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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:57 am 
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ctx48c wrote:
GT in the east and Kansas in the west.Thats a way to 16.

It may happen pieces not all at once for the B10.

And The B12 needs 12 for national championship.FSU and Miami are the two Florida schools that Fox wants for the B12.Then B12 needs an extra school .Then its Clemson or Louisville.

Then the SEC goes for its two.


It's clear at this point, with the Maryland departure, that the ACC is the prime conference for others looking for members. And with the Big 12 being under 12 members and needing 12 to get a full revenue share in the new BCS Playoff, it's safe to say the ACC is something the Big 12 should look at.

That said, I think the Big 12 is dropping the ball by not being aggressive in a pursuit of the ACC members. They sit at 12 with Texas and Oklahoma as the powers, Kansas the class of the basketball product. You have WVU now in the east. So take over Florida with FSU and Miami and bring in GA Tech and Clemson as well.

Miami
FSU
GA Tech
Clemson
WVU
Kansas
Kansas St.
Iowa St.
Texas
Texas Tech
TCU
Baylor
Oklahoma
Oklahoma St.



Key is to get in while they can more easily. An invite now to FL schools and GA Tech would make a move to the Big Ten more difficult.

Meanwhile, the Big Ten might have it's eyes on the south with UVA, UNC, Duke type of schools along with GA Tech.
The SEC, if it were to expand, has NC and VA options as well with VA Tech likely at the top of the list.

Point is, the Big 12 has to have some financial projections and be able to see that adding FSU, Miami, GA Tech and Clemson has to be beneficial to the bottom line.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:07 am 
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AAU schools such as Ga Tech are not heading to the B12.Past history shows 4 AAU schools have left the B12.
Nebraska was an AAU school when it left the B12(even though it is no longer an AAU school) for the B10.
Colorado(for the PAC 12),Texas A&M and Missouri all have left the B12 for the SEC.

It is certainly possible that Kansas another AAU school could leave the B12 for the B10.

Given the replacements that the B12 brought into replace these school ,TCU and WVU,the nature of B12 replacements schools would likely be FSU,Miami or Clemson from the ACC or even USF or UCF from the A12.

All these schools are not AAU classified.
While there are some others such BYU or Boise St I find them not be likely.
I still believe the Fox statement that they want Florida schools for the B12.
Also the B12 does not want to lose national championship dollars.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:50 am 
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ctx48c wrote:
AAU schools such as Ga Tech are not heading to the B12.Past history shows 4 AAU schools have left the B12.
Nebraska was an AAU school when it left the B12(even though it is no longer an AAU school) for the B10.
Colorado(for the PAC 12),Texas A&M and Missouri all have left the B12 for the SEC.


Tulane and Rice would gladly join the Big XII. They're AAU.

It used to be that the difference between the Big 8 and the Big Ten was the mileage. Then, it was a "midwest thing" versus a "heartland thing." Now, it's just a difference in visibility. Better sports in the heartland, but who's watching?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:27 am 
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Private AAU schools without good sports programs are not headed to the B10.
Either are Harvard or MIT.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:14 am 
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ctx48c wrote:
AAU schools such as Ga Tech are not heading to the B12.Past history shows 4 AAU schools have left the B12.
Nebraska was an AAU school when it left the B12(even though it is no longer an AAU school) for the B10.
Colorado(for the PAC 12),Texas A&M and Missouri all have left the B12 for the SEC.

It is certainly possible that Kansas another AAU school could leave the B12 for the B10.

Given the replacements that the B12 brought into replace these school ,TCU and WVU,the nature of B12 replacements schools would likely be FSU,Miami or Clemson from the ACC or even USF or UCF from the A12.

All these schools are not AAU classified.
While there are some others such BYU or Boise St I find them not be likely.
I still believe the Fox statement that they want Florida schools for the B12.
Also the B12 does not want to lose national championship dollars.

Let's back this up a couple of years...

AAU schools such as Mizzou or A&M are not heading to the SEC.Past history shows 2 AAU schools have left the SEC.

Tulane and GA Tech.

AAU status while great, isn't everything. Beleive it or not, sports and markets also matter in conference realignment.

