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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:24 am 
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If the main knock against the Big 12 is that WVU is too far away from the main body....how does adding another team....just as far away....seem like the right move? Also, UCF is just as far from the main body as they are to WVU.
This idea doesn't add up to me.

I don't believe any team in Texas is interested in traveling to Fla on a regular basis after agreeing to travel to West Virginia.

I don't believe that there are two teams that are ready to be added to the Big 12....that would help the travel of WVU.
Cincy is close...but, who else do you add with them? Would it be another from the north...or south? I could see maybe...Memphis at some point??

I would like to see UL Laf. or New Mexico added to the south at some point in the future. To the north...Cincy is the only team I can think of. Unless, they add two non football teams....such as: Wichita State, St. Louis, Dayton or similar. The addition of non football teams would add quite a bit to the offerings for television....depending on the schools chosen. And non football teams could help to connect the schools together and reduce the travel between programs.

ULL and UNM are both large schools in their states. ULL is in a state known for football fanatics and recruiting. UNM is the largest school in the state, is located in a major hub for the state, and regularly play Texas schools in every sport, yearly. Both schools are close to, but not intruding on the footprint of the conference. And I believe that both could add much to the competitiveness of the conference. With the addition of more southern teams...the Oklahoma teams could be pushed into the northern part of the conference. Which would reunite the old Big 8 teams together again.

North - WVU, ISU, Kstate, Kansas, OU, OSU
South - ULL, UT, Baylor, TCU, Tech, New Mexico

or

North - WVU, Cincy, ISU, Kstate, Kansas, OSU
South - OU, Tech, TCU, Baylor, UT, New Mexico or ULL


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:00 am 
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Agreed on UCF and travel for the Big 12. UCF may be more practical as a future ACC expansion candidate.

Maybe a better alternative for the Big 12 would be to take BYU and Navy as football only members. It would be less costly an not require a full 20 to 25 million dollar share per school as football only membership.

East: Texas, Texas Tech, Baylor, TCU, West Virginia, Navy

West: Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, Kansas, Kansas St, Iowa St, BYU

If the Navy football only option would worked out, the conference could eventually add Army to the East and Air Force to the West.

Both Navy and BYU have good homes for basketball and Olympic sports and college football does not play on Sundays.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:55 pm 
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lash wrote:
Agreed on UCF and travel for the Big 12. UCF may be more practical as a future ACC expansion candidate.

Maybe a better alternative for the Big 12 would be to take BYU and Navy as football only members. It would be less costly an not require a full 20 to 25 million dollar share per school as football only membership.

East: Texas, Texas Tech, Baylor, TCU, West Virginia, Navy

West: Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, Kansas, Kansas St, Iowa St, BYU

If the Navy football only option would worked out, the conference could eventually add Army to the East and Air Force to the West.

Both Navy and BYU have good homes for basketball and Olympic sports and college football does not play on Sundays.


I'm probably in the strong minority, but I don't hate the BYU/Armed Forces football-only additions. I don't think it makes the conference any stronger, but I don't hate it. To add 2 more full-time programs, I'd say New Mexico and Cincinnati.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:17 pm 
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lash wrote:
Agreed on UCF and travel for the Big 12. UCF may be more practical as a future ACC expansion candidate.

Maybe a better alternative for the Big 12 would be to take BYU and Navy as football only members. It would be less costly an not require a full 20 to 25 million dollar share per school as football only membership.

East: Texas, Texas Tech, Baylor, TCU, West Virginia, Navy

West: Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, Kansas, Kansas St, Iowa St, BYU

If the Navy football only option would worked out, the conference could eventually add Army to the East and Air Force to the West.

Both Navy and BYU have good homes for basketball and Olympic sports and college football does not play on Sundays.


A conference cannot "take" a school. BYU has made it clear that they wish to be independent. Why on earth would Navy want to give up its future membership in the ACC o join a conference with most of its members half a continent away? Army? They can't even compete in the Patriot Conference and, again, most of the Big 12 is far, far away. Air Force has been very clear in the reasons they do not want to be in the Big 12.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:16 pm 
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lash wrote:
Maybe a better alternative for the Big 12 would be to take . . . football only members. It would be less costly an not require a full 20 to 25 million dollar share per school as football only membership.

