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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:23 am 
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We hear that conferences don't care much any more about distance and travel. But that has been the big complaint coming from WVU interests. There's even been complaints by other B12 schools about traveling to Morgantown. Most of the issues related to this appear to be sports other than fb. On fb, have to agree that it is tough for WVU traveling fans to attend away conference games. At least for Iowa State (with Nebraska and Mizzou gone), they still have the Kansas schools within comfortable distance.

To link to WVU, there is so little. Other than Cincy, there is Northern Illinois, Western Kentucky, Arkansas State, Memphis, Ohio U., Ball State, Middle Tennessee, etc. Most would not be given a serious look. Cincy would at least be 'respectable', given the alternatives. Northern Illinois could be a decent possibility, but expect the directional name, and perhaps certain facilities, would hold them back.

Even if Cincy was added, it may do little to really strengthen 'a link". But it could be one of the better #11 or #12 prospects if looking east. Of course UCF offers a new market and they are garnering improving athletic success with good facilities and a desirable venue. But, travel distance shall remain a concern for non-fb sports.

Too bad Tulane, an AAU private school, is not more prominent with athletic successes in recent times. New Orleans would be a great location for B12 games. LA Tech, UL-L, or UL-M, don't appear to offer enough value.

I'd like to have seen WVU in the ACC, and the B12 look at some MWC schools (CSU, UNM, etc.) to expand. That could better than ending up 'all over the place' to plug in numbers to reach 12 or 14.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:40 am 
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tkalmus wrote:
I have no links but lots of rumors circulating about the Big 12 expanding back to 12 with Cincy and UCF.

Not sure if true but I'm hoping it just noise.

Until the Big 12 expands back to 12, there will always be speculation of future expansion.


I believe it is just noise with expansion at this time for the Big 12.

There is no need for the Big 12 to expand. Maybe after the playoff begins next year, there could be some push if the lack of a championship game would be the direct reason for a Big 12 team to miss out on the four team playoff.

A lot of fans what to point to 10 teams as instability, however, the Big 12 is probably as secure as any of the power leagues.

The same arguments uses for WVU travel would be created for a tier one schools such as Texas if that school wanted to join the Big Ten or Pac 10.

Unless Texas had a change of heart and wanted to join the SEC, I do not see Texas having any benefits of joining any other league because of the same travel issues that hamper WVU. WVU had not other choice but jump from a failing Big East, Texas does not have too jump.

As long as Texas stays put, there is no reason to believe Oklahoma would jump to less friendly regional conference as well.

I continue to believe that schools in the more coveted ACC markets will be wanted by the Big Ten and future SEC networks.

The Big 12 can sit tight until many of these conference GOR are up for renewal including the Big 12 and make decisions about expansion at that time when college landscape could be a much different in the next decade.

In the mean time, 10 schools and round robin football is the best option for every 10 member school including WVU which has more travel issues.

Again unless the lack of championship game is the primary reason for keeping a future Big 12 school from making the four team playoff, the Bi12 is great shape to remain at 10 schools for the long term future.

I would not be too concerned with the Big 12 knee jerking and taking schools just for the sake of having the same membership as other power leagues.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:55 am 
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sec03 wrote:
To link to WVU, there is so little. Other than Cincy, there is Northern Illinois, Western Kentucky, Arkansas State, Memphis, Ohio U., Ball State, Middle Tennessee, etc. Most would not be given a serious look. Cincy would at least be 'respectable', given the alternatives.


This is why (if an 11/12 had to be added because a CCG was required for the new playoff system) I've been pulling for Cincy and UConn.

Both are considered "respectable" programs both were AQs in the old Big East and both have been to a BCS game.

Also the hidden motive would be that both Cincy, UConn, and WVU could all join the ACC.

If the PAC12 decided that it needs Texas/OU badly enough they could strike a deal for the ACC to grab those three programs (and go to 17/18 w/ ND) and the PAC12 could become the PAC18 w/ the Texhoma+Kansas duo.

That would give 9 out of 12 a safe landing spot (or 75%, the magic number to dissolve the conference and the GOR) while virtually regulating the Big 12 (now just TCU, Baylor, ISU) down to AAC/MWC status.

