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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:50 pm 
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Most say BYU should be team #11 and I agree. They have a long tradition of excellence. Their religion shouldn't bother the Big XII so much. And it opens up new market territory for the conference.

I think UCF would be a better addition than Cincinnati:
1. Larger schools, more students, more eyes, more fan
2. Florida is a better recruiting ground than Ohio
3. Florida is a growing state whereas Ohio is less so
4. Florida is in SEC territory and a stronger conference to compete against than the B1G


Regarding distance, the ease of travel matters as much as distance
Orlando is easy to fly to, likely easier than Morgantown, Ames, lawrence, Manhattan Kansas, or Lubbock Texas


Divisions are zippered to even out travel as well as exposure:
West: BYU, Kansas State, Iowa State, Oklahoma, Texas Tech, and TCU
East: Baylor, Kansas, Oklahoma State, Central Florida, Texas, and West Virginia

These divisions also allow all teams equivalent exposure geographically to the heart of the Big XII: Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas. This arrangement will necessitate at least one annual protect rivalry across division, possibly two annual protect rivalries. Keeping a nine game conference schedule will mean 5 in-division games and 4 cross-division games (2 annual protected and the remaining 2 split among the remaining 4 cross division teams every other year).

Team: protected rival 1 & protect rival 2
Baylor: TCU & BYU
BYU: West Virginia & Baylor
Central Florida: Iowa State & Kansas State
Iowa State: Central Florida & Kansas
Kansas: Kansas State & Iowa State
Kansas State: Kansas & Central Florida
Oklahoma: Oklahoma State & Texas
Oklahoma State: Oklahoma & Texas Tech
Texas: Texas Tech & Oklahoma
TCU: Baylor & West Virginia
Texas Tech: Texas & Oklahoma State
West Virginia: BYU & TCU


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:23 pm 
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Huan wrote:
Most say BYU should be team #11 and I agree. They have a long tradition of excellence. Their religion shouldn't bother the Big XII so much. And it opens up new market territory for the conference.

I think UCF would be a better addition than Cincinnati:
1. Larger schools, more students, more eyes, more fan
2. Florida is a better recruiting ground than Ohio
3. Florida is a growing state whereas Ohio is less so
4. Florida is in SEC territory and a stronger conference to compete against than the B1G


Regarding distance, the ease of travel matters as much as distance
Orlando is easy to fly to, likely easier than Morgantown, Ames, lawrence, Manhattan Kansas, or Lubbock Texas


Divisions are zippered to even out travel as well as exposure:
West: BYU, Kansas State, Iowa State, Oklahoma, Texas Tech, and TCU
East: Baylor, Kansas, Oklahoma State, Central Florida, Texas, and West Virginia

These divisions also allow all teams equivalent exposure geographically to the heart of the Big XII: Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas. This arrangement will necessitate at least one annual protect rivalry across division, possibly two annual protect rivalries. Keeping a nine game conference schedule will mean 5 in-division games and 4 cross-division games (2 annual protected and the remaining 2 split among the remaining 4 cross division teams every other year).

Team: protected rival 1 & protect rival 2
Baylor: TCU & BYU
BYU: West Virginia & Baylor
Central Florida: Iowa State & Kansas State
Iowa State: Central Florida & Kansas
Kansas: Kansas State & Iowa State
Kansas State: Kansas & Central Florida
Oklahoma: Oklahoma State & Texas
Oklahoma State: Oklahoma & Texas Tech
Texas: Texas Tech & Oklahoma
TCU: Baylor & West Virginia
Texas Tech: Texas & Oklahoma State
West Virginia: BYU & TCU


That's a pretty solid first post.

Congratulations, and Welcome!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:58 pm 
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thanks for the welcome


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:36 pm 
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I feel like the value of basketball is so undervalued. When schools get bids, the conference gets richer. This chase for football revenue seems like such a waste at the expense of old rivalries, regionalism, and other sports, hoops included.

To me, I don't know what UCF really brings to the table over Cincy other than a state. All the more power to UCF in being loud and ever-present in inserting themselves in major conference consideration, but UCF's got one BCS bowl under their belt. Cincy's got two. UCF's got four NCAA tournament appearances...to Cincy's 27.

Did I miss it? When did UCF merit better consideration than someone like Cincinnati? Same question for USF. And I don't consider myself a Cincinnati fan. But if the Big XII must look east...I don't know how you overlook Cincinnati for someone who is very unproven in the directional FLs.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:05 pm 
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Other than UCF, Cincy and the overmentioned BYU....who is next in line to compare them to? Assuming there are two spots....we need to be looking at more then three schools for these spots, right?