I think that is the right approach. Since there are no schools worthy of a full $20-25 million per year share, find two good football programs and give those schools football-only affiliate contracts that pay them what they are actually worth to the Big 12 - for the duration of the GoR.

What they are actually worth is the sum of:
1) any increase in the tier 1 & 2 media deals resulting from the additional football "inventory"
2) net revenue generated by the annual CCG

Now I have no idea how much that would be, but for the sake of argument, let's say it totals $20 million per year. The Big 12 could then offer two football affiliates $10 million per year each, with no loss of revenue to the full members.

I think most G5 schools would jump at that offer - it's much better than what Boise St. and SDSU thought they would be getting from the old BE. If BYU wants to remain independent, then just extend the offer to Cincinnati and UCF. Both schools are currently making only $2-3 million per year in media money in the AAC. And, neither of those schools should have any trouble finding a suitable conference for their olympic sports.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:50 pm 
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B12 is looking at it as two more slices in the pie and nobody available/willing brings enough to make a remarkable increase in payout to each school. I am not sure I'd buy that until they get specific. If they add, certainly there is a clause in the ESPN/Fox contracts for upward adjustments and the value should depend on whose added and where.

Is the B12 losing significant revenue by not having a CCG? I'd like to see clear figures on it either way. They can compare/project based on old figures, though the conference composition has changed somewhat. But the sponsoring network would present a baseline figure. If they got two named and highly ranked teams in the CCG early on and most years, value could increase quickly.

This conference does not want to add right now. They are waiting to see how the playoff/bowl criteria further develops. But, that has been mostly done for the intial phase. They've already set up the selection committee for 2014. So, if they decide to expand, they seem to already have enough information on this to proceed. Somebody in the conference is arguing that 10 will work fine, and enough support to stay at 10 prevails for now.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:16 pm 
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Agreed, I don't see a way for Army or Navy to be in the Big 12. They are just too far away.

I must have missed what Air Force said regarding Big 12 membership. Can anyone point me in a direction on that article?

New Mexico would fit right in with the Big 12. And they have some very competitive Olympic sports. They would also put the conference in three time zones. Which should allow more options for TV game start times.

But, as it was said before....the Big 12 really isn't looking to expand for now.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:37 pm 
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Wow, this thread has picked up over the last week or two. If the Big 12 were to decide to expand and they went with western schools not named BYU, I think it would be a mistake. None of the schools out west really add anything in regards to TV markets and recruiting except for BYU who does help with TV viewership. I think the best move would be to move east. More TV sets, and better recruiting. Memphis and Cincinnati would help WVU with travel and would add TV sets. UCF and USF would offer the 4th largest TV market and entrance into some of the most fertile recruiting grounds in the entire nation.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:55 pm 
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mozilla wrote:
If the main knock against the Big 12 is that WVU is too far away from the main body....how does adding another team....just as far away....seem like the right move? Also, UCF is just as far from the main body as they are to WVU.
This idea doesn't add up to me.

I don't believe any team in Texas is interested in traveling to Fla on a regular basis after agreeing to travel to West Virginia.

I don't believe that there are two teams that are ready to be added to the Big 12....that would help the travel of WVU.
Cincy is close...but, who else do you add with them? Would it be another from the north...or south? I could see maybe...Memphis at some point??

I would like to see UL Laf. or New Mexico added to the south at some point in the future. To the north...Cincy is the only team I can think of. Unless, they add two non football teams....such as: Wichita State, St. Louis, Dayton or similar. The addition of non football teams would add quite a bit to the offerings for television....depending on the schools chosen. And non football teams could help to connect the schools together and reduce the travel between programs.

ULL and UNM are both large schools in their states. ULL is in a state known for football fanatics and recruiting. UNM is the largest school in the state, is located in a major hub for the state, and regularly play Texas schools in every sport, yearly. Both schools are close to, but not intruding on the footprint of the conference. And I believe that both could add much to the competitiveness of the conference. With the addition of more southern teams...the Oklahoma teams could be pushed into the northern part of the conference. Which would reunite the old Big 8 teams together again.

