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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:43 pm 
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BePcr07 wrote:
Sure basketball divisions are few and far between but what if the Big East did this:

Midwest Division:

Creighton
*Saint Louis
*Wichita St
DePaul
Marquette
Butler

East Division:

Xavier
Villanova
St. John's
Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall

I think most agree Saint Louis is on its way to the Big East and I can't honestly see how Wichita St would hurt the Big East (only concern is that they are a public school...in Kansas)


Great possibility, but I still go with St. Louis and Dayton:

Midwest Division:

Butler
Creighton
DePaul
Marquette
*Saint Louis
*Dayton

East Division:

Georgetown
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
Villanova
Xavier

A perfect 16-game schedule for conference play. Unless if it's 18-game, style, then each team must find two cross-divisional "primary partners" for home/away series basis.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:56 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Great possibility, but I still go with St. Louis and Dayton


I agree that Dayton fits better with the "theme" of the Big East (if you'd say there is one.)

My question is whether 2 teams in Ohio affect Dayton's chances of getting in the Big East? Does the Big East see this as an issue? Would they rather go with Wichita St, VCU, or Richmond for a new market? I'm not convinced the Big East really cares, but it's just a thought.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:06 pm 
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BePcr07 wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Great possibility, but I still go with St. Louis and Dayton


I agree that Dayton fits better with the "theme" of the Big East (if you'd say there is one.)

My question is whether 2 teams in Ohio affect Dayton's chances of getting in the Big East? Does the Big East see this as an issue? Would they rather go with Wichita St, VCU, or Richmond for a new market? I'm not convinced the Big East really cares, but it's just a thought.


Well BePrc, you have a point right there. However, this is only the inaugural season of the new Big East since the split of the old Big East. Only time will tell in a few years to come, especially with conference realignment to be involved as the factor.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:16 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
However, this is only the inaugural season of the new Big East since the split of the old Big East.


I think this is the key element to Big East expansion in the very near future. The original 7 Big East Catholic schools made a huge jump by adding 3 schools to their conference including new states of Ohio, Indiana, and Nebraska. With the way it looks, Missouri (Saint Louis) is practically in the Big East already. Their current setup with 10 schools and a clean 18-game, home/home round-robin with every other school in the conference is tough to beat. Granted more schools usually means more money, but they are definitely not in any rush to expand.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:27 pm 
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If they went to 16 then I'd like this...

West Division:

*Wichita St
Creighton
*Saint Louis
Marquette
DePaul
Butler
*Detroit
Xavier

East Division:

Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
*Duquesne
Villanova
Georgetown
*Richmond
*Davidson

but they are only going to 12. StL and Richmond (or VCU)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:39 pm 
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tkalmus wrote:
but they are only going to 12. StL and Richmond (or VCU)


I like Saint Louis and either Richmond or VCU but why not Wichita St or Dayton in your opinion?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:41 pm 
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BePcr07 wrote:
tkalmus wrote:
but they are only going to 12. StL and Richmond (or VCU)


I like Saint Louis and either Richmond or VCU but why not Wichita St or Dayton in your opinion?


Dayton is a duplicate market with Xavier, I think it their chances aren't great as the Big East is going to be really zeroed in on how to gain the most market share for future TV contracts.

Wichita St and VCU both have the same issue, they're public, but in addition to that...

Wichita St also has a tiny market (Wichita, Topeka, KC) which the Big East already has some share of with Creighton. An arguement could be made that Creighton, Wichita St, and StL could dominate that area but they'll never truely complete with Kansas & the Big 12, or for casual B1G/SEC fans.

VCU has another candidate in the same market that is just a better fit for the Big East in Richmond (private school w/ LAX and plays FCS football w/ Villanova).

But both of these schools are hot right now, and one could be persuaded to bring them on board and join non-secular Butler, in order to help tone down the "Catholic Conference" label that may turn away some casual non-Catholic fans. However, until they actively start talking about adding a public school, I'm going to assume they'll stay private with an obvious preference for Catholic schools in new markets.

That being said I think it'll be StL and Richmond because they know all the right people and are doing everything they can behind the scenes to grab those last two spots when they expand in a few years, VCU doesn't have the connection IMO, and though Dayton does, I don't see how they overcome the market arguement.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:06 pm 
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I agree about Dayton already being within the Xavier market. VCU is an option in my opinion, but not until a couple other schools are invited.

