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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 1:30 pm 
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The way some of those negotiation points go, especially the stuff that kind of gives JHU an out at any time, leads me to believe it's more likely the ACC or B1G, who might jam them up with exit fees and other junk.

Still, I don't think it rules out any of the conferences who were rumored to approach them: ECAC, Big East, CAA, or the Patriot...

Or, maybe the Ivy?


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PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 8:26 pm 
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Not the Ivy. They don't need another team.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:30 pm 
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I just read an interesting take on scheduling from Andy Bitter; he is the Virginia Tech beat writer for the Roanoke Times and Virginian Pilot (Norfolk/Virginia Beach). He suggests eliminating the football divisions to allow the conference members to more quickly rotate through all of its members; specifically, get home and away match ups with all members every four year cycle given 14 members and eight league games. He brings up pros and cons, but this could work for the Big Ten and SEC, too. Please give it a read:

http://blogs.roanoke.com/andybittervirg ... g-problem/


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:10 am 
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At the SEC Media Days in Hoover, Ala., Steve Spurrier expressed that Notre Dame needs to join the ACC in all-sports, as a full participant. I doubt he conveyed this at the event without general support from his colleagues.

I seriously doubt it is a jab at the BIG in any way. All these high conferences personnel know ND and the BIG shall not be a unified entity. It's about the system that enables ND in special ways.

What's unique about this is not a revelation that Notre Dame gets preferred treatment; any observing follower knows that. It's a commentary that ND needs to commit fb fully to the ACC, where they have now parked their other sports.

Not so endorsing reflections on Notre Dame's special deals are getting new attention beyond Gordon Gee's recent slips of the tongue.

Conferences are figuring out that by having one school out there be given so much special treatment and criteria by major conferences themselves, including the rules they make, and by the media/network(s)/bowl committees & sponsors, that they are enabling Notre Dame at their own economic expense and exposure depth.

The PAC12's leadership needs to have a little chat with a couple of their members about this. The BIG can fully let go of chasing ND, and continue to make progress in figuring it out completely and further acting on it with their own self-interests. Texas & Oklahoma, do what's good for your own conference on this. Let the ACC, now the biggest and newest top enabler, give ND all its prime fb games as a strategic resolution; it's Swofford's hopeful plan.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 12:37 pm 
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sec03 wrote:
At the SEC Media Days in Hoover, Ala., Steve Spurrier expressed that Notre Dame needs to join the ACC in all-sports, as a full participant. I doubt he conveyed this at the event without general support from his colleagues.

I seriously doubt it is a jab at the BIG in any way. All these high conferences personnel know ND and the BIG shall not be a unified entity. It's about the system that enables ND in special ways.

What's unique about this is not a revelation that Notre Dame gets preferred treatment; any observing follower knows that. It's a commentary that ND needs to commit fb fully to the ACC, where they have now parked their other sports.

Not so endorsing reflections on Notre Dame's special deals are getting new attention beyond Gordon Gee's recent slips of the tongue.

Conferences are figuring out that by having one school out there be given so much special treatment and criteria by major conferences themselves, including the rules they make, and by the media/network(s)/bowl committees & sponsors, that they are enabling Notre Dame at their own economic expense and exposure depth.

The PAC12's leadership needs to have a little chat with a couple of their members about this. The BIG can fully let go of chasing ND, and continue to make progress in figuring it out completely and further acting on it with their own self-interests. Texas & Oklahoma, do what's good for your own conference on this. Let the ACC, now the biggest and newest top enabler, give ND all its prime fb games as a strategic resolution; it's Swofford's hopeful plan.


I think team-specific bowl tie-in's are the next "hot topic" of the sport, and I think it's something that conference-committed programs and coaches should be concerned about in football. It's sort of an extension of the older days when bowls catered to certain programs by way of less exclusivity in selectivity and tradition than contractual obligation, and the volume of independent programs in the east. Programs like Notre Dame have enjoyed them for years, and now the SA's and BYU do, too, as independents or as alternatives. And, if Navy is any indication...they can go somewhere and keep what's theirs without necessarily sharing. I suspect BYU will demand the same should they ever "reintegrate." I fully expect Notre Dame will...and that's where this may be coming from. Big difference between minor bowls and the bigger ones...


