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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:54 pm 
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I can't say that I am keen on Loyola--they are in Baltimore and Georgetown probably already carries that market for the Big East. If the Big East is going to bring in an East Coast school to balance St Louis they must above all be able to carry a fairly substantial market--having a strong basketball tradition and being Catholic are certainly important as well. Realistically, the East Coast options are really Duquesne, Richmond, and maybe Siena.


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:54 pm 
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mozilla wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
Since Dayton is being talked about Let's say they get passed over and Richmond/St.Louis go to the BE.
Have made the NCAAs the last 5 years
UMass(will go this year)
VCU
Davidson
George Mason
La Salle
St.Joseph's
St.Bonaventure
Dayton

vs

Wichita St.
N.Iowa
Indiana St.
Drake

I don't see URI leaving that and I don't see Dayton leaving that for the MVC. Why would Dayton leave all those big east coast markets for a far smaller midwestern market conf.?


I agree with your conclusions....I just don't know that I believe Richmond is really on the BE list as high as others. While they are a great school...they aren't Catholic ...and I believe that might work against them. Loyola is almost the same size, in another major east coast market, and Catholic, which I believe makes them a better candidate for the BE.

To sum up that arguments...it looks like Dayton's only other option(if not A10 or BE) would be the Horizon League. Which pretty much means...they stay in the A10


I just used them b/c they are the next best private school if Dayton wasn't taken. If Dayton is 12 then Dayton to the MVC is moot. Even if they took VCU(I doubt they go public school) then put Richmond in VCU's spot on my list.

No way does Loyola get in the BE, DePaul already covers Chicago and Loyola is terrible on the court. Butler isn't catholic so need to be catholic is over blown

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:48 am 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
mozilla wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
Since Dayton is being talked about Let's say they get passed over and Richmond/St.Louis go to the BE.
Have made the NCAAs the last 5 years
UMass(will go this year)
VCU
Davidson
George Mason
La Salle
St.Joseph's
St.Bonaventure
Dayton

vs

Wichita St.
N.Iowa
Indiana St.
Drake

I don't see URI leaving that and I don't see Dayton leaving that for the MVC. Why would Dayton leave all those big east coast markets for a far smaller midwestern market conf.?


I agree with your conclusions....I just don't know that I believe Richmond is really on the BE list as high as others. While they are a great school...they aren't Catholic ...and I believe that might work against them. Loyola is almost the same size, in another major east coast market, and Catholic, which I believe makes them a better candidate for the BE.

To sum up that arguments...it looks like Dayton's only other option(if not A10 or BE) would be the Horizon League. Which pretty much means...they stay in the A10


I just used them b/c they are the next best private school if Dayton wasn't taken. If Dayton is 12 then Dayton to the MVC is moot. Even if they took VCU(I doubt they go public school) then put Richmond in VCU's spot on my list.

No way does Loyola get in the BE, DePaul already covers Chicago and Loyola is terrible on the court. Butler isn't catholic so need to be catholic is over blown


Sorry, I meant Loyola Md.

Good points, otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:07 pm 
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mozilla wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
mozilla wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
Since Dayton is being talked about Let's say they get passed over and Richmond/St.Louis go to the BE.
Have made the NCAAs the last 5 years
UMass(will go this year)
VCU
Davidson
George Mason
La Salle
St.Joseph's
St.Bonaventure
Dayton

vs

Wichita St.
N.Iowa
Indiana St.
Drake

I don't see URI leaving that and I don't see Dayton leaving that for the MVC. Why would Dayton leave all those big east coast markets for a far smaller midwestern market conf.?


I agree with your conclusions....I just don't know that I believe Richmond is really on the BE list as high as others. While they are a great school...they aren't Catholic ...and I believe that might work against them. Loyola is almost the same size, in another major east coast market, and Catholic, which I believe makes them a better candidate for the BE.

To sum up that arguments...it looks like Dayton's only other option(if not A10 or BE) would be the Horizon League. Which pretty much means...they stay in the A10


I just used them b/c they are the next best private school if Dayton wasn't taken. If Dayton is 12 then Dayton to the MVC is moot. Even if they took VCU(I doubt they go public school) then put Richmond in VCU's spot on my list.

No way does Loyola get in the BE, DePaul already covers Chicago and Loyola is terrible on the court. Butler isn't catholic so need to be catholic is over blown


Sorry, I meant Loyola Md.

Good points, otherwise.

