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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:39 am 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
Flamesmania wrote:
I have read this thread, pages 1 & 2 included, but I still stand by what I said. Just like everyone else on this board and this site, I'm giving my opinion. It's based on what I've read, heard, figured out, who I've talked to, etc. That's all. It's not any Horizon/future MVC colored glasses.

As we have seen, stranger things have happened in this world of expansion/realignment (Maryland, Rutgers to the B1G? West Virginia to the Big 12?).

The Big East could flat out surprise and take nobody at all! Not likely, but still a probability and since it is a probability, it's still an option.

The some guys either here or csn board, I can't remember, seem to think if MVC loses say Missouri St. to SBC that the MVC may double downon Chicago taking you.

csn board and maybe here too I called Rutgers and Maryland for 13/14 if they moved to 14 which they did. That really wasn't strange b/c others said the same. WVU ended up strange b/c they never took Louisville & Cincinnati to go w/ them, so yeah they look out of place now.

But good question, what is the strangest move? Tulane to AAC? tv market guys may have been on board w/ them. How about UMKC to the WAC?



I'd say the strangest moves are the clear downgrades. So yeah, have to think that UMKC downgrading to the WAC...a conference that was desperate for any D1 members (just so UMKc could compete) is the strangest move. And by strange I mean, weakest...in that they thought the Summit was too competitive for them. I mean come-on, we're talking about the Summit, not the ACC.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:15 am 
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Quinn wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
Flamesmania wrote:
I have read this thread, pages 1 & 2 included, but I still stand by what I said. Just like everyone else on this board and this site, I'm giving my opinion. It's based on what I've read, heard, figured out, who I've talked to, etc. That's all. It's not any Horizon/future MVC colored glasses.

As we have seen, stranger things have happened in this world of expansion/realignment (Maryland, Rutgers to the B1G? West Virginia to the Big 12?).

The Big East could flat out surprise and take nobody at all! Not likely, but still a probability and since it is a probability, it's still an option.

The some guys either here or csn board, I can't remember, seem to think if MVC loses say Missouri St. to SBC that the MVC may double downon Chicago taking you.

csn