IF the Big 10 just wants 16 and the SEC also just wants 16, and say they take UNC/UVA/VPI/NCSU the ACC will have to add at least UConn & Cincy, and possibly even USF & Temple to recover (all non AAU BTW). When looking at that new conference you see a major problem arising...

South- Miami, USF, FSU, GT, Clem, Duke, Wake
North- Lville, Cincy, Pitt, Temple, Cuse, BC, UConn

So the conference GT and FSU joined back in the day is pretty much gone and all that's left are Clemson, conference punching bag Wake Forest and the former Big East schools.

At a certain point the 3 AAU schools along with FSU/Clem and possibly Miami (elite academics/great market) could easily decide to associate with the better fb conference (every school in the Big 12 minus Iowa St has had a top ten year fairly recently) and 3 AAU members including Texas, Kansas, and Iowa St which if Pitt, Duke, and GA Tech all joined would give them more AAU members than the SEC.

If AAU was everything, there would be no way that Vandy/Florida could have pulled AAU members from the ACC and B12 (both of which had 7 tied with the PAC10 and the Ivy League for second most behind the Big Ten).

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:58 am 
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GT did not join the AAU until 2010. They left the SEC in 1964. Google the 'Bobby Dodd' story deep enough; it had some personal & political elements to it as to why Tech left.
Tulane joined the AAU in 1958. They left the SEC in 1966. Tulane leaving also had nothing to do with AAU; it was about fianances & keeping up competitively in athletics.
Sewanee (U. of the South) left back in 1940. Now, Div. III - Southern Athletics Association.
The SEC has never added a school directly from the ACC. So. Carolina, charter ACC member, was Metro/fb independent when added to the SEC in 1990.
The SEC was formed from the old Southern Conference of western schools in 1932. Ten of the 13 remain. The ACC also has old southern conference roots.


Last edited by sec03 on Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:59 am 
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Some people have their own definition elite academic quality.

The AAU has a thorough one which is accepted by most knowledgeable individuals.
It includes both private and public universities.

What decade did Tulane leave the SEC?

What decade did Ga Tech leave the SEC?

I guess some do not think the world changes

Obviously Tulane a member to be of the A12 to be is not getting invited back to SEC.

Also GA Tech is a prime target of the B10 not the B12 or SEC.

The sec is interested in great teams UT or in states they are not in Virginia(VATECH) or North Carolina(NcSt)
.

Movement from the ACC to the B10,SEC or B12 is somewhat dependent on the UMD court case with the ACC.

If fox pushes the B12 enough to go into Florida(Miami and FSU) and the limiting of national championship dollars due to a lack of playoff in football the B12 could move faster.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:20 pm 
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sec03 wrote:
GT did not join the AAU until 2010. They left the SEC in 1964. Google the 'Bobby Dodd' story deep enough; it had some personal & political elements to it as to why Tech left.
Tulane joined the AAU in 1958. They left the SEC in 1966. Tulane leaving also had nothing to do with AAU; it was about fianances & keeping up competitively in athletics.
Sewanee (U. of the South) left back in 1940. Now, Div. III - Southern Athletics Association.
The SEC has never added a school directly from the ACC. So. Carolina, charter ACC member, was Metro/fb independent when added to the SEC in 1990.
The SEC was formed from the old Southern Conference of western schools in 1932. Ten of the 13 remain. The ACC also has old southern conference roots.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, I was just making a point that the above statement by ctx48c "AAU schools such as Ga Tech are not heading to the B12.Past history shows 4 AAU schools have left the B12." is skewed at best.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:27 pm 
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sec03 wrote:
GT did not join the AAU until 2010. They left the SEC in 1964. Google the 'Bobby Dodd' story deep enough; it had some personal & political elements to it as to why Tech left.
Tulane joined the AAU in 1958. They left the SEC in 1966. Tulane leaving also had nothing to do with AAU; it was about fianances & keeping up competitively in athletics.
Sewanee (U. of the South) left back in 1940. Now, Div. III - Southern Athletics Association.
The SEC has never added a school directly from the ACC. So. Carolina, charter ACC member, was Metro/fb independent when added to the SEC in 1990.
The SEC was formed from the old Southern Conference of western schools in 1932. Ten of the 13 remain. The ACC also has old southern conference roots.


