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 Post subject: Big East out of BCS?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:46 am 
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It's a bad news day for Big East hopes. Posted below is an article from SU's Daily Orange. If this isn't bad enough, the ND Nation board is abuzz with a rumor that Notre Dame has struck a deal with the ACC for membership with divisional play only for football.

www.dailyorange.com/news/467575.html


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 Post subject: Big East out of BCS?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:24 pm 
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Registered info, sir. Can you copy and paste the article for us outsiders?


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 Post subject: Big East out of BCS?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:29 pm 
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Started searching the NDnation boards, but sorry, could not find what you were looking at FriarFan.

Did come accross this suggestive headline about ND joining the ACC in a search though, and got all excited:

http://www.msnbc.com/news/920275.asp

Then I looked at the date (smile)

More info or links would be appreciated...
----------------
And GunnerFan, here is the FriarFan DailyOrange article:

Money matters: Without it, the Big East could split or cease to exist

By Pete Iorizzo
You saw right through them, didn't you?

Academic initiatives? The betterment of student-athletes? Fan-friendly schedules? Please. You knew better.

Money, you said, drove the Atlantic Coast Conference to court four Big East schools. Money, you knew, led Miami and Virginia Tech to agree to dance. And money, you fumed, left Syracuse and Boston College at the altar.

You know what? SU Director of Athletics Jake Crouthamel agreed.

"All the decisions were made from a financial standpoint, based primarily on finances," Crouthamel said. "It is not cheap to run a Division I-A program like ours.

"It's a business. A fairly significant business."

But money, Crouthamel said, is about more than greed. Money funds student-athlete services like academic support. Money stops him from eliminating sports. And money is what many athletic departments are hurting for most.

More than two months after Miami and Virginia Tech bolted to the ACC, Syracuse and the remaining 12 Big East schools stand on dubious financial grounds. Simply put, to continue operating effectively, they need money.

Where is it going to come from? Right now, your guess is as good as theirs.



Two problems

Your first lesson in college sports economics: Most programs lose money.

Sixty-five percent of Division I athletic departments break even or worse. Even winners on the field lose in the checkbook. Two seasons ago, Miami won the football national championship but reportedly lost $1.5 million.

The problem is two-fold: The growing popularity of college sports has touched off a "collegiate arms race" that threatens to bring economic destruction to some schools, and the cost of Title IX compliance continues to grow, said Dennis Howard, a professor of sports marketing at Oregon.

"A lot of it is self-inflicted," Howard said. "Programs are spending at enormous rates."

Universities - including Connecticut and West Virginia in the Big East - have poured money into new facilities in hopes of attracting fans and top recruits. But costs have become so exorbitant that expenses are outweighing returns, Howard said.

Title IX - legislation requiring schools to strive toward gender equity in sports - has stripped some universities of money-making men's programs and replaced them with non-revenue women's programs, Howard said.

"The general population thinks all of us here at the university are rolling in cash," Crouthamel said.

"They think, 'I bring my wife, son and daughter to a football game, and I pay exorbitant prices for a ticket' - by the way, we're seventh lowest in the Big East - 'and these high prices for a hot dog. After it's all done, I've spent $100 or $200, and that's all profit to the university. There are no expenses. They're rolling in dough. Everything is profit.' "

Like most schools, SU relies on ticket sales as one of its most significant revenue sources, Crouthamel said.

But the athletic department receives virtually no money from concessions, parking or other Carrier Dome amenities, Crouthamel said, because some of those services are contracted out.

Large private schools, like Syracuse and Miami, burn at least $8 to $10 million in scholarships, salaries and travel expenses, Crouthamel said.

"Now take that right off the top," he said. "You can't make it."



Two solutions

All of that, of course, is not to say athletic programs are poverty-stricken. Fat conference contracts help trump some expenses.

Aside from ticket sales, athletic departments rely heavily on two revenue sources from conference affiliations: television contracts, and, for six lucky conferences, lucrative affiliations with the Bowl Championship Series.

The Big East's future in both is questionable.

Its football television contract with ABC Sports and ESPN expires in 2007, but ABC has the right to renegotiate next season when Miami and Virginia Tech leave.

