the idea. Also, the more I think about it geographically I think Nebraska-Omaha is the ideal 12th member.

As far as the fallout goes, the MVC's orphans would be Evansville, Bradley, and Drake.
The Summit's would be Denver, IUPUI, IPFW, and Oakland.
At 9 members, the Horizon could step in and take their 3 favorites. The rest would likely end up joining Chicago St and UMKC in the midwestern wing of the WAC.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:18 pm 
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Well, maybe that's what the Chicago State AD meant, when he said "you ain't seen nuthin' yet !" after UMKC left the Summit for the WAC...."


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:59 am 
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If The MVC hits the Horizon League hard--taking UIC, Loyola, and Valpo and then the Horizon goes after the eastern wing of the Summit--Oakland, IPFW, IUPUI, and WIU could the 5 remaining Summit members work out something with the Big Sky to keep the Big Sky alive. They could give them North Dakota and Northern Colorado and then the Summit could take back UMKC for an 8 member league:

Summit

UND
ND St
SD St
USD
UNO
UMKC
Denver
N Colorado

Big Sky
E Wash
Portland St
Idaho
Idaho St
Montana
Montana St
Weber St
S Utah
N Arizona
Sacramento St

I'm not sure what to do about football--they could all play in one big happy league or N Colorado and UND could join the MVFC as members #11 and #12.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:06 pm 
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fighting muskie wrote:
If The MVC hits the Horizon League hard--taking UIC, Loyola, and Valpo and then the Horizon goes after the eastern wing of the Summit--Oakland, IPFW, IUPUI, and WIU could the 5 remaining Summit members work out something with the Big Sky to keep the Big Sky alive. They could give them North Dakota and Northern Colorado and then the Summit could take back UMKC for an 8 member league:

Summit

UND
ND St
SD St
USD
UNO
UMKC
Denver
N Colorado

Big Sky
E Wash
Portland St
Idaho
Idaho St
Montana
Montana St
Weber St
S Utah
N Arizona
Sacramento St

I'm not sure what to do about football--they could all play in one big happy league or N Colorado and UND could join the MVFC as members #11 and #12.


Like that format so far, if it happens. And it won't affect UC-Davis and Cal Poly (both of the Big West) because both are football-only members in the Big Sky.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:35 pm 
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fighting muskie wrote:
Summit members work out something with the Big Sky to keep the Big Sky alive.


Keep the Big Sky alive? Why would the Big Sky be in trouble when the Summit is down to 5 and the Dakotas are running low on non football options? It'll be either join the WAC or join the Big Sky for those remaining. We may even see invites for the three Dakota schools.

East
Montana
Montana St
UND
ND St
SD St
USD
N Colorado
Denver*

West
E Wash
Portland St
Idaho*
Idaho St
Weber St
S Utah
N Arizona
Sacramento St

Idaho State would play in the Eastern division for football since their rival, Idaho, is a non football member anyway.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:54 pm 
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SJSUFan2010 wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
Summit members work out something with the Big Sky to keep the Big Sky alive.


Keep the Big Sky alive? Why would the Big Sky be in trouble when the Summit is down to 5 and the Dakotas are running low on non football options? It'll be either join the WAC or join the Big Sky for those remaining. We may even see invites for the three Dakota schools.

East
Montana
Montana St
UND
ND St
SD St
USD
N Colorado
Denver*

West
E Wash
Portland St
Idaho*
Idaho St
Weber St
S Utah
N Arizona
Sacramento St

Idaho State would play in the Eastern division for football since their rival, Idaho, is a non football member anyway.


Sorry I meant keep the Summit alive--I was typing fast trying to finish before my lunch break at work was over.

My thoughts are that the Big Sky might be willing to part with a couple schools in order to shrink their footprint and concentrate their money. I was thinking the 4 Dakota schools, N Colorado, the the rest of the MVFC schools play as a 12 member FBS league--

West--N Colorado, UND, USD, NDSU, SDSU, UNI
East--Youngstown St, Indiana St, Illinois St, SIU, WIU, Mizz St


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:11 pm 
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fighting muskie wrote:
SJSUFan2010 wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
Summit members work out something with the Big Sky to keep the Big Sky alive.