Adding BYU, UCF, USF, Colorado St, or UNM would just add another leach of a school who likely will never upgrade conferences ever again (like TCU/Baylor/ISU) and would sue anyone/everyone (or join Baylor's lawsuit) in order to stay in a relevant conference.

Thus getting a "respectable" addition that could go to another conference like the ACC someday should be the Big 12's goal, not someone who will/can never move forward.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:23 pm 
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tkalmus wrote:

Also the hidden motive would be that both Cincy, UConn, and WVU could all join the ACC.

If the PAC12 decided that it needs Texas/OU badly enough they could strike a deal for the ACC to grab those three programs (and go to 17/18 w/ ND) and the PAC12 could become the PAC18 w/ the Texhoma+Kansas duo.


Good points and that's a consideration. It could happen whereby the ACC would really need WVU, UConn, and/or Cincy in the future to maintain for 14 or possibly go to 16. If the ACC's GoR shows a weakness at a future point, the B1G and/or SEC may be right there to extract a few.

I really don't see anybody else in the B12 heading to the SEC. Maybe though, if it unlikely became a situation of Oklahoma coming alone. Texas & OU with TTU & OSU (or maybe Kansas in there) to the PAC12 appears way more plausible since it would be the strongest grouping for the PAC12 to reach 16 or so if the super-conference--new division happens.

I think the SEC really wants a North Carolina school the most, plus a second school in the east (ACC), and move Mizzou to the west.

The B1G probably still has its eyes on UVA, and could easily find a second one (B12 or the ACC) if UVA broke loose, But I don't believe it will be a huge mass that depart the ACC.

I think 16 is the magic number for B1G, SEC, & PAC12. The ACC can reach 16 too even with four extractions.

Agree, the B12 could be left with just three or four schools searching. If it gets that low, I expect a new conference could be formed with those remaining and additions from the MWC and the AAC. But, one or both of those conferences, could just absorb the remainder of the B12 to reach their own 16 or so. No body in the current B12 is going to want to be left out of the super-conference, so nothing with this shall be easy.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:13 am 
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sec03 wrote:
tkalmus wrote:

Also the hidden motive would be that both Cincy, UConn, and WVU could all join the ACC.

If the PAC12 decided that it needs Texas/OU badly enough they could strike a deal for the ACC to grab those three programs (and go to 17/18 w/ ND) and the PAC12 could become the PAC18 w/ the Texhoma+Kansas duo.


Good points and that's a consideration. It could happen whereby the ACC would really need WVU, UConn, and/or Cincy in the future to maintain for 14 or possibly go to 16. If the ACC's GoR shows a weakness at a future point, the B1G and/or SEC may be right there to extract a few.

I really don't see anybody else in the B12 heading to the SEC. Maybe though, if it unlikely became a situation of Oklahoma coming alone. Texas & OU with TTU & OSU (or maybe Kansas in there) to the PAC12 appears way more plausible since it would be the strongest grouping for the PAC12 to reach 16 or so if the super-conference--new division happens.

I think the SEC really wants a North Carolina school the most, plus a second school in the east (ACC), and move Mizzou to the west.

The B1G probably still has its eyes on UVA, and could easily find a second one (B12 or the ACC) if UVA broke loose, But I don't believe it will be a huge mass that depart the ACC.

I think 16 is the magic number for B1G, SEC, & PAC12. The ACC can reach 16 too even with four extractions.

Agree, the B12 could be left with just three or four schools searching. If it gets that low, I expect a new conference could be formed with those remaining and additions from the MWC and the AAC. But, one or both of those conferences, could just absorb the remainder of the B12 to reach their own 16 or so. No body in the current B12 is going to want to be left out of the super-conference, so nothing with this shall be easy.


I think the ultimate problem for the ACC will be that schools will leave, regardless of the GOR situation, if the Big Ten, SEC expanded. So them getting to 16 is less of an issue since they become a Forgotten5 conference as soon as that happens.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:55 am 
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With the latest sanctions or better stated lack of consistent sanctions by the NCAA for the U of Miami, the "Big Boy Conferences" have clearly put the NCAA on notice. The British Monarchy comes to mind when thinking about the power the NCAA provides to major college football these days.

Since the NCAA is virtually useless in making decisions that impact major college football and a new NCAA division planned specifically for the five power conference just around the corner, the Big 12 should just proceed with scheduling a football championship game with 10 members.