One thought I had, which may or may not be in consideration, is Connecticut. The AAC does not seem to mind having football-only membership (see Navy.) Connecticut has a history with many of the current Big East schools already. Their basketball is definitely a national brand.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:12 am 
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tkalmus wrote:
BePcr07 wrote:
tkalmus wrote:
but they are only going to 12. StL and Richmond (or VCU)


I like Saint Louis and either Richmond or VCU but why not Wichita St or Dayton in your opinion?


Dayton is a duplicate market with Xavier, I think it their chances aren't great as the Big East is going to be really zeroed in on how to gain the most market share for future TV contracts.

Wichita St and VCU both have the same issue, they're public, but in addition to that...

Wichita St also has a tiny market (Wichita, Topeka, KC) which the Big East already has some share of with Creighton. An arguement could be made that Creighton, Wichita St, and StL could dominate that area but they'll never truely complete with Kansas & the Big 12, or for casual B1G/SEC fans.

VCU has another candidate in the same market that is just a better fit for the Big East in Richmond (private school w/ LAX and plays FCS football w/ Villanova).

But both of these schools are hot right now, and one could be persuaded to bring them on board and join non-secular Butler, in order to help tone down the "Catholic Conference" label that may turn away some casual non-Catholic fans. However, until they actively start talking about adding a public school, I'm going to assume they'll stay private with an obvious preference for Catholic schools in new markets.

That being said I think it'll be StL and Richmond because they know all the right people and are doing everything they can behind the scenes to grab those last two spots when they expand in a few years, VCU doesn't have the connection IMO, and though Dayton does, I don't see how they overcome the market arguement.


Why aren't Boston U, Duquesne and Detroit being mentioned more then? They are all in quality markets, private and Catholic, right?
Or, do you believe that the BE is trying to tame down the Catholic angle to a degree with the next moves?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:06 pm 
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Looking at all 8 schools recently mentioned in men's basketball in the last 5 years:

Saint Louis - St. Louis, MO - Private, Catholic - Atlantic-10 (1 Conf Reg Season Champ, 1 Conf Tourney Champ, 2 NCAA Apps)
Richmond - Richmond, VA - Private, Nonsectarian, Atlantic-10 (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 1 Conf Tourney Champ, 2 NCAA Apps w/ 1 Sweet Sixteen)
VCU - Richmond, VA - Public - Atlantic-10 (1 Conf Reg Season Champ, 2 Conf Tourney Champ, 4 NCAA Apps w/ 1 Final Four)
Wichita St - Wichita, KS - Public - Missouri Valley (1 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 2 NCAA Apps w/ 1 Final Four)
Dayton - Dayton, OH - Private, Catholic - Atlantic-10 (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 1 NCAA App)
Boston U - Boston, MA - Private, Nonsectarian - Patriot League (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 1 NCAA App)
Duquesne - Pittsburgh, PA - Private, Catholic - Atlantic-10 (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 0 NCAA App)
Detroit - Detroit, MI - Private, Catholic - Horizon League (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 1 Conf Tourney Champ, 1 NCAA App)

From these statistics...

It's either VCU or Richmond since they share a city and VCU has a clear lead in recent history
Saint Louis and Wichita St basically share similar results, but Saint Louis does have the private-Catholic edge as well as a much larger market
Duquesne has the Pittsburgh market and the private-Catholic thing...but that's about it...
Boston U will never be Boston College and they have no champs with only 1 appearance as a member of the weaker Patriot League
Detroit brings a new market, is private-Catholic but only has 1 appearance
Dayton is private-Catholic BUT only has 1 app, has a smaller market, and shares the state with current member Xavier

In order for me...

Saint Louis
VCU or Richmond - not both (I would go with VCU)
Wichita St
Detroit
Dayton
Duquesne
Boston U


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:43 pm 
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BePcr07 wrote:
In order for me...

Saint Louis
VCU or Richmond - not both (I would go with VCU)
Wichita St
Detroit
Dayton
Duquesne
Boston U


Fine analysis, but just keep in mind that Richmond is private, while VCU is public, but many people think like you do.

Only time will tell us who is right.