Right on. GT's Bobby Dodd had this feud with Bear Bryant of Alabama: The Chick Graning face fracture in an Alabama/Tech game, Tech's claims of over-recruitment by certain SEC schools, disputes about the 104 rule of the time.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:37 pm 
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tkalmus wrote:
sec03 wrote:
GT did not join the AAU until 2010. They left the SEC in 1964. Google the 'Bobby Dodd' story deep enough; it had some personal & political elements to it as to why Tech left.
Tulane joined the AAU in 1958. They left the SEC in 1966. Tulane leaving also had nothing to do with AAU; it was about fianances & keeping up competitively in athletics.
Sewanee (U. of the South) left back in 1940. Now, Div. III - Southern Athletics Association.
The SEC has never added a school directly from the ACC. So. Carolina, charter ACC member, was Metro/fb independent when added to the SEC in 1990.
The SEC was formed from the old Southern Conference of western schools in 1932. Ten of the 13 remain. The ACC also has old southern conference roots.

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, I was just making a point that the above statement by ctx48c "AAU schools such as Ga Tech are not heading to the B12.Past history shows 4 AAU schools have left the B12." is skewed at best.


You said: "Past history shows 2 AAU schools have left the SEC. Tulane and Georgia Tech."

Also: "...no way....Vandy/Florida could have pulled the AAU members from the ACC and B12.."

"What does this have to do with anything?" You introduced these statements.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 6:07 pm 
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Let's see, the B1G wants 3 or 4 southern schools to extend their AAU domain. They don't want AAU schools in their backyard---Pitt and Iowa State; rather break further into the ACC with UNC, UVA, & GT.
Suggestions are that UVA and GT shall be amiable to it if Maryland does not have to pay a real hefty exit fee, though UVA and GT are part of demanding the hefty exit fee. FSU, Miami, and Clemson (maybe Louisville) are already picked for the B12, though the B12 did not take L'ville when they had the opportunity; & FSU and Clemson both stated last year and afterwards, they were not pursing the B12 whatsoever. The SEC will settle for NCSU & VPI, where their state flagships become Delany darlings.

The above scenario, or something like it, is being advocated by certain B1G & B12 advocates and ACC detractors and revengers of the old BE.

If the ACC is so full of outstanding picks, then why would the conference be breaking-up anyway? The ACC lost Maryland, that's one, and it didn't come with anyone else except Rutugers. The B12 lost 4, and now they are the secure one because Texas remained and they have a GoR?

The SEC is to take NCSU & VPI to help the B1G and B12 to strip the ACC of it's southern schools? The UF President referred to "aces", and he's been a leader on this, and big on pushing academics. Slive and the SEC are not stupid or powerless on bigtime moves. It's clear the SEC is not seeking to expand right now, but shall pounce as needed. They certainly have a plan, just in case, and would have had discussions or even offers to select schools in case defections became a must. The rumor (from Mr. SEC and others) that the SEC has been conversing with UNC and Duke for a few years may have merit to it. Seanbo talked about this. UNC & Duke would give the SEC "North Carolina" essentially, maybe a better arrangement than a piece of the action from two states.

The SEC is not going to do Delany favors on this. The SEC has no control on what GT does, nor would really care. But when it comes to breaking-up North Carolina & Virginia schools, let's see what Delany really has. He can flash AAU & the BTN all he wants, UNC ain't buying, & UVA may not either.

That said, these conferences shall go to 16 at some point. The ACC may be the vulnerable one, initially on the perimeters. If they confuse being stubborn for being smart, it shall happen.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:12 pm 
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sec03 wrote:
Let's see, the B1G wants 3 or 4 southern schools to extend their AAU domain. They don't want AAU schools in their backyard---Pitt and Iowa State; rather break further into the ACC with UNC, UVA, & GT.
Suggestions are that UVA and GT shall be amiable to it if Maryland does not have to pay a real hefty exit fee, though UVA and GT are part of demanding the hefty exit fee. FSU, Miami, and Clemson (maybe Louisville) are already picked for the B12, though the B12 did not take L'ville when they had the opportunity; & FSU and Clemson both stated last year and afterwards, they were not pursing the B12 whatsoever. The SEC will settle for NCSU & VPI, where their state flagships become Delany darlings.