North - WVU, ISU, Kstate, Kansas, OU, OSU
South - ULL, UT, Baylor, TCU, Tech, New Mexico

or

North - WVU, Cincy, ISU, Kstate, Kansas, OSU
South - OU, Tech, TCU, Baylor, UT, New Mexico or ULL


WVU built a pipeline into the state of Florida playing South Florida and Miami. They got lots of kids from the state of Florida back then. Playing down here helps them with recruiting. It doesn't help with travel, but it sure helps in recruiting. ULL would be one of the worst options the Big 12 could have. What sport are they good at? Not meaning to be insulting to that school, I taught one of the starter on their D-line, but I don't think they could compete with any school, outside of maybe Kansas, in football. Louisiana is a good state to recruit, but I don't think the Texas schools have any problem recruiting that state as it is. Afterall, it is right next door. New Mexico has one really good high school football player a decade. I think the last one was Landry Jones, then Brian Urlacher, and before that I think it was Stoney Case. Not exactly a recruiting hotbed. Nor is it a TV ratings juggernaut. If the Big 12 goes that way, say goodbye to the Texhoma 4. When was the last time any of those teams beat a top 25 team, or they themselves were ranked? In all fairness, I think La-La was ranked a few years ago. UCF is at least a decade ahead of ULL and maybe 2 or 3 decades ahead of New Mexico. IMO UCF has better recruiting potential and if I am not mistaken, Orlando is slightly larger than Lafayette, LA.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:31 pm 
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Cliff Kingsbury's Texas Tech team is having an outstanding season so far. Baylor is real strong and unbeaten also. Those fine Southern Baptists, though, appear to keep running up the scores on weaker opponents. I'd like to see them play someone with an awesome defense.
OU, UT, and OSU could finish with remarkable seasons. Others have their moments, and Charlie Weis needs to keep building at Kansas in the recruiting aspect.

This conference looks to be doing very well in fb, and newbes' TCU and WVU are not the ones with the biggest successes.

Maybe UCF is a school worth grabbing. They already have notable, close wins this year over Penn State and Louisville, and a close home loss to So. Carolina.
Cincinatti had a big road loss to Illinois earlier in the season, and a road loss to USF. Cincy will play 2014 fb games in Paul Brown Stadium while Nippert Stadium is to be renovated. Their current coach, Tommy Turbeville, is well experienced, but has a string of former head coaching positions that did not always end in the best of circumstances.

Anyway, it looks like UCF and Cincy are ambitious and investing to move ahead. Whether either gains enough to attract the B12 remains to be seen. If the B12 decides to seriously look at expansion again, these two would certainly be discussed.

While true to their faith, BYU creates barriers for themselves. Not only will they not play sports on Sunday, but they see traveling back to Provo, Utah on a Sunday as unacceptable. While Sunday college fb games are not common, playing night games, particularly in certain other time zones, could involve travel after 12:00am Sunday (to start or arrive). This could really impact bb and other sports scheduling for BYU road games. Networks and major conferences will not always want to alter times just to suit BYU.

For some differing reasons, Texas (LHN, etc.), Notre Dame (no conference fb, NBC contract, etc.), and BYU (no Sunday play, Indy network), may be the three most difficult schools to negotiate with as to major conference transitions and alignments. BYU may be the most rigid of all.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:15 pm 
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hendu1976fl wrote:

WVU built a pipeline into the state of Florida playing South Florida and Miami. They got lots of kids from the state of Florida back then. Playing down here helps them with recruiting. It doesn't help with travel, but it sure helps in recruiting. ULL would be one of the worst options the Big 12 could have. What sport are they good at? Not meaning to be insulting to that school, I taught one of the starter on their D-line, but I don't think they could compete with any school, outside of maybe Kansas, in football. Louisiana is a good state to recruit, but I don't think the Texas schools have any problem recruiting that state as it is. Afterall, it is right next door. New Mexico has one really good high school football player a decade. I think the last one was Landry Jones, then Brian Urlacher, and before that I think it was Stoney Case. Not exactly a recruiting hotbed. Nor is it a TV ratings juggernaut. If the Big 12 goes that way, say goodbye to the Texhoma 4. When was the last time any of those teams beat a top 25 team, or they themselves were ranked? In all fairness, I think La-La was ranked a few years ago. UCF is at least a decade ahead of ULL and maybe 2 or 3 decades ahead of New Mexico. IMO UCF has better recruiting potential and if I am not mistaken, Orlando is slightly larger than Lafayette, LA.