I lean towards Richmond, not just because they are private but also because they football with Villanova, is starting LAX and has some history with more schools in the Big East+StL that they've rubbed elbows with over they years. But that's just my 2 cents.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:13 pm 
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BePcr07 wrote:
Looking at all 8 schools recently mentioned in men's basketball in the last 5 years:

Saint Louis - St. Louis, MO - Private, Catholic - Atlantic-10 (1 Conf Reg Season Champ, 1 Conf Tourney Champ, 2 NCAA Apps)
Richmond - Richmond, VA - Private, Nonsectarian, Atlantic-10 (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 1 Conf Tourney Champ, 2 NCAA Apps w/ 1 Sweet Sixteen)
VCU - Richmond, VA - Public - Atlantic-10 (1 Conf Reg Season Champ, 2 Conf Tourney Champ, 4 NCAA Apps w/ 1 Final Four)
Wichita St - Wichita, KS - Public - Missouri Valley (1 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 2 NCAA Apps w/ 1 Final Four)
Dayton - Dayton, OH - Private, Catholic - Atlantic-10 (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 1 NCAA App)
Boston U - Boston, MA - Private, Nonsectarian - Patriot League (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 1 NCAA App)
Duquesne - Pittsburgh, PA - Private, Catholic - Atlantic-10 (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 0 NCAA App)
Detroit - Detroit, MI - Private, Catholic - Horizon League (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 1 Conf Tourney Champ, 1 NCAA App)

From these statistics...

It's either VCU or Richmond since they share a city and VCU has a clear lead in recent history
Saint Louis and Wichita St basically share similar results, but Saint Louis does have the private-Catholic edge as well as a much larger market
Duquesne has the Pittsburgh market and the private-Catholic thing...but that's about it...
Boston U will never be Boston College and they have no champs with only 1 appearance as a member of the weaker Patriot League
Detroit brings a new market, is private-Catholic but only has 1 appearance
Dayton is private-Catholic BUT only has 1 app, has a smaller market, and shares the state with current member Xavier

In order for me...

Saint Louis
VCU or Richmond - not both (I would go with VCU)
Wichita St
Detroit
Dayton
Duquesne
Boston U


Nice breakdown. That info does help to see things more clearly. It also makes me wonder what the current lineup of the BE looks like in those regards. You feel like doing another one? :P


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:31 pm 
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mozilla wrote:
Nice breakdown. That info does help to see things more clearly. It also makes me wonder what the current lineup of the BE looks like in those regards. You feel like doing another one? :P


As per the request...

Current Big East members in men's basketball in the past 5 years...

Butler - Indianapolis, IN - Private, Nonsectarian - Horizon/A-10 (3 Conf Reg Season Champ, 2 Conf Tourney Champ, 4 NCAA Apps, 2 National Runner-up)
Creighton - Omaha, NE - Private, Catholic - Missouri Valley (2 Conf Reg Season Champ, 2 Conf Tourney Champ, 2 NCAA App)
DePaul - Chicago, IL - Private, Catholic - Big East (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 0 NCAA App)
Georgetown - Washington, DC - Private, Catholic - Big East (1 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 4 NCAA App)
Marquette - Milwaukee, WI - Private, Catholic - Big East (1 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 5 NCAA Apps, 1 Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16 - the year they went to the Elite 8 is not included in the number of Sweet 16 appearances)
Providence - Providence, RI - Private, Catholic - Big East (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 0 NCAA App)
St. John's - New York City, NY - Private, Catholic - Big East (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 1 NCAA App)
Seton Hall - South Orange, NJ (NYC Metro) - Private, Catholic - Big East (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 0 NCAA App)
Villanova - Villanova, PA (Philly Metro) - Private, Catholic - Big East (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 4 NCAA Apps, 1 Final Four)
Xavier - Cincinnati, OH - Private, Catholic - A-10 (3 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 4 NCAA Apps)

If I were to rank these programs according to these statistics...

Marquette
Butler
Xavier
Georgetown
Villanova
Creighton
St. John's
DePaul (three-way tie for last in stats, but Chicago trumps Providence and Seton Hall shares NYC with St. John's)
Providence (While Rhode Island is not very promising, Seton Hall shares NYC with St. John's)
Seton Hall

Honestly, without the former football-playing programs, the formerly-named Catholic-7 is not impressive (4 programs combine for 1 NCAA App in the last 5 years)

The 3 added programs to the Catholic-7 brought a ton to the Big East


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:21 pm 
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BePcr07 wrote:
mozilla wrote:
Nice breakdown. That info does help to see things more clearly. It also makes me wonder what the current lineup of the BE looks like in those regards. You feel like doing another one? :P


As per the request...

Current Big East members in men's basketball in the past 5 years...