Personally, I like Rice and Tulane. Their style fits with almost the whole conference. And both cities are high quality markets. The big drawback is that neither really helps with travel for WVU, but the conference could always add some travel money to WVU's yearly payout to offset the expenses and appease them.

I don't believe that the conference needs a huge footprint. I also am not certain that I believe that you have to have a conference mate from an area to recruit that area. So, while Rice and Tulane pale in comparison for student population to UCF and Cincy....they still bring some quality attributes that match TCU and Baylor evenly. Plus, AAU status that isn't matched by UCF and Cincy or TCU and Baylor.

I also believe that basketball is quite undervalued. It would be interesting to see the Big 12 add St. Louis and Wichita State or Belmont for Olympic sports only. Quality programs, quality schools, excellent markets(Wichita maybe not so much?). This wouldn't cost much in fb money...and it could give the Big12 some RPI help. Anyway...it's interesting to contemplate.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:25 pm 
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I also like Rice and Tulane
both AAU schools and somewhere along academic may matter to university presidents
but i see them as team #13 and #14 rather than #11 and #12

would also be interesting to see non football members like Wichita State and St Louis


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:10 pm 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
Religion isn't the problem. Religion is one thing, but "does not work well with others" is worse.


Just wondering here. The GoDaddy Bowl was this past Sunday night. Would BYU play in such as bowl at the given time, and whose named sponsor delivers commericals very suggestive of woman-to-woman action?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:56 pm 
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BYU would never play on a Sunday, regardless of the sponsor.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2014 12:56 pm 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
I feel like the value of basketball is so undervalued. When schools get bids, the conference gets richer. This chase for football revenue seems like such a waste at the expense of old rivalries, regionalism, and other sports, hoops included.

To me, I don't know what UCF really brings to the table over Cincy other than a state. All the more power to UCF in being loud and ever-present in inserting themselves in major conference consideration, but UCF's got one BCS bowl under their belt. Cincy's got two. UCF's got four NCAA tournament appearances...to Cincy's 27.

Did I miss it? When did UCF merit better consideration than someone like Cincinnati? Same question for USF. And I don't consider myself a Cincinnati fan. But if the Big XII must look east...I don't know how you overlook Cincinnati for someone who is very unproven in the directional FLs.

Cincy has 2 BCS bids and has been in a league that got automatic bids for how many years? UCF was in a league that got an automatic bid for one year, and they got that bid, and they won their bowl game. How did Cincy do in their two games? Cincy played their first football game in 1885, which is almost 100 years before UCF played their 1st game. Has Cincy had a chance to build up a good program, and just never done it?
I will not debate you on basketball, Cincy has a very good tradition there, and I'm not really sure UCF has 4 bids to the big dance. I know we haven't ever advanced beyond the first round. When UCF's basketball team comes off probation, then goes back on probation, look out when they get off probation that 2nd time.
That being said, Cincy doesn't need to check their rear view mirror for UCF, they need to check those side mirrors. The two programs are on more equal footing than a lot of people would be willing to admit.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:39 pm 
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The BIG 12 can add teams if they choose, there is nothing to prevent that and they have included language in their tv contracts to accomodate expansion.

On some of the more humorous points made in this thread that are often seen elsewhere on the internet--

The BIG 12 is not going to dissolve and the bylaws don't specify that 75% of the league can disband the league. That is a myth created by some who either want to see the league breakup and/or covet BIG 12 teams.

The league isn't going to break up and it has no reason to do so. Texas and Oklahoma are two of the highest paid schools in the nation as members of the BIG 12 and they aren't going to be richer going anywhere. They and the other members are in one of the top competitive leagues in the nation and that isn't going to change either. The BIG 12 schools have an ownership and partnership with the SEC for the Sugar Bowl that starts next season, and ownership/partnership with the Pac 12 in the Alamo Bowl that begins next season.

TV ratings aren't as strong as the Big Ten or SEC, but they weren't before either. They are better than the ACC and Pac 12. Regardless, BIG 12 tv contracts continue to grow throughout the contracts and aren't going to go down. Revenues from media rights--tier 1 and 2 with FOX and ESPN, and with each schools tier 3 rights are right at the top of major college athletics and will continue to increase along with other leagues through their contracts.