Loyola(Md) is right there in Georgetown's market. Plus they've only been to the NCAA tourney 2 times 1994 & 2012 I believe.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 am 
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Loyola-MD is a good match for the Patriot. I doubt they budge.

It'll be interesting to see how schools view the Patriot as they ramp up scholarships. While they still have the academic index, were that to ever change, I wonder if they are able to take a few schools away from others for that "Ivy-lite" rub. Not that the A10 would really mourn Fordham walking away, but I think GWU could be persuaded depending on what other things happen to the A10 (the CAA thought they might have a shot at them). Davidson makes the academic cut, but the distance pretty much kills that one.


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 4:45 pm 
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Too bad Johns Hopkins is D-III, I'd like to see them in the Patriot

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:34 pm 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
Loyola(Md) is right there in Georgetown's market. Plus they've only been to the NCAA tourney 2 times 1994 & 2012 I believe.


Georgetown is a section on the west side of DC. DC and Baltimore are two completely different cities. I don't believe that Georgetown carries Baltimore just because they aren't too far apart. Even if there is some crossover in market...that really isn't uncommon. Especially, when there are multiple cities(Philly, DC, Richmond, Boston, Cincy) containing schools in many conferences.

So maybe, Loyola isn't the best candidate. They should still be on the list with their attributes. Who's to say what criteria the Big East is using to decide their candidates?

Also, I was wondering, if SLU and Dayton(or Rich/Duq) leave for the BE.....will that trigger any other A-10 schools to make their move at that time? Will that be the straw that broke the camels back for any schools?


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:33 am 
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mozilla wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
Loyola(Md) is right there in Georgetown's market. Plus they've only been to the NCAA tourney 2 times 1994 & 2012 I believe.


Georgetown is a section on the west side of DC. DC and Baltimore are two completely different cities. I don't believe that Georgetown carries Baltimore just because they aren't too far apart. Even if there is some crossover in market...that really isn't uncommon. Especially, when there are multiple cities(Philly, DC, Richmond, Boston, Cincy) containing schools in many conferences.

So maybe, Loyola isn't the best candidate. They should still be on the list with their attributes. Who's to say what criteria the Big East is using to decide their candidates?

Also, I was wondering, if SLU and Dayton(or Rich/Duq) leave for the BE.....will that trigger any other A-10 schools to make their move at that time? Will that be the straw that broke the camels back for any schools?

If you guys were counting Dayton and Xavier(Cincy) as the same market how is Balt and DC not the same?

what move? A10 is still far better than any other conference left for the rest them to choose. I posted how MVC doesn't even have A10 depth, or markets like the A10. Horizon is the farm league for the A10 & MVC. UMass being forced for all or nothing in the MAC can cause a move. Or Fordham falling back to the Patriot but most school don't tuck tail and head back to where they came from. Plus w/ all the moves the Fordham people probably think they can compete now.

Why does the list for the BE have to be deep? Here, pick 2 of SLU, Dayton, Richmond, VCU. Why compile a list for Big 12 candidates that include Texas St., UTSA, Arkansas St. when you have Cincinnati, UCF, BYU, even Houston, Memphis, Tulane.

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:22 am 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
mozilla wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
Loyola(Md) is right there in Georgetown's market. Plus they've only been to the NCAA tourney 2 times 1994 & 2012 I believe.


Georgetown is a section on the west side of DC. DC and Baltimore are two completely different cities. I don't believe that Georgetown carries Baltimore just because they aren't too far apart. Even if there is some crossover in market...that really isn't uncommon. Especially, when there are multiple cities(Philly, DC, Richmond, Boston, Cincy) containing schools in many conferences.

So maybe, Loyola isn't the best candidate. They should still be on the list with their attributes. Who's to say what criteria the Big East is using to decide their candidates?

Also, I was wondering, if SLU and Dayton(or Rich/Duq) leave for the BE.....will that trigger any other A-10 schools to make their move at that time? Will that be the straw that broke the camels back for any schools?

If you guys were counting Dayton and Xavier(Cincy) as the same market how is Balt and DC not the same?

what move? A10 is still far better than any other conference left for the rest them to choose. I posted how MVC doesn't even have A10 depth, or markets like the A10. Horizon is the farm league for the A10 & MVC. UMass being forced for all or nothing in the MAC can cause a move. Or Fordham falling back to the Patriot but most school don't tuck tail and head back to where they came from. Plus w/ all the moves the Fordham people probably think they can compete now.