This years threats of a breakaway from the NCAA by the five power conferences must be working. Too bad for Penn State and USC this threat did not occur a few years back.

Ok back to the Big 12. What could the NCAA do if the Big 12 just proceeded with breaking into two five team divisions and playing a championship game.

Blue: Texas, Texas Tech, Oklahoma State, Kansas, WVU

Red: Baylor, TCU, Oklahoma, Kansas State, Iowa State

This year's championship game would be shaping up to possibly have undefeated Baylor playing either Texas Tech or Texas in Dallas Cowboy Stadium.

Does the NCAA really have any power to challenge this option. Or maybe better stated, would the NCAA want to make any challenges against the five power conferences for fear they will break away and take their Billion Dollar NCAA basketball contract which basically funds the NCAA with it.

I say just go for it Big 12 and split into five team divisions to play a football championship game and avoid the messy need to expand with additional schools.

Really, does anybody today believe the NCAA has any power at all to police major college football?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:27 pm 
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A point to be made, as a WVU alumnus, is the lack of any "geographic" athletic pertinence. To explain, Monday's were all about showing up at work and giving or recieving the necessary grief to your co-workers from Pitt, PSU, Maryland, Syracuse, VTech, Rutgers, etc... Or knocking out your brother-in-laws School from the tournament, being ranked higher than your partners Team. These people generally were eaither alumni or fans of the "local" DI schools.
Although I agree, wholeheardedly, that WVU had to bail out of the sinking Big Least Conference, we are left looking around trying to find a single alumnus from our current conference alignment. Any longtime Big XII fan can appreciate the Intra and Interstate excitement of your school competing against a "local" rival. You have competed to get common recruits, have family or friends who attended other conference school's, and have generally developed a healthy "dislike" for that special rival ....ie "Pitt Sucks". The ACC would have provided us with that. I know it is ALL about the $$$, but as an WVU alumnus, it's depressing. Olver Luck was WVU's quaterback when I was in Medical School at WVU, and he will move on to Texas in the near future. I go back to the Bobby Bowden day's during my undergraduate year's , so the loss of local rival's is a big price to pay to grab the first viable (or only) offer that came along. Beat Pitt !!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:00 am 
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vito wrote:
A point to be made, as a WVU alumnus, is the lack of any "geographic" athletic pertinence. To explain, Monday's were all about showing up at work and giving or recieving the necessary grief to your co-workers from Pitt, PSU, Maryland, Syracuse, VTech, Rutgers, etc... Or knocking out your brother-in-laws School from the tournament, being ranked higher than your partners Team. These people generally were eaither alumni or fans of the "local" DI schools.
Although I agree, wholeheardedly, that WVU had to bail out of the sinking Big Least Conference, we are left looking around trying to find a single alumnus from our current conference alignment. Any longtime Big XII fan can appreciate the Intra and Interstate excitement of your school competing against a "local" rival. You have competed to get common recruits, have family or friends who attended other conference school's, and have generally developed a healthy "dislike" for that special rival ....ie "Pitt Sucks". The ACC would have provided us with that. I know it is ALL about the $$$, but as an WVU alumnus, it's depressing. Olver Luck was WVU's quaterback when I was in Medical School at WVU, and he will move on to Texas in the near future. I go back to the Bobby Bowden day's during my undergraduate year's , so the loss of local rival's is a big price to pay to grab the first viable (or only) offer that came along. Beat Pitt !!



I totally hear ya!

I can only suggest you look into having each of those big rivals as out of conference games. Just like when Texas scheduled Oklahoma every year we were in the SWC. OOC, it can be done. We also, still play Rice quite a bit...even though we aren't in the same conf.

Also, look at the alternative.....a schedule containing all of your favorites...such as: UofH, SMU, Memphis, Tulane, Tulsa....should I go on? WVU has the competition now....that if they win the conf....they would be in the hunt for National Champ. Not just AAC champ....which is next to nothing.

Anyway, ...I really am glad the Big 12 brought in WVU. I'm sorry y'all are so far away....but, maybe that will change and we'll get some more Midwest teams to make you feel more at home.