The above scenario, or something like it, is being advocated by certain B1G & B12 advocates and ACC detractors and revengers of the old BE.

If the ACC is so full of outstanding picks, then why would the conference be breaking-up anyway? The ACC lost Maryland, that's one, and it didn't come with anyone else except Rutugers. The B12 lost 4, and now they are the secure one because Texas remained and they have a GoR?

The SEC is to take NCSU & VPI to help the B1G and B12 to strip the ACC of it's southern schools? The UF President referred to "aces", and he's been a leader on this this. Slive and the SEC are not stupid or powerless. It's clear the SEC is not seeking to expand right now, but shall pounce as needed. They certainly have a plan, just in case, and would have had discussions or even offers to select schools in case defections became a must. The rumor (from Mr. SEC and others) that the SEC has been conversing with UNC and Duke for a few years may have merit to it. Seanbo talked about this. UNC & Duke would give the SEC "North Carolina" essentially, maybe a better arrangement tham a piece of the action from two states.

The SEC is not going to do Delany favors on this. The SEC has no control on what GT does, nor would really care. But when it comes to breaking-up North Carolina & Virginia schools, let's see what Delany really has. He can flash AAU & the BTN all he wants, UNC ain't buying, & UVA may not either.

That said, these conferences shall go to 16 at some point. The ACC may be the vulnerable one, initially on the perimeters. If they confuse being stubborn for being smart, it shall happen.

First off B12 advocates don't give two flying ducks who the SEC/B1G take. They'll take just about whatever is leftover from the ACC...basically any current ACC teams not named Wake Forest or North of Pitt so your B12 generalizations are just plain wrong. The only conference that should care about the B12's plan's are the ACC and only Wake, BC and Cuse along with UConn, Cincy, USF, Temple should possibly be worried. And the Big 12 passed on Lville because they didn't think their was a solid option for #12, they'd rather keep their options open for any possible ACC defectors.

Anyways...

B1G advocates think their conference is best and SEC thinks its conference is best. SEC clearly wins on the field and in ratings but the Big Ten clearly wins in academics and money. If realignment was run by the fans I'm sure UNC would end up in the SEC, but its run by presidents and BORs who care most about academics and money. That's why most see UNC eventually moving to the B1G though if the SEC grabs both UNC and Duke that could make things interesting as they'd like to keep that rivalry going but they also care about UVA too.

Virginia isn't the be all end all that some others seem to think. Don't get me wrong they are a great school but why would the SEC want them when they could take VPI whose been better in most sports the SEC cares about especially in fb and their academics would still be in the top half of the conference. Also the Virginia demographics aren't nearly as 'Northern' as Maryland but they are close and would fit in the B1G better than the SEC IMO.

I've said on this very thread that I think the Big Ten will get Virginia and the SEC wil get Virginia Tech, but both will fight tooth and nail to land UNC. If the SEC gets them the B1G may just grab Duke as their NC school or jump to GT and if the B1G grabs them the SEC would probably grab NCSU.

The others (FSU, Clem, Mia, GT/Duke) could go to the Big 12 or may get picked up in the process of both conferences going to 18 or 20 in an attempt to destroy the ACC (possibly in an attempt to force UNC/ND to move) and to keep the Big 12 out.

As far as "If the ACC is so full of outstanding picks, then why would the conference be breaking-up anyway?" isn't it obvious. Money and respect. The football schools (FSU, Clem, Mia, GT, VPI) get no respect because the rest of the conference sucks and they always seem to get beat in high profile games. They couldn't even secure a BCS bowl game without making a deal with ND, the SEC, and the Big Ten. Clearly they are in last place regardless of the realignment status/rankings of their schools. Also they receive the least amount of money, and ESPN owns all their rights so the prospect of getting a network is slim, plus theirs a lot of tension between the fb schools, the CORE schools (NC/UVA) and the Northern schools as they all have vastly different idea on what/how to do things. MD was the crack in the armor. They forced a fee raise of 50 million only because they couldn't get them to sign a GOR. The ACC is just in a bad location like the Big 12 but they have more desirable schools so unlike the Big 12 who only really had to convince Texas to stay put (I would have said OU but they were shot down by the PAC12 so really just Texas) the ACC has to convince over half of their schools that the grass is NOT greener on the other side.