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:13 pm 
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If BYU joined the MWC or Army the AAC then yes they'd make it on condition that they keep their bowl contracts/TV deals that had already been negotiated just like Navy. If BYU joined the Big 12 it likely wouldn't be an issue since the Big 12 has far better bowls/TV money.

But as far a ND goes, with the exception of the Orange Bowl (which I'm not sure on all the specifics of that deal) I dont think ND has any other special bowl deals, they are just included in the ACC's bowl line up like they were in the Big East. Granted that is a big one but it doesn't really affect anyone outside of the Big Ten and SEC who really want that 2nd autobid, and the ACC schools that get passed over for the Irish.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:39 am 
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tkalmus wrote:
If BYU joined the MWC or Army the AAC then yes they'd make it on condition that they keep their bowl contracts/TV deals that had already been negotiated just like Navy. If BYU joined the Big 12 it likely wouldn't be an issue since the Big 12 has far better bowls/TV money.

But as far a ND goes, with the exception of the Orange Bowl (which I'm not sure on all the specifics of that deal) I dont think ND has any other special bowl deals, they are just included in the ACC's bowl line up like they were in the Big East. Granted that is a big one but it doesn't really affect anyone outside of the Big Ten and SEC who really want that 2nd autobid, and the ACC schools that get passed over for the Irish.


I wouldn't put it past BYU to use one or two of its bowls as "collateral" for special treatment in the Big XII. In fact, I'm sure the bowls would put the Cougars up to it because of getting into that Big XII rotation. Not that the Big XII is hurting for post-season games, but it's something both schools and bowls have in terms of stroke.

As for Notre Dame, I've said it before: I think UMD left the ACC because of the Irish's special arrangement. UMD lost its scheduling autonomy with the Irish, and the Irish got "leap-frog rights" over the Terrapins in the Orange Bowl and equal rights as a non-member in the other ones. The ACC was game to that, just not UMD. I'm not fully convinced some of the old Big East schools are fine with the Irish, either...but Swofford isn't about doing right by individual schools, just the conference.

The bowls just have more say in this than we think they do.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:25 am 
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I kept hearing that the driver behind the Maryland to B1G was money. Evidently, the school's finances were / are under some pressure.

Not sure if Maryland had any particular issues with ACC, but the college president was sold on the Big Ten sending an extra $10 million / year (or so) their way, due to BTN revenue,
more lucrative bowl deals, better TV contracts, etc.

Not sure how the alumni, athletic department, and Board of Trustees feel about the move, since much of the dealing was secretive, per Delany's "Cone of Silence" jag.

The ACC vs. Maryland suit regarding exit fees should be interesting. The B1G has offered to help out with some of the money that ends up being owed...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:38 am 
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It's one thing for SEC Spurrier (once fb coach at Duke) to state that Notre Dame needs to be in the ACC for a full commitment; it may be more direct and powerful now that Mike Kryzewski, Duke's bb coach, has recently stated similar.

It's amusing to see ND's replies (including their bb coach Brey) of 'how things change'. Talk about projection.

If Duke thinks this as Notre Dame signs on, just wait till a school such as FSU or Clemson gets dissed in favor of ND for an Orange Bowl bid or gets leapfrogged with ND getting a future playoff spot. It may just take ND upsetting UNC in an ACC tournament bb championship game to strongly elevate the call for an all-sports commitment from ND.

As Coach K pointed out, ND not willing to provide an all-sports commitment is why the BIG never accepted them.

Agree Cutter, in addition to Maryland's financial woes with athletics, charter member Maryland did not like the ACC's new deal with ND. If Florida State, or any other ACC member, said to the conference, "we want to go fb independent, but we'll play 5 games with you in fb on rotation to help our scheduling, and of course we'll still grace you with all our other sports in the ACC"; wonder how that request would go down?

When you treat an outsider or partial newcomer better than your own, that's not good.

The BIG, SEC, and PAC12 would never consider such an arrangement with ND. The B12, needing well-regarded new members, talked about it with ND, but I expect those savvy folks in Texas would have pursued injecting some sort of timeline for an eventual full commitment.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:26 am 
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tute79 wrote:
I kept hearing that the driver behind the Maryland to B1G was money. Evidently, the school's finances were / are under some pressure.