Men's basketball-wise, the Big East should be stable. The NCAA has an 11-year, $6 billion contract with CBS, and Miami and Virginia Tech's moves should not drastically affect the Big East's regional deal. But the football contract generates far more revenue.

The Big East will certainly lose television money, Crouthamel said, and even if the conference adds two football schools, the hit could be significant.

"You find out when you get back to the table with these people what the damage really is," Crouthamel said.

Big East schools can probably weather a watered-down football television contract, but only if the conference maintains its position in the BCS, a much more significant revenue source supplying about $16 million annually to the conference.

"If we find out we're in the BCS, we're going to make it," Crouthamel said.

But the Big East's position there is even more uncertain. The BCS agreement expires in 2005. After that, three things could happen: the BCS could continue with the Big East as a member, the BCS could continue without the Big East or the BCS could cease to exist.

"My opinion is if the BCS remains in existence, the Big East drops out," said professor Daniel Fulks, a Transylvania (Ky.) accounting professor who prepares the NCAA's revenues and expenses report.

In Indianapolis this summer, Fulks met with a major conference commissioner during a committee meeting. Casually, the commissioner mentioned five BCS conferences, even though there are currently six.

Fulks asked him, 'Aren't you jumping the gun? Or have you already eliminated the Big East?'"

The commissioner laughed.



Two philosophies

The Big East and ACC differ in how they distribute BCS and television revenues to their individual schools, and Miami left the Big East largely because of those differences.

Think of each conference's revenue as a pizza.

The ACC gives one slice to each school, regardless of performance. In 2001-02, each piece was reportedly worth $9.7 million.

The Big East, meanwhile, gives one smaller slice to each school, reportedly worth about $1.5 million to $2 million. But in the Big East, schools can earn toppings through performance incentives.

For instance, according to reports, Miami earns an extra $4 million for its BCS berth. Universities also gain incentives through national-television appearances and other bowl games.

"The incentive system rewards those who actually generate the money," Fulks said. "The even split is better for the have-nots. It's socialism at its finest, whereas the incentive system is more like capitalism.

"Do you want to reward those who actually generate the revenue? Or do you want to hand out to the poor?"

Even though the Big East system has rewarded Miami because of its strong football program - and even though the Big East offered Miami a reported five-year, $45 million deal to stay - President Donna Shalala and Athletics Director Paul Dee favored the long-term stability of the ACC's system.

"It wasn't the money, because frankly the Big East made a better financial offer over the next five years," Shalala told reporters in June. "It was a sense of the future."

The Big East's future may be a system closer to the ACC's. Though Crouthamel believes the Big East will keep incentives, it will lower the incentives and raise the base distributions.

In other words, there are fewer toppings, but each team starts with extra cheese.



Infinite possibilities

For Syracuse and the rest of the Big East, the only thing certain right now is uncertainty, and it's likely to last until the BCS and television contracts have been settled.

Should the Big East add two football-playing schools and remain in the BCS, Syracuse could operate without any noticeable changes, even if television revenues were stifled, Crouthamel said.

"It will be apparent budget-wise," Crouthamel said. "But it won't be apparent to you or anyone else."

If the Big East loses its BCS position, changes could be sweeping. The Big East could disintegrate, spawning an earthquake that would dramatically shake the college sports landscape. Or the Big East could operate as a virtual mid-major conference. Or it could fracture into two conferences, with the football schools separating themselves.

"I don't know where the Big East ends up," said Fulks, the professor who compiles the NCAA revenues and expenses report. "Who do you have? Boston College and Pittsburgh? That's not BCS material. The Big East should probably go away, and remaining members should align themselves with other conferences."

But Crouthamel has been steadfast in his desire to see the Big East rebuilt into a national power.

You laughed at him for that. A Big East without its top football schools? No chance, you said.

This time, Crouthamel disagreed.

"What you're saying is we're hanging on Virginia Tech and Miami's coattails," Crouthamel said. "Well, we don't have their coattails anymore. So let's the rest of us step up. That's what we're going to do. There's no alternative for us."


Last edited by javaman on Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Big East out of BCS?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:37 pm 
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Quote:
Started searching the NDnation boards, but sorry, could not find what you were looking at FriarFan.