WVU traded their pipeline into Fla when they agreed to join the Big 12. Now, they have a pipeline into Texas and Oklahoma.
Also, the Houston market is just as big as any market in Fla. And the Big 12 could still try to add a team from that region. UofH could add as much as a UCF..and make for much less travel for the whole conference. Not that I want UofH, necessarily......just sayin'.

But, you are correct....neither New Mexico nor Louisiana Laf have done much to prove themselves as complete programs. And would only be added to increase the footprint in the south.

I just don't know how much travel plays into deciding a conference addition when your making $20 million a year or more?? So, maybe a Fla school can be in the mix?? UCF and USF don't really have much of a history in football. And I have to think that 'history' and 'program success' play a role in the Big 12's decision making. Both Louisville and WVU are top notch in bball and fb. That's why I believe they were in for that last spot behind TCU. There just isn't much to choose from, with what's below the Big 12.

Is there any chance the Big 12 could pull Arkansas or Iowa? Could either be tired of fighting it out in a conference spread out all the way to the east coast? What does it take to pull a school out of a major conference?

Anyone have a top ten list for the Big 12 potential teams?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:13 pm 
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sec03 wrote:
Bishin Cutter,
"The Dude" can deliver a thoughful, common sense piece when he wants to do so.

http://www.sportsmancave.com/big-xii-mu ... s-to-wait/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


He's flip-flopping now. How is the B12 addition rule to be interpreted, because the per-school payout of the media deal is said to be "equal" no matter who is added (the whole "Appalachian State or Florida State" thing), with no per-school payout drop. Now, he's hinting it might?

I mean, if logic has finally caught up with him, that's great. But he's always spinning it like a tabloid or op-ed piece.

mozilla wrote:
I must have missed what Air Force said regarding Big 12 membership. Can anyone point me in a direction on that article?

New Mexico would fit right in with the Big 12. And they have some very competitive Olympic sports. They would also put the conference in three time zones. Which should allow more options for TV game start times.


AFA was referenced as a candidate, as revealed in one of the Oklahoma FoIA emails. Tulsa World, I think? Looks like the original story's been archived to ppv. I think there's a link to it on this forum some/many pages back (back in 2011). OU was sweet on them.

As for UNM...gotta feel bad for the Lobos. They were kind of supposed to be original #11 or #12 before Tech and Baylor.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:02 pm 
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mozilla wrote:
Agreed, I don't see a way for Army or Navy to be in the Big 12. They are just too far away.

I must have missed what Air Force said regarding Big 12 membership. Can anyone point me in a direction on that article?

New Mexico would fit right in with the Big 12. And they have some very competitive Olympic sports. They would also put the conference in three time zones. Which should allow more options for TV game start times.

But, as it was said before....the Big 12 really isn't looking to expand for now.

Here is a link to an article in the Colorado Springs Gazette. While it deals mostly with the failed attempt at the Big East getting western teams, it does mention that Air Force refused overtures from the Big 12. Ultimately, the MVC said no to Air Force's oly sports, the MWC told them they were either all in or all out, and the Big East western expansion collapsed.

Three time zone conferences are really hard on the athletes when they have to travel two zones west for a late game. That is a big reason why Texas doesn't want to be in the PAC.

There are other articles about Air Force not wanting to be in the Big 12 in the Gazette and, probably, the Denver post. Use the AD's name, Mueh and Big 12, as search parameters.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:40 am 
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I have no links but lots of rumors circulating about the Big 12 expanding back to 12 with Cincy and UCF.

Not sure if true but I'm hoping it just noise.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:33 am 
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Assuming neither the XII nor ACC break apart, the XII would need to expand to keep up or if the Power 5 break away. XII only really has the MWC and AAC to look to with few exceptions. Looking at contiguous states (as if XII cares anymore), MWC teams contiguous to XII states or within XII footprint include: New Mexico, Colorado St, and Air Force. AAC teams contiguous to XII states or within XII footprint include: Houston, SMU, Tulane, Tulsa, Navy, and Cincinnati. Other schools that are or should be on the XII radar: BYU, Memphis, USF, UCF, Notre Dame, Connecticut, and Northern Illinois. A few may sound strange, but they are either in contiguous states, bridgeable states, or large markets.


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