Which is hard to do when the Big Ten could possibly double their current conference payout and offers more access to grants to share with higher academic peers, while the SEC could still substantially increase their payout too but offers more pride in 7 straight fb national titles and just as many bball titles as the ACC over the last 20 years.

If the Maryland fee gets over turned or extremely reduced I expect the Big Ten to make a quick run around UNC and add UVA and either GT or FSU and then try to force UNC's hand while also re-courting ND. The SEC would have to jump in quick and offer both UNC and Duke and then wait for UNC to make a decision as they could conceivably keep the shell of the conference together like Texas did but then SEC would make sure to grab its 15/16 who at worst would be VPI/Clemson before any grant of right were signed.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:26 am 
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tkalmus wrote:


First off B12 advocates don't give two flying ducks who the SEC/B1G take. They'll take just about whatever is leftover from the ACC...basically any current ACC teams not named Wake Forest or North of Pitt so your B12 generalizations are just plain wrong. The only conference that should care about the B12's plan's are the ACC and only Wake, BC and Cuse along with UConn, Cincy, USF, Temple should possibly be worried. And the Big 12 passed on Lville because they didn't think their was a solid option for #12, they'd rather keep their options open for any possible ACC defectors.

That's absurd. Of course the B12 certainly would care what other major conferences are doing with expansion/re-alignment. And you contradict yourself about generalizations, specifying ACC leftovers which the B12 shall pick upon, which falls into the pattern of the critique I specified as to certain popular beliefs as to who is going where.
There's going to be a lot of disappointment when the ACC does not become the feeder in the way some think.

Thanks to DeLoss Dodd, he's the catalyst for the gift that keeps on giving. May he never retire.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:39 am 
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sec03 wrote:
tkalmus wrote:


First off B12 advocates don't give two flying ducks who the SEC/B1G take. They'll take just about whatever is leftover from the ACC...basically any current ACC teams not named Wake Forest or North of Pitt so your B12 generalizations are just plain wrong. The only conference that should care about the B12's plan's are the ACC and only Wake, BC and Cuse along with UConn, Cincy, USF, Temple should possibly be worried. And the Big 12 passed on Lville because they didn't think their was a solid option for #12, they'd rather keep their options open for any possible ACC defectors.

That's absurd. Of course the B12 certainly would care what other major conferences are doing with expansion/re-alignment. And you contradict yourself about generalizations, specifying ACC leftovers which the B12 shall pick upon, which falls into the pattern of the critique I specified as to certain popular beliefs as to who is going where.
There's going to be a lot of disappointment when the ACC does not become the feeder in the way some think.

Thanks to DeLoss Dodd, he's the catalyst for the gift that keeps on giving. May he never retire.

The facts are that the ACC is at the bottom the Big 12 is a step up. IF they get raided by both B1G/SEC the Big 12 will take the leftovers. IF not we will all hold out until 2025 when the Big 12's GOR is over and see what happens.

Edit:reminder,lets keep discussion friendly.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:47 am 
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One must willingly suspend their disbelief whenever taking the B12 > ACC argument because of the big, gaping logical divides of schools like Pitt and Air Force turning down advances for these believed "lesser conferences," or that West Virginia applied to the ACC, then SEC, THEN Big XII before leaving the Big East. Or Clemson officials going so far as to liken such a move as a disaster. Or Notre Dame choosing the ACC despite a partial football "attachment." Or FSU, where nothing has been stopping them taking a walk.

I think it's culture that drives the SEC, institutional reputation in the B1G, institutional likeness in the ACC, and greed and fear in the Big XII. And I don't see the SEC proactively going after the ACC, or ACC institutions willingly giving themselves over to the SEC. Many of their members share a past with each other, but the divide was sharp and pronounced. Culture versus academic likeness...

...and that's why I think it's the Big XII and not the ACC who should be scared of the SEC. Because there isn't much difference in the culture of the Oklahoma schools and some in the SEC, or even perhaps Kansas and KSU. And institutionally, they are all VERY much like each other. And rabid about their sports. With the exception of a purplish Missouri and Florida, it's a Red State express.


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