I was perplexed as well. The closest thing I could find was a thread about staying away from the ACC: http://www.ndnation.com/boards/index.cgi?conference


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 Post subject: Big East out of BCS?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:38 pm 
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Javaman, thanks for posting the article. Check www.NDNation.com. I have now seen this same rumor also being reported on the SyracseFan board. In both cases, the rumor has been reported by one of the most knowledgable & respedted posted on the respective forums, in each case a poster who apparently has some kind of inside access. On the Syracuse board, the rumor says ACC for all sports except football. I think that this is unlikely, the partial football rumor makes more sense.


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 Post subject: Big East out of BCS?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:36 pm 
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Using the Syracuse board(http://www.syracuse.com/forums/orangefootball/, Topic: Bad rumor) as a starting point, I was led to the ND Rivals board (http://bgi.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=335&tid=22429474&sid=&style=2) and subsequently the West Virginia board (http://westvirginia.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=33&mid=22415936&sid=&tid=22415936&style=1). There are many threads regarding this rumor on the WV board. I believe that the WV URL given here is the oldest thread. BTW, I don't buy it. ;)


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 Post subject: Big East out of BCS?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:22 pm 
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Javaman, let me give you some additional information for navigating the NDNation.com website. When you get there, look for "Rock's House" on the bar up toward the top & hit that. Wne the new screen comes up with a football message board, look for "Conference" on that same top bar. When you hit Conference, it will bring up a message board with posts just about conference issues.


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 Post subject: Big East out of BCS?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:53 pm 
The commissioner laughed at the BE?Dr.Fulks says the Big East drops out of new BCS contract?What is the world coming to?I of course wouldn't chuckle at the Big East's predicament but rest assured there are many Owl fans that would ;D ;D ;D ;D.


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 Post subject: Big East out of BCS?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:06 pm 
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Quote:
Using the Syracuse board(http://www.syracuse.com/forums/orangefootball/, Topic: Bad rumor) as a starting point, I was led to the ND Rivals board (http://bgi.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=335&tid=22429474&sid=&style=2) and subsequently the West Virginia board (http://westvirginia.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=33&mid=22415936&sid=&tid=22415936&style=1). There are many threads regarding this rumor on the WV board. I believe that the WV URL given here is the oldest thread. BTW, I don't buy it. ;)


Cybercat, the message appeared on the NDNation.com message board yesterday afternoon. The West Virginia post appeared at 10:00 this morning. Your link to the Notre Dame Rivals board is obviously a reaction to one of the two, but this rumor started with a Notre Dame poster not on the West Virginia board.

You're not buying it? I should hope not. :) Although internet rumors can make for interesting reading, they certainly are not reliable. Given the reputations of the source on the Notre Dame board & the other on the Syracuse board, however, I would surmise that Notre Dame is having somewhat serious conversations with the ACC, suggesting one more avenue is up for grabs.


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 Post subject: Big East out of BCS?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:32 pm 
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Thanks Friarfan, cybercat, and others, was finally able to read some of these for myself.

They don't sound like very substantial rumors to me either, but would be consistent with apparent contacts to see where ND could get the best deal. I do not believe at all that the controlling ACC schools would accept ND on any other than equal terms. The original ACC core schools are too proud, and of the newer schools, why would Miami give away all it has gained.

This rumor makes absolutely no sense to me...

>: :(


Last edited by javaman on Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Big East out of BCS?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:56 am 
Money matters: Without it, the Big East could split or cease to exist

By Pete Iorizzo
You saw right through them, didn't you?

Academic initiatives? The betterment of student-athletes? Fan-friendly schedules? Please. You knew better.

Money, you said, drove the Atlantic Coast Conference to court four Big East schools. Money, you knew, led Miami and Virginia Tech to agree to dance. And money, you fumed, left Syracuse and Boston College at the altar.

You know what? SU Director of Athletics Jake Crouthamel agreed.

"All the decisions were made from a financial standpoint, based primarily on finances," Crouthamel said. "It is not cheap to run a Division I-A program like ours.

"It's a business. A fairly significant business."

But money, Crouthamel said, is about more than greed. Money funds student-athlete services like academic support. Money stops him from eliminating sports. And money is what many athletic departments are hurting for most.

More than two months after Miami and Virginia Tech bolted to the ACC, Syracuse and the remaining 12 Big East schools stand on dubious financial grounds. Simply put, to continue operating effectively, they need money.