I am all for Pitt in the Big 12. And maybe Virginia. How does that sound?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:17 am 
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I don't think WVU was a bad choice for the Big XII. It's a flagship with a pretty good athletic department. Certainly better than Pitt's or Syracuse's regarding the two top revenue sports, but understandably "less desirable" based on the market and academic metrics. I don't fault them for leaving the Big East, either. That conference was doomed to fail the moment they voted against Penn State in the early/mid 80's. Whether WVU helped to destroy it (I don't think they did, Villanova's awful upgrade plan, Pitt and 'Cuse are the guilty parties on that one), doesn't matter...it was always a bad marriage of schools.

The value (and key) to conference expansion/realignment is the alumni footprint. Go where the populations best mingle. While you won't find many Texas or Oklahoma alums in West Virginia, and maybe vice-versa, I suspect the Big XII's hesitance/resistance to westward expansion since its inception has a big part to do with the majority of those schools' alumni populating the Central and Eastern time zones and not the Mountain and Pacific ones.

On both sides, WVU to the Big XII and vice versa, each was a means to be an end. WVU got more stability and further away to terrible conference, and the Big XII got an eastern flagship school that fields competent revenue sports. I live near Philly...I can honestly say that I now see more Big XII games on basic cable than I EVER did before. I think WVU is a big reason why that is. While it sucks to see The Backyard Brawl paused, at least you're not UConn.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:51 am 
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Agrre that in the long run, it may be a win-win for all parties.
Pitt still sucks.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:29 am 
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Yeah, I grew up in western PA, and it seemd that every kid (but me) in my high school class went to Pitt, PSU,WVU (we'll throw some Duquesne, CMU, and Slippery rock in there...)

It stinks that the PSU-Pitt-WVU rivalries are gone. The first college football game I went to was a last second-thriller in the 1960s between Pitt and WVU. I miss it.

I will say PSU is a HUGE land-grant university that is much more similar to the Big Ten Schools, and they are perhaps abetter institutional match for the Big Ten than the somewhat smaller colleges like:
WVU, Pitt, Syracuse, Temple, BC, UConn, Virginia Tech. This latter group belongs together and hopefully they can be reunited when the ACC expands again.

Oliver Luck did what he had to do, to find WVU a home (any home) in one of the 5 Power Conferences.
They had to pay a hefty exit fee to the Big East, but they've already earned that back, with Big XII TV paying out > $20 mill / year, and the AAC paying out 1-2 mill / yr.
Geographically, WV belongs in the ACC or SEC.

I would have preferred Mizzou ot the Big Ten, and WVU to the SEC East.

On one thread, a Big Ten President or AD was quoted as saying "we woul've invited Missouri, had we known they were serious about leaving the Big XII".
HUH ??? Mizzou was literally throwing themselves at the Big Ten !!!
I won't deny that Nebraska may be more attractive than Missouri to some, but certainly any well-informed individual would have had to know Mizzou was available.

I am hoping that ultimately, the Big XII falls apart, and the teams are SOMEWHAT LOGICALLY dispersed among the other 4 Conferences, with WVU ot the ACC or SEC East.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:54 pm 
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Most expansion with the major conferences have been incremental and not by grand design. Even with two or three coming into a conference at a time, it's still largely incremental. It comes with the right opportunity.

The WVU alum a few posts above certainly made a valid point relating to no close conference rivalries. Frankly, the predicament was mostly created by the ACC. The ACC has taken 7 former BE/AAC members: Miami, BC, VPI, Pitt, Syracuse, ND (partial as was in the old BE), and Louisville (to replace MD). The B1G took 1 (Rutgers) from the old BE/AAC; and the B12 took technically 2, WVU and TCU (that had committed to the BE). In fairness, all wanted to escape the old BE, but among those left behind, not all of them experience consequences that are particularly delightful.

The SEC did add two from the B12, but that followed Nebraska's departure for the B1G, and Colorado commiting to the PAC12.

The SEC did not add WVU because they had better options to the west. Some of the same reasons, but not all of them in exact fashion, why the B1G and the ACC have refused to add WVU, also applies as to why the SEC has not absorbed them.