Why does the list for the BE have to be deep? Here, pick 2 of SLU, Dayton, Richmond, VCU. Why compile a list for Big 12 candidates that include Texas St., UTSA, Arkansas St. when you have Cincinnati, UCF, BYU, even Houston, Memphis, Tulane.


I really don't understand your response.

Cincy and Xavier are in the Cincy market....not Dayton. LaSalle, Villanova, Drexell and St. Jo are in Philly. GW, George Mason, Maryland and Georgetown are in DC. Loyola, Towson and UMBC are in Baltimore.
DC and Baltimore are not the same city or the same market. Georgetown does not carry Baltimore because they are within an hour of each other.
But, even if they do cross-over....there are plenty of cities with more than one school...so, it shouldn't be that big a factor, regardless.

The MOVE.....
IF SLU and Dayton(or another big A-10 team) leave the A-10.....will that cause any school, such as Fordham, or anyone else to want to leave for the Patriot, MAC or better situation because the depth of the A10 isn't what it was a few years ago. ie...it wasn't the conference they signed up for. Which seems to be an important factor for schools...based on others comments from other threads. I didn't say that they would retreat to some little crappy conference where they came out of and slip into obscurity.

I have no idea why you are referring to the Big 12 or that situation.


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:50 am 
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Just in case the A-10 couldn't find any possible members for expansion within D-I (most recently having George Mason from the CAA, and Davidson from the SoCon), shouldn't it be also analyzing possible upgrade hopeful schools in D-II (based on their geographic footprint and success tenures)? For example, the A-10 could look up in the CCAA, PSAC, ECC, NE-10, GLIAC and GLVC?

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:02 am 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Just in case the A-10 couldn't find any possible members for expansion within D-I (most recently having George Mason from the CAA, and Davidson from the SoCon), shouldn't it be also analyzing possible upgrade hopeful schools in D-II (based on their geographic footprint and success tenures)? For example, the A-10 could look up in the CCAA, PSAC, ECC, NE-10, GLIAC and GLVC?


The A10 is one of the top two leagues in basketball...why do they want to shop the DII level for schools?
The A10 will attempt to grab the best DI schools when they go shopping.


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:07 am 
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mozilla wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Just in case the A-10 couldn't find any possible members for expansion within D-I (most recently having George Mason from the CAA, and Davidson from the SoCon), shouldn't it be also analyzing possible upgrade hopeful schools in D-II (based on their geographic footprint and success tenures)? For example, the A-10 could look up in the CCAA, PSAC, ECC, NE-10, GLIAC and GLVC?


The A10 is one of the top two leagues in basketball...why do they want to shop the DII level for schools?
The A10 will attempt to grab the best DI schools when they go shopping.


If you say so, then which "best" D-I conferences should the A-10 lurk at (besides the CAA and the SoCon)?

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:26 am 
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mozilla wrote:
Cincy and Xavier are in the Cincy market....not Dayton. LaSalle, Villanova, Drexell and St. Jo are in Philly. GW, George Mason, Maryland and Georgetown are in DC. Loyola, Towson and UMBC are in Baltimore.
DC and Baltimore are not the same city or the same market. Georgetown does not carry Baltimore because they are within an hour of each other.
But, even if they do cross-over....there are plenty of cities with more than one school...so, it shouldn't be that big a factor, regardless.


Dayton is its own market, but its small (#57) so its fans/alumni claim Cincy as their secondary market (like how San Antonio claims Austin when trying to list why they need a NFL team).

The Baltimore-Washington metropolitan area (#4) is the same market like Dallas is in the same market as Fort Worth.

The Big East want new markets that fit in the list below.
Omaha, Milwaukee, Chicago, Indianapolis, Cinncinati, Washington DC, Philadelphia, New York City X2 (1 is in NJ), and Providence.

Notice that that their are no duplicate states? And the only duplicate market is NYC (largest market in US, 4th worldwide) and even then they only have 1 school in each state NY/NJ.

This is the reason Dayton most likely won't be getting in, because besides being ridiculously close to Cincy, its also in the same state. If Dayton was closer to Cleveland they might have had a better chance.