Where is it going to come from? Right now, your guess is as good as theirs.



Two problems

Your first lesson in college sports economics: Most programs lose money.

Sixty-five percent of Division I athletic departments break even or worse. Even winners on the field lose in the checkbook. Two seasons ago, Miami won the football national championship but reportedly lost $1.5 million.

The problem is two-fold: The growing popularity of college sports has touched off a "collegiate arms race" that threatens to bring economic destruction to some schools, and the cost of Title IX compliance continues to grow, said Dennis Howard, a professor of sports marketing at Oregon.

"A lot of it is self-inflicted," Howard said. "Programs are spending at enormous rates."

Universities - including Connecticut and West Virginia in the Big East - have poured money into new facilities in hopes of attracting fans and top recruits. But costs have become so exorbitant that expenses are outweighing returns, Howard said.

Title IX - legislation requiring schools to strive toward gender equity in sports - has stripped some universities of money-making men's programs and replaced them with non-revenue women's programs, Howard said.

"The general population thinks all of us here at the university are rolling in cash," Crouthamel said.

"They think, 'I bring my wife, son and daughter to a football game, and I pay exorbitant prices for a ticket' - by the way, we're seventh lowest in the Big East - 'and these high prices for a hot dog. After it's all done, I've spent $100 or $200, and that's all profit to the university. There are no expenses. They're rolling in dough. Everything is profit.' "

Like most schools, SU relies on ticket sales as one of its most significant revenue sources, Crouthamel said.

But the athletic department receives virtually no money from concessions, parking or other Carrier Dome amenities, Crouthamel said, because some of those services are contracted out.

Large private schools, like Syracuse and Miami, burn at least $8 to $10 million in scholarships, salaries and travel expenses, Crouthamel said.

"Now take that right off the top," he said. "You can't make it."



Two solutions

All of that, of course, is not to say athletic programs are poverty-stricken. Fat conference contracts help trump some expenses.

Aside from ticket sales, athletic departments rely heavily on two revenue sources from conference affiliations: television contracts, and, for six lucky conferences, lucrative affiliations with the Bowl Championship Series.

The Big East's future in both is questionable.

Its football television contract with ABC Sports and ESPN expires in 2007, but ABC has the right to renegotiate next season when Miami and Virginia Tech leave.

Men's basketball-wise, the Big East should be stable. The NCAA has an 11-year, $6 billion contract with CBS, and Miami and Virginia Tech's moves should not drastically affect the Big East's regional deal. But the football contract generates far more revenue.

The Big East will certainly lose television money, Crouthamel said, and even if the conference adds two football schools, the hit could be significant.

"You find out when you get back to the table with these people what the damage really is," Crouthamel said.

Big East schools can probably weather a watered-down football television contract, but only if the conference maintains its position in the BCS, a much more significant revenue source supplying about $16 million annually to the conference.

"If we find out we're in the BCS, we're going to make it," Crouthamel said.

But the Big East's position there is even more uncertain. The BCS agreement expires in 2005. After that, three things could happen: the BCS could continue with the Big East as a member, the BCS could continue without the Big East or the BCS could cease to exist.

"My opinion is if the BCS remains in existence, the Big East drops out," said professor Daniel Fulks, a Transylvania (Ky.) accounting professor who prepares the NCAA's revenues and expenses report.

In Indianapolis this summer, Fulks met with a major conference commissioner during a committee meeting. Casually, the commissioner mentioned five BCS conferences, even though there are currently six.

Fulks asked him, 'Aren't you jumping the gun? Or have you already eliminated the Big East?'"

The commissioner laughed.



Two philosophies

The Big East and ACC differ in how they distribute BCS and television revenues to their individual schools, and Miami left the Big East largely because of those differences.

Think of each conference's revenue as a pizza.

The ACC gives one slice to each school, regardless of performance. In 2001-02, each piece was reportedly worth $9.7 million.

The Big East, meanwhile, gives one smaller slice to each school, reportedly worth about $1.5 million to $2 million. But in the Big East, schools can earn toppings through performance incentives.

For instance, according to reports, Miami earns an extra $4 million for its BCS berth. Universities also gain incentives through national-television appearances and other bowl games.

"The incentive system rewards those who actually generate the money," Fulks said. "The even split is better for the have-nots. It's socialism at its finest, whereas the incentive system is more like capitalism.