Keep the Big Sky alive? Why would the Big Sky be in trouble when the Summit is down to 5 and the Dakotas are running low on non football options? It'll be either join the WAC or join the Big Sky for those remaining. We may even see invites for the three Dakota schools.

East
Montana
Montana St
UND
ND St
SD St
USD
N Colorado
Denver*

West
E Wash
Portland St
Idaho*
Idaho St
Weber St
S Utah
N Arizona
Sacramento St

Idaho State would play in the Eastern division for football since their rival, Idaho, is a non football member anyway.


Sorry I meant keep the Summit alive--I was typing fast trying to finish before my lunch break at work was over.

My thoughts are that the Big Sky might be willing to part with a couple schools in order to shrink their footprint and concentrate their money. I was thinking the 4 Dakota schools, N Colorado, the the rest of the MVFC schools play as a 12 member FBS league--

West--N Colorado, UND, USD, NDSU, SDSU, UNI
East--Youngstown St, Indiana St, Illinois St, SIU, WIU, Mizz St


You mean as a FCS league. In order for a conference to play in the FBS level, all schools must be in FBS status, which means that their stadiums must have a minimum of at least 25,000 to 30,000 people. Conferences whose schools are in the FCS level have under the FBS minimum without problem.

Great format to see North Dakota, North Dakota State, Northern Iowa, Northern Colorado, South Dakota and South Dakota State representing the West Division; and Illinois State, Indiana State, Missouri State, Southern Illinois, Western Illinois and Youngstown State representing the East Division (technically and symbolically similar to the defunct women's all-sports Gateway Conference from 1982 to 1992, excluding Bradley, Drake and Wichita State) Oh, other great additions should be Butler and Dayton (for football-only, as both will be all-sports spekked into the New Big East), Southern Utah (possibly) or Eastern Illinois, and Nebraska-Omaha (with football being revived, which it was the worst decision for the Mavs to drop football, a sport that the school has had a legacy in D-II, just to upgrade to D-I; which the Mavs could have kept football, competing in the MVFC with 3 of the 4 Dakota schools, all former NCC conference mates, and still competing all sports in the Summit to begin this season).

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:21 pm 
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...or if the 3 Dakota Summit schools decided to align with the Big Sky for football the Big Sky could go to a quadrant format with its 16 teams:

Northwest--Portland St, E Washington, Montana, Montana St
Southwest--UC Davis, Cal Poly, Sacramento St, N Arizona
Central--Idaho St, Weber St, S Utah, N Colorado
Dakota--UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD

schedules for football could be made one of two ways:

A) play your 3 Division mates + all 4 members of another division + 1 school in each of the other 2 divisions = 9 conference games

B) play your 3 Division mates + 2 members in each of the other 3 divisions = 9 games

The Big Sky could maybe petition the NCAA to give the 16 member league 2 bids to the FCS playoffs since they have over twice the minimum number of members (7) to sponsor FCS fb.

The Big Sky could also "loan" the Summit UND and N Colorado to keep the Summit eligible for an auto bid to the bb tourney as well as Olympic sports postseasons. This would workout well for baseball since UND and N Colorado both play the sport and the Big Sky doesnt sponsor it.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:33 pm 
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fighting muskie wrote:
...or if the 3 Dakota Summit schools decided to align with the Big Sky for football the Big Sky could go to a quadrant format with its 16 teams:

Northwest--Portland St, E Washington, Montana, Montana St
Southwest--UC Davis, Cal Poly, Sacramento St, N Arizona
Central--Idaho St, Weber St, S Utah, N Colorado
Dakota--UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD

schedules for football could be made one of two ways:

A) play your 3 Division mates + all 4 members of another division + 1 school in each of the other 2 divisions = 9 conference games

B) play your 3 Division mates + 2 members in each of the other 3 divisions = 9 games

The Big Sky could maybe petition the NCAA to give the 16 member league 2 bids to the FCS playoffs since they have over twice the minimum number of members (7) to sponsor FCS fb.