Not sure if Maryland had any particular issues with ACC, but the college president was sold on the Big Ten sending an extra $10 million / year (or so) their way, due to BTN revenue,
more lucrative bowl deals, better TV contracts, etc.


It is about money. For Maryland, I think the ACC put itself too much in front of UMD's ability to generate income off football and basketball that pushed it into the B1G. Its ACC football future was to half-filled stadiums and body-baggers, losing autonomy while also losing direct access to the best games by way of preferential treatment. The basketball forcast saw a lot more NIT and CBI's than NCAA tournaments.

The B1G isn't going to fill the void of the Virginia rivalry, or Duke basketball, but the B1G won't stand in the way of UMD's profitability. The B1G understands (and is betting on) their potential in that respect.

sec03 wrote:
If Florida State, or any other ACC member, said to the conference, "we want to go fb independent, but we'll play 5 games with you in fb on rotation to help our scheduling, and of course we'll still grace you with all our other sports in the ACC"; wonder how that request would go down?

When you treat an outsider or partial newcomer better than your own, that's not good.


Yup.

To some extent, I think Texas and Oklahoma are on this path. We just don't know yet what they've tossed around when they were talking to conferences. I'm quite certain they'd bring the Cotton Bowl with them, special tie-in and all.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:48 pm 
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[quote="The Bishin Cutter] I'm not fully convinced some of the old Big East schools are fine with the Irish, either...but Swofford isn't about doing right by individual schools, just the conference.[/quote]

Probably. They just didn't want to be public about it and hurt individual options. Some ACC schools with no prior conference-affliated history with Notre Dame, expressed how wonderful it would be playing the Irish. We'll see if the same tune is sung when the pattern of candy bags being shelled out develops a pattern.
While Swofford extracted what he wanted from the Big East, he either didn't study the hybrid history, or thought he can succeed in a similar endeavor whereby the Big East failed to do so.

From Gee to Notre Dame brass responding, it's not about being Catholic so much. BC is Catholic. Notre Dame rides the mystique all the way to the bank. And there's already a line of suitors who thought they had a clever bargain with them only to caught flaccid with their pants fallen.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:07 am 
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louisvillecard01 wrote:
From Gee to Notre Dame brass responding, it's not about being Catholic so much. BC is Catholic. Notre Dame rides the mystique all the way to the bank. And there's already a line of suitors who thought they had a clever bargain with them only to caught flaccid with their pants fallen.


Yeah, Notre Dame hams up their "independent legacy" like it's something to be proud of. Their football squad was the victim of midwestern anti-catholic bigotry that was rampant across much of the country until the end of Prohibition. But it wasn't like Michigan never played them again, or that the Big Ten stonewalled them entirely during the Yost-era (ahem, Purdue) or the Big Ten never approaching them for membership again (both Notre Dame and Marquette were considered for membership after Chicago left the conference, to which Michigan State replaced).

These days, it's just Notre Dame administration, alumni, boosters, and fans acting like a bunch of chumps. A lot of poetic license taken on something that Notre Dame has exploited to justify virtually everything it does, good or bad. And it's totally hypocritical. Football should be independent but not the other sports? So, I guess the midwest just had a problem with Catholic football and not the institution itself? News to me.

I'm glad Gee said what he said about them. They haven't struck me as a very genuine athletic department, and while their negotiating skills are quite effective, it seems they never want to identify themselves as equals in anything. Can't wait to see the ACC handle this situation post-Swofford...it's going to take an even bigger sheister to soft-shoe the iniquity that was created.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:15 pm 
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Criticize Notre Dame not being in a fb conference, defenders come out fast and in force. They certainly don't like coaches from South Carolina (fb) and Duke (bb) expressing their thoughts on this.

The Bleacher's blog weighing in; attack So. Carolina to justify ND fb Independence? No bias there?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1711 ... dependence"

And of course, Swofford's operatives needed to take a break from negatively dwelling on last year's Jadeveon Clowney's hit (So. Car. vs Mich--not an ACC game). Not sure how relevant that is, other than a new ACC officiating figure, and South Carolina opens the season vs North Carolina.