"Do you want to reward those who actually generate the revenue? Or do you want to hand out to the poor?"

Even though the Big East system has rewarded Miami because of its strong football program - and even though the Big East offered Miami a reported five-year, $45 million deal to stay - President Donna Shalala and Athletics Director Paul Dee favored the long-term stability of the ACC's system.

"It wasn't the money, because frankly the Big East made a better financial offer over the next five years," Shalala told reporters in June. "It was a sense of the future."

The Big East's future may be a system closer to the ACC's. Though Crouthamel believes the Big East will keep incentives, it will lower the incentives and raise the base distributions.

In other words, there are fewer toppings, but each team starts with extra cheese.



Infinite possibilities

For Syracuse and the rest of the Big East, the only thing certain right now is uncertainty, and it's likely to last until the BCS and television contracts have been settled.

Should the Big East add two football-playing schools and remain in the BCS, Syracuse could operate without any noticeable changes, even if television revenues were stifled, Crouthamel said.

"It will be apparent budget-wise," Crouthamel said. "But it won't be apparent to you or anyone else."

If the Big East loses its BCS position, changes could be sweeping. The Big East could disintegrate, spawning an earthquake that would dramatically shake the college sports landscape. Or the Big East could operate as a virtual mid-major conference. Or it could fracture into two conferences, with the football schools separating themselves.

"I don't know where the Big East ends up," said Fulks, the professor who compiles the NCAA revenues and expenses report. "Who do you have? Boston College and Pittsburgh? That's not BCS material. The Big East should probably go away, and remaining members should align themselves with other conferences."

But Crouthamel has been steadfast in his desire to see the Big East rebuilt into a national power.

You laughed at him for that. A Big East without its top football schools? No chance, you said.

This time, Crouthamel disagreed.

"What you're saying is we're hanging on Virginia Tech and Miami's coattails," Crouthamel said. "Well, we don't have their coattails anymore. So let's the rest of us step up. That's what we're going to do. There's no alternative for us."


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 Post subject: Big East out of BCS?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:57 am 
Title 9 screws every college and profit programs why don't they see women love football and want it at every college. Stupid politics its getting worse everyday.


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 Post subject: Big East out of BCS?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:12 am 
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They should be! they are hoping for a ND and not going to get it. The commish and the university presidents keep pausing on this issue they will lose out big and end up a cusa or mwc. They will then join the non-bcs schools in a lawsuit. Without PSU, Miami and VA tech the Big east will cease to exist soon.


Also the game title 9 does screw alot of colleges, chicks dig football.

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 Post subject: Big East out of BCS?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:33 am 
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Cybercat, the message appeared on the NDNation.com message board yesterday afternoon.

Thanks FriarFan! :) OK, here is the original post: http://www.ndnation.com/boards/showpost.cgi?conference+11657. Note that this post uses the lyrics to a song titled "People Get Ready" to get their message across and the key lines are:

People get ready
For the train to Jordan
Picking up passengers
From At..... coast to coast


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 Post subject: Big East out of BCS?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:26 am 
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Have read the whole thread and its amazing what cryptic things people will speculate on. Interesting though that even these NotreDame folks, in several of these posts are indicating that even if ND joins the BE, they cannot trust the loyalty of any of the other schools in not jumping in the future, especially to the ACC, precisely the points we ourselves were developing in one of our other threads on the BE. They think their leaders should not commit themselves to any future in which any other school would have the possibility to hurt or damage Notre Dame.

The irony is that only full membership in Big10 or ACC would allow this. No relationship of any kind with the BE would ever assure this wish for conference security. There is no membership security in the BE, either now or in the future, until ACC and Big10 get to 12. If security is the primary motivation, a ND relationship with BE will always be partial and non-commital, waiting for the more sure thing. Down the road.

As I've suggested before, the healthiest thing for BE is to form a totally new football conference, totally without Notre Dame... No presidents seem to have the moxy....

:)

ps. Thanks cybercat, I read only the first posting of this thread yesterday, didn't "get" the cryptic reference, and ignored the rest, thinking it was a "folksong" discussion...but then a lot of urban myths are generated in song lyrics or playing songs backwards...(smile)...


Last edited by javaman on Thu Sep 18, 2003 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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