Butler - Indianapolis, IN - Private, Nonsectarian - Horizon/A-10 (3 Conf Reg Season Champ, 2 Conf Tourney Champ, 4 NCAA Apps, 2 National Runner-up)Nice
Creighton - Omaha, NE - Private, Catholic - Missouri Valley (2 Conf Reg Season Champ, 2 Conf Tourney Champ, 2 NCAA App)Pretty Nice
DePaul - Chicago, IL - Private, Catholic - Big East (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 0 NCAA App)Surprising
Georgetown - Washington, DC - Private, Catholic - Big East (1 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 4 NCAA App)Not bad
Marquette - Milwaukee, WI - Private, Catholic - Big East (1 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 5 NCAA Apps, 1 Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16 - the year they went to the Elite 8 is not included in the number of Sweet 16 appearances)Nice
Providence - Providence, RI - Private, Catholic - Big East (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 0 NCAA App)Ouch
St. John's - New York City, NY - Private, Catholic - Big East (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 1 NCAA App)Surprising
Seton Hall - South Orange, NJ (NYC Metro) - Private, Catholic - Big East (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 0 NCAA App)Bad
Villanova - Villanova, PA (Philly Metro) - Private, Catholic - Big East (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 4 NCAA Apps, 1 Final Four)Nice
Xavier - Cincinnati, OH - Private, Catholic - A-10 (3 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 4 NCAA Apps)Nice

If I were to rank these programs according to these statistics...

Marquette
Butler
Xavier
Georgetown
Villanova
Creighton
St. John's
DePaul (three-way tie for last in stats, but Chicago trumps Providence and Seton Hall shares NYC with St. John's)
Providence (While Rhode Island is not very promising, Seton Hall shares NYC with St. John's)
Seton Hall

Honestly, without the former football-playing programs, the formerly-named Catholic-7 is not impressive (4 programs combine for 1 NCAA App in the last 5 years)

The 3 added programs to the Catholic-7 brought a ton to the Big East


Great job, thanks!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:17 am 
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mozilla wrote:
BePcr07 wrote:
mozilla wrote:
Nice breakdown. That info does help to see things more clearly. It also makes me wonder what the current lineup of the BE looks like in those regards. You feel like doing another one? :P


As per the request...

Current Big East members in men's basketball in the past 5 years...

Butler - Indianapolis, IN - Private, Nonsectarian - Horizon/A-10 (3 Conf Reg Season Champ, 2 Conf Tourney Champ, 4 NCAA Apps, 2 National Runner-up)Nice
Creighton - Omaha, NE - Private, Catholic - Missouri Valley (2 Conf Reg Season Champ, 2 Conf Tourney Champ, 2 NCAA App)Pretty Nice
DePaul - Chicago, IL - Private, Catholic - Big East (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 0 NCAA App)Surprising
Georgetown - Washington, DC - Private, Catholic - Big East (1 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 4 NCAA App)Not bad
Marquette - Milwaukee, WI - Private, Catholic - Big East (1 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 5 NCAA Apps, 1 Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16 - the year they went to the Elite 8 is not included in the number of Sweet 16 appearances)Nice
Providence - Providence, RI - Private, Catholic - Big East (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 0 NCAA App)Ouch
St. John's - New York City, NY - Private, Catholic - Big East (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 1 NCAA App)Surprising
Seton Hall - South Orange, NJ (NYC Metro) - Private, Catholic - Big East (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 0 NCAA App)Bad
Villanova - Villanova, PA (Philly Metro) - Private, Catholic - Big East (0 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 4 NCAA Apps, 1 Final Four)Nice
Xavier - Cincinnati, OH - Private, Catholic - A-10 (3 Conf Reg Season Champ, 0 Conf Tourney Champ, 4 NCAA Apps)Nice

If I were to rank these programs according to these statistics...

Marquette
Butler
Xavier
Georgetown
Villanova
Creighton
St. John's
DePaul (three-way tie for last in stats, but Chicago trumps Providence and Seton Hall shares NYC with St. John's)
Providence (While Rhode Island is not very promising, Seton Hall shares NYC with St. John's)
Seton Hall

Honestly, without the former football-playing programs, the formerly-named Catholic-7 is not impressive (4 programs combine for 1 NCAA App in the last 5 years)

The 3 added programs to the Catholic-7 brought a ton to the Big East


Great job, thanks!



Thanks again to BePcr07 for the timely info.

The records of St. Johns, DePaul, and Seton Hall are horrible. How do you feel that affects potential members of the BE? Do potential schools only have to be as good as the lowest members...to get the invite? Or, do potential schools need to be better than the lower BE members to get invited?
Because...obviously, it's alright with the BE to have members that haven't done squat in the last ten years(ie: a schools record isn't that important).


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