Other Northern(ish) markets that could work would be:
St Louis, Kansas City, Minneapolis, Louisville, Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Richmond, Buffalo, Hartford, Boston

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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:57 am 
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tkalmus wrote:
mozilla wrote:
Cincy and Xavier are in the Cincy market....not Dayton. LaSalle, Villanova, Drexell and St. Jo are in Philly. GW, George Mason, Maryland and Georgetown are in DC. Loyola, Towson and UMBC are in Baltimore.
DC and Baltimore are not the same city or the same market. Georgetown does not carry Baltimore because they are within an hour of each other.
But, even if they do cross-over....there are plenty of cities with more than one school...so, it shouldn't be that big a factor, regardless.


Dayton is its own market, but its small (#57) so its fans/alumni claim Cincy as their secondary market (like how San Antonio claims Austin when trying to list why they need a NFL team).

The Baltimore-Washington metropolitan area (#4) is the same market like Dallas is in the same market as Fort Worth.

The Big East want new markets that fit in the list below.
Omaha, Milwaukee, Chicago, Indianapolis, Cinncinati, Washington DC, Philadelphia, New York City X2 (1 is in NJ), and Providence.

Notice that that their are no duplicate states? And the only duplicate market is NYC (largest market in US, 4th worldwide) and even then they only have 1 school in each state NY/NJ.

This is the reason Dayton most likely won't be getting in, because besides being ridiculously close to Cincy, its also in the same state. If Dayton was closer to Cleveland they might have had a better chance.

Other Northern(ish) markets that could work would be:
St Louis, Kansas City, Minneapolis, Louisville, Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Richmond, Buffalo, Hartford, Boston


Great points.

I believe the original discussion stemmed from the statement that Georgetown carries the Baltimore individual market. Which I don't believe to be true. If anything...Maryland carries the Baltimore market.
And to your point....Baltimore is in Maryland. Which has yet to be covered by the BE.

I do believe that the BE will want to grab SLU. No doubt that they would like the Saint Louis market. Even though SLU isn't really that close to other schools on that side of the conference....St Louis is considered a hub of the Midwest. So, no school will worry about traveling there, in my opinion.
I am having a hard time figuring out who will be the second school taken to go along with SLU, though. Dayton sure does look like a shoe in...but, then there is the market issues with Ohio(previously stated). So, then I think Duquesne and Pittsburg would be great. But, Duq hasn't been all that good, which the BE could either see as a plus or negative depending on what they are looking for(rpi increase or someone to beat up on). Then there are still schools like Boston, Holy Cross, Siena, Niagra, Canacius...and so on. Not to forget Detroit and then there's Richmond.
The choices are mind boggling.


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 Post subject: Re: A10 Realignment
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:28 am 
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mozilla wrote:
Great points.

I believe the original discussion stemmed from the statement that Georgetown carries the Baltimore individual market. Which I don't believe to be true. If anything...Maryland carries the Baltimore market.
And to your point....Baltimore is in Maryland. Which has yet to be covered by the BE.

I do believe that the BE will want to grab SLU. No doubt that they would like the Saint Louis market. Even though SLU isn't really that close to other schools on that side of the conference....St Louis is considered a hub of the Midwest. So, no school will worry about traveling there, in my opinion.
I am having a hard time figuring out who will be the second school taken to go along with SLU, though. Dayton sure does look like a shoe in...but, then there is the market issues with Ohio(previously stated). So, then I think Duquesne and Pittsburg would be great. But, Duq hasn't been all that good, which the BE could either see as a plus or negative depending on what they are looking for(rpi increase or someone to beat up on). Then there are still schools like Boston, Holy Cross, Siena, Niagra, Canacius...and so on. Not to forget Detroit and then there's Richmond.
The choices are mind boggling.

Maryland carries the entire Balt/DC area in football (along with WVU and VPI), but Georgetown carries the metro area (including Baltimore) better than any other school can, and that included Loyola.

For who after StLouis, just look at how the divisions line up once you add them in there.

West: Creighton, St Louis, Marquette, DePaul, Butler, Xavier

East: Georgetown, Villanova, Seton Hall, St John's, Providence

Unless its Dayton (which I don't think its likely) Xavier is in the West, meaning that the next school would likely be East of Ohio, which leaves us with these major market: Pittsburgh (Duquesne), Richmond (Richmond or VCU), Buffalo (no candidate), Hartford (Fairfield), Boston (Boston Unviersity)

Of that list the most likely candidate that fits the main criteria are Duquesne or Richmond, and I think Richmond has a leg up on an invite due to previously relationships with many of these schools, including playing football with Villanova and they have LAX (a good selling point).

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