The league has GOR's embedded with its tv contracts and the Sugar Bowl deal. These aren't "easily breakable" legal contracts as some would have you believe--and every major league but the SEC has a GOR. If any of them attempted to break someone else's--guess what? Their own is now caput and they stand to lose teams themselves. Think that isn't possible? The ACC certainly thought it was when they rushed through a GOR, and the Big Ten's most recent expansion was in part due to fears of losing Penn State. No league is going to try and end GOR's, and since the BIG 12, Big Ten and Pac 12 are all on the same networks--no one could benefit from a league change there anyway. BIG 12 schools earn more in media rights than SEC schools--there is no lure there.

Each BIG 12 school also has the ability to market games for television in tier 3 deals. Texas has a 20 yr deal with ESPN that neither side is attempting to get rid of. But all the other BIG 12 schools also have tier three deals that are long term and bring in millions per school for football, basketball and other sports events that aren't tied to cable companies being able to force viewers to pay for a channel they aren't interested in--as the BTN and other networks do. In the future, the cable model could very well go more to an ala carte model, plus many are dropping cable as they tire of paying for channels they don't want.

WIth all the success of BIG 12 schools and their athletics, its not surprising others would covet BIG 12 schools to try and make their league more relevant, but there isn't any incentive for any BIG 12 schools to leave their own successful and stable league.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:09 pm 
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Buckaineer wrote:

WIth all the success of BIG 12 schools and their athletics, its not surprising others would covet BIG 12 schools to try and make their league more relevant, but there isn't any incentive for any BIG 12 schools to leave their own successful and stable league.


You delivered a thoughtful and realistic post. I certainly agree, the B12 has a positive near future, and am in the camp that it is not going to be picked apart anytime soon by other power leagues. On the direction TV cable may be going, I believe you nailed it.

Where I diverge, and it may be a matter of semantics, from your rationale is your very last sentance quoted above. Conferences (PAC12, BIG, SEC) that took former B12 schools were already 'relevant', so it's difficult to make the case these power conferences were less relevant than the B12. They were pursuing expanding their already huge markets with former B12 schools anxious to leave. And it should not be overlooked that some of the current B12 schools, including Texas and Oklahoma, pursued attempted deals with other conferences. If the GoR, which I concur on much of your analysis, was not in place, I would not dismiss certain schools in the B12 conference entertaining new offers from other power leagues.

I don't think the immediate question is whether or not the B12 gets further depleted. They won't for at least a long while. Whether or not the B12 expands back to 12 or so and renews a CCG is the more immediate question. All indicators so far is that potential intent is not embraced currently within the conference by the more powerful elements. Folks may argue if that stance may prove to be a mistake.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 1:10 pm 
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The Big XII is definitely fine as it is currently and for a while.
This is likely the major reason why there has been so little movement to expand to 12, or 14 (the Big XII owns the rights to the Big XIV currently).


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:38 pm 
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It's going to come down to content.

Even if the B1G can't find itself in football, its basketball is strong, and they are exploring what lacrosse and ice hockey can do on television. The SEC, on the verge of their network, I expect to excel with football, hoops, and baseball. The ACC has the potential to have the best 2013-14 season in revenue sports. The PAC is playing basketball again.

All the power to the Big XII if they think they're fine with ten. It's just that others are already seeing the benefit of 12 and beyond.

And I don't think it helps when WVU and TCU aren't making much of an impact in the revenue sports yet.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 3:07 pm 
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Buckaineer wrote:
The BIG 12 can add teams if they choose, there is nothing to prevent that and they have included language in their tv contracts to accomodate expansion.

On some of the more humorous points made in this thread that are often seen elsewhere on the internet--

The BIG 12 is not going to dissolve and the bylaws don't specify that 75% of the league can disband the league. That is a myth created by some who either want to see the league breakup and/or covet BIG 12 teams.

The league isn't going to break up and it has no reason to do so. Texas and Oklahoma are two of the highest paid schools in the nation as members of the BIG 12 and they aren't going to be richer going anywhere. They and the other members are in one of the top competitive leagues in the nation and that isn't going to change either. The BIG 12 schools have an ownership and partnership with the SEC for the Sugar Bowl that starts next season, and ownership/partnership with the Pac 12 in the Alamo Bowl that begins next season.