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-footba ... louisville"

And, of course, Brain Kelly's reply:

http://www.wndu.com/sports/ndfootball/h ... 80641.html"

Spurrier noted he had the backing of SEC coaches for what was said. Criticism from speaking out is expected. What's different is that before, criticism of special deals involving Notre Dame were seldom for public consumption by high profile figures in the college sports industry. More light gets in with exposure. And if there is a need to quickly deny and defend, some nerve was hit.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:16 pm 
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On the Big 12 board I threw out the idea that Oklahoma is likely the jenga piece that if pulled out of the conference causes it collapse and send pieces falling everywhere. The ACC's magic jenga piece is Florida St. If the SEC and Big Ten decided to collaborate in an effort to take apart the ACC all that would need to happen is for Mike Slive to call the president of Florida St.

This would certainly have to be a group effort between the two leagues. They would have to predetermine who got contested targets like UNC and GA Tech. Part of the negotiation might include using Missouri as a bargaining chip to make the Big Ten and SEC's final numbers work out. The main sticking point for the Big Ten would be that when in all the chips were done falling and the dust settled they got Notre Dame.

Schools I think the Big Ten would primarily want are ND, UVA, UNC, and GA Tech
Schools I think the SEC would be after are FSU, VA Tech, Clemson, GA Tech, and a NC school

The Big Ten might have a slight interest in Duke, Pitt, Syracuse, and BC but I imagine all of these schools end up left out
The SEC could be persuaded to take Miami or perhaps NC State if the Big Ten insists that they want the Tarheels
No one has any interest in WF, and Louisville is probably left for the Big 12 to pick up.

Let's say our target # is 18--The SEC acts first and issues invitations to FSU, Clemson, and VA Tech. The day after it becomes public the Big Ten invites UVA, UNC, and GA Tech and the SEC invites NC State. Virginia state politics become a non-factor as both schools are extended a lifeline and within NC fears are calmed as both big state schools are getting homes and staying in the ACC is no longer viable without FSU, Clemson, VT, UVA, and GT. The Big Ten then focuses its attention on Notre Dame--if they can land them as a full member than great, everything is settled. If not you have to think the remaining ACC members are panicking--we're looking BC, 'Cuse, Pitt, L'ville, WF, Duke, Miami, and ND being all that's left and most of them would be pleading with the Big 12 and Notre Dame's left abandoned. If they circle the wagons then they are adding AAC schools to the league and ND can't like that.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:09 pm 
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Recall Gee's ugly remarks about the SEC, along with his negative comments about Notre Dame, Louisville, etc.? This was not just about BIG fanfare and needling competition. There was frustration. The thought goes, the BIG wanted SEC cooperation apparently to extract further into the ACC and did not get it the way they wanted. From a particular view maybe the message was the SEC was being all stupid about it and did not acknowledge the benefits that could be derived from it. By default, BIG elements may have been conveying which ACC schools the SEC could pick. Talk about a prince dictating to a king?

Several points. The SEC was not in serious expansion mode at the moment. Their agenda differed from the BIGs'. The SEC was trying to adjust to expansion with Texas A&M & Mizzou and work out divisional and scheduling issues. A Presidential leader of the SEC stated the SEC would not expand unless it were top, slam-dunk choices so to speak.
The ACC was not as weak as many potrayed in this regard. They re-grouped and did get the GoR.

Rumor had it, particular in the flow of college fb chat in the Carolinas and with some media commentaries of speculation, the SEC had a 'just in case' scenario in place, and it went to the heartbeat of the ACC. #15 & #16 would have been UNC & Duke; take two to get the one. Make no bones about it, North Carolina would have been the target, and not secondary schools there.
Contrary to delivered opinions, UVA was not keen on following Maryland to the B1G. And the SEC was suppose to help with this by taking VPI? Why do favors if it's not your priority?

The ACC surviving is not an SEC worry. Where there's common turf, the SEC largely has an advantage.

The BIG was further along than the SEC with this network stuff. The B1G had every right to try for 16 or 18 or whatever when expansion was hot and try to increase their east coast markets and domain.
The mindset at Maryland, and the enticements therein, proved not to be reflective of sentiment of individual schools across the board. Simply, there were key schools that did not want to go anywhere else, whether it was the BIG, SEC, or B12 for those left with lesser options.


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