The Big Sky could also "loan" the Summit UND and N Colorado to keep the Summit eligible for an auto bid to the bb tourney as well as Olympic sports postseasons. This would workout well for baseball since UND and N Colorado both play the sport and the Big Sky doesnt sponsor it.


As "football-only" members or all-sports members the other Dakota schools (USD, NDSU, SDSU)? Speaking of the quadrant formant, it does remind me of the WAC back from 1996-97 to 1998-99.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:40 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
...or if the 3 Dakota Summit schools decided to align with the Big Sky for football the Big Sky could go to a quadrant format with its 16 teams:

Northwest--Portland St, E Washington, Montana, Montana St
Southwest--UC Davis, Cal Poly, Sacramento St, N Arizona
Central--Idaho St, Weber St, S Utah, N Colorado
Dakota--UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD

schedules for football could be made one of two ways:

A) play your 3 Division mates + all 4 members of another division + 1 school in each of the other 2 divisions = 9 conference games

B) play your 3 Division mates + 2 members in each of the other 3 divisions = 9 games

The Big Sky could maybe petition the NCAA to give the 16 member league 2 bids to the FCS playoffs since they have over twice the minimum number of members (7) to sponsor FCS fb.

The Big Sky could also "loan" the Summit UND and N Colorado to keep the Summit eligible for an auto bid to the bb tourney as well as Olympic sports postseasons. This would workout well for baseball since UND and N Colorado both play the sport and the Big Sky doesnt sponsor it.


As "football-only" members or all-sports members the other Dakota schools (USD, NDSU, SDSU)? Speaking of the quadrant formant, it does remind me of the WAC back from 1996-97 to 1998-99.


football affiliates. If you scroll up to my original post my original premise was that the Big Sky could help out the Summit by A) offering them a place for football and B ) giving up a couple members in order to keep the Summit viable for Olympic sports with a set up like this:

Summit-- 8 members
UND
ND St
SD St
USD
UNO
UMKC
Denver
N Colorado

Big Sky--10 members (9 play FCS fb + 5 fb affiliates)
E Wash
Portland St
Idaho
Idaho St
Montana
Montana St
Weber St
S Utah
N Arizona
Sacramento St


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:46 pm 
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fighting muskie wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
...or if the 3 Dakota Summit schools decided to align with the Big Sky for football the Big Sky could go to a quadrant format with its 16 teams:

Northwest--Portland St, E Washington, Montana, Montana St
Southwest--UC Davis, Cal Poly, Sacramento St, N Arizona
Central--Idaho St, Weber St, S Utah, N Colorado
Dakota--UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD

schedules for football could be made one of two ways:

A) play your 3 Division mates + all 4 members of another division + 1 school in each of the other 2 divisions = 9 conference games

B) play your 3 Division mates + 2 members in each of the other 3 divisions = 9 games

The Big Sky could maybe petition the NCAA to give the 16 member league 2 bids to the FCS playoffs since they have over twice the minimum number of members (7) to sponsor FCS fb.

The Big Sky could also "loan" the Summit UND and N Colorado to keep the Summit eligible for an auto bid to the bb tourney as well as Olympic sports postseasons. This would workout well for baseball since UND and N Colorado both play the sport and the Big Sky doesnt sponsor it.


As "football-only" members or all-sports members the other Dakota schools (USD, NDSU, SDSU)? Speaking of the quadrant formant, it does remind me of the WAC back from 1996-97 to 1998-99.


football affiliates. If you scroll up to my original post my original premise was that the Big Sky could help out the Summit by A) offering them a place for football and B ) giving up a couple members in order to keep the Summit viable for Olympic sports with a set up like this:

Summit-- 8 members
UND
ND St
SD St
USD
UNO
UMKC
Denver
N Colorado

Big Sky--10 members (9 play FCS fb + 5 fb affiliates)
E Wash
Portland St
Idaho
Idaho St
Montana
Montana St
Weber St
S Utah
N Arizona
Sacramento St


Oh yeah, I remember now. Sorry for misunderstanding that earlier.

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