TV ratings aren't as strong as the Big Ten or SEC, but they weren't before either. They are better than the ACC and Pac 12. Regardless, BIG 12 tv contracts continue to grow throughout the contracts and aren't going to go down. Revenues from media rights--tier 1 and 2 with FOX and ESPN, and with each schools tier 3 rights are right at the top of major college athletics and will continue to increase along with other leagues through their contracts.

The league has GOR's embedded with its tv contracts and the Sugar Bowl deal. These aren't "easily breakable" legal contracts as some would have you believe--and every major league but the SEC has a GOR. If any of them attempted to break someone else's--guess what? Their own is now caput and they stand to lose teams themselves. Think that isn't possible? The ACC certainly thought it was when they rushed through a GOR, and the Big Ten's most recent expansion was in part due to fears of losing Penn State. No league is going to try and end GOR's, and since the BIG 12, Big Ten and Pac 12 are all on the same networks--no one could benefit from a league change there anyway. BIG 12 schools earn more in media rights than SEC schools--there is no lure there.

Each BIG 12 school also has the ability to market games for television in tier 3 deals. Texas has a 20 yr deal with ESPN that neither side is attempting to get rid of. But all the other BIG 12 schools also have tier three deals that are long term and bring in millions per school for football, basketball and other sports events that aren't tied to cable companies being able to force viewers to pay for a channel they aren't interested in--as the BTN and other networks do. In the future, the cable model could very well go more to an ala carte model, plus many are dropping cable as they tire of paying for channels they don't want.

WIth all the success of BIG 12 schools and their athletics, its not surprising others would covet BIG 12 schools to try and make their league more relevant, but there isn't any incentive for any BIG 12 schools to leave their own successful and stable league.

I agree with the tone of your post but your facts are incorrect.

The 75% is in the bylaws feel free to read them...
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1700&start=2670#p70528" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Bishin Cutter wrote:
Here is your Big XII GoR!

Commence speculation! :twisted:
tkalmus wrote:
Quote:
7. Term... At the end of the Term or upon other termination of this Agreement, the Rights granted by a Member Institution to the Conference hereunder shall automatically revert to such Member Institution.

So it can be terminated...likely if the conference is which we would need to see the bilaws to find out what that entails.
lew240z wrote:
tkalmus wrote:
Quote:
1.5.2 Actions Requiring the Vote of a Majority of Disinterested Directors and a Supermajority of Disinterested Directors...(b) The following actions may be taken only if approved by the affirmative vote of a Supermajority of Disinterested Directors (as defined below):...(2) The dissolution, liquidation, winding-up, merger, sale, or transfer of all or substantially all of the assets of the Conference;....(f) The term “Supermajority of Disinterested Directors” with respect to any issue shall mean seventy-five percent (75%) or more of all persons who are Disinterested Directors with respect to such issue, whether or not each is Present at a meeting considering such issue or signs a written consent with respect to such issue.


So they need 75% to dissolve it seems, meaning 8 out of 10
So something like UT/Tech/OU/OSU/KU/KSU to PAC12, WVU to ACC, and 1 more...
Iowa St to Big Ten? Baylor or TCU to SEC? Seems unlikely...

Oklahoma only makes 1-2 million more than the other schools in the Big 12, only Texas makes more in the Big 12 than they could in another conference.

The Big 12 was the worst conference in terms of TV ratings this year, worse than the PAC and ACC.
http://www.goodbullhunting.com/2013/12/ ... -final-sec" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, the GOR is tied to the TV deal, and I've seen many legal "outs" a school like Texas/OU could use to challange it in court (obviously with the support of a big 3 conference) however it would take lots of guts to do so...only true "out" other than some legal challenge would be to dissolve which I wrote about in the first point.

3rd tier deals...Texas get 15million a year, OU 3 million, KU 2 million and everyone else get between 800K-1.75mil. Compare that to the any major conference outside of the ACC and its not a good deal for anyone but Texas.

In summation, the ACC and Big 12 are in the running for last place, and while that will sit fine with the Baylors/Iowa State's of the world, its not for a school like OU. I also don't think its likely anything will happen soon...however come 2025 you better watch out.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:09 am 
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If/when the Big XII expands, it's going to answer the a question I've wondered for some time: to expand, does GoR terminate, pause, or reset? The way the rules sound, it seems they are paused/suspended or just terminated to make that sort of move. The ACC's reset themselves, but the Big XII's didn't seem to have that same language.

It's the sort of thing where one wonders if expansion were to even happen, would a suspension or termination of GoR allow for a school to just leave?


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