The B12 declining Louisville, and opting for just WVU and in-footprint TCU (as some State of Texas balance since Texas A&M left for the SEC) looks now to be a strategic mistake if the B12 was ever to contemplate getting back to 12-plus. Then with Maryland leaving for the B1G, the ACC adds Louisville, but had always rejected WVU which was a natural rival to several of the ACC schools and would have made the ACC still geographically contiguous and lessened the blow with losing Maryland. Obviously, these Commissioners and conference Presidents have taken sling-shot approaches to expansion, have shown little cooperating activity in reaching mutually beneficial grand designs, and produced track records of whom are the aggressors and whom are the defenders. The ACC has played both roles, but now are the big defenders. The B12? Probably that conference is more split on it than they publically show. Some in the B12 know they could have improved future options, while others in the conference never want to see more breakage in the B12.

And this Mizzou-to-the-B1G advocacy is getting really old. If the B1G really wanted them, they blew their golden chance, which again points to the way expansion has been approached as noted above. And that old argument that Mizzou cannot compete in fb in the SEC, that's been highly diminished by the current SEC-east leader in their second conference season.

WVU's one hope is that the B12 will expand some in the east to offer a few more plausible rivalries. Where all of them can be found is a real puzzle. The other is wait till the ACC has to turn to WVU.

WVU could be of some value to the SEC perhaps, as some combo with Va Tech or UVA. But that situation probably will never unfold or get elevated as a real preference. With the SEC network/regional ESPN headquartered in Charlotte, the priority for a plausible addition(s) in North Carolina may only grow. The plan may be for the SEC network to reach at least a compatible level to the BTN, along with other revenue outlays, and see the gap grow from what the ACC can garner. The divide may reach a point that it is so extensive, the ACC's GoR begins to crack. It'll take time, but how the ACC is now, chances are more that it will ultimately happen.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:46 pm 
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tute79 wrote:

On one thread, a Big Ten President or AD was quoted as saying "we woul've invited Missouri, had we known they were serious about leaving the Big XII".
HUH ??? Mizzou was literally throwing themselves at the Big Ten !!!
I won't deny that Nebraska may be more attractive than Missouri to some, but certainly any well-informed individual would have had to know Mizzou was available.

I am hoping that ultimately, the Big XII falls apart, and the teams are SOMEWHAT LOGICALLY dispersed among the other 4 Conferences, with WVU ot the ACC or SEC East.


You are referring to Elwood G. Gee, former head of TheOSU. The only person throwing Mizzou at the B1G was our idiot Governor. The B1G decided to "punish" Mizzou by making them wait a couple of year because the idiot Governor couldn't keep his mouth shut. Elwood more or less said that the B1G would have invited Mizzou with NU if they had realized that Mizzou actually had other options.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:50 pm 
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sec03 wrote:

The B12 declining Louisville, and opting for just WVU and in-footprint TCU (as some State of Texas balance since Texas A&M left for the SEC) looks now to be a strategic mistake if the B12 was ever to contemplate getting back to 12-plus. Then with Maryland leaving for the B1G, the ACC adds Louisville, but had always rejected WVU which was a natural rival to several of the ACC schools and would have made the ACC still geographically contiguous and lessened the blow with losing Maryland. Obviously, these Commissioners and conference Presidents have taken sling-shot approaches to expansion, have shown little cooperating activity in reaching mutually beneficial grand designs, and produced track records of whom are the aggressors and whom are the defenders. The ACC has played both roles, but now are the big defenders. The B12? Probably that conference is more split on it than they publically show. Some in the B12 know they could have improved future options, while others in the conference never want to see more breakage in the B12.

And this Mizzou-to-the-B1G advocacy is getting really old. If the B1G really wanted them, they blew their golden chance, which again points to the way expansion has been approached as noted above. And that old argument that Mizzou cannot compete in fb in the SEC, that's been highly diminished by the current SEC-east leader in their second conference season.



The Big 12 didn't refuse to invite Louisville. Louisville refused to sue the Big East to get out early. The Big 12 had to have a school for the next year to keep the tv contracts. WVU was the only option.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:46 pm 
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To be fair to the Big XII, it did get two schools who were really eager to join it. TCU had been maneuvering ever since the dissolution of the SWC to get back with Texas and A&M (well, it got one of the two). WVU wanted to go anywhere than where it was, and was willing to do whatever it took to make it happen ASAP. They may not be the ideal partners for that conference, but it's not like the Big XII had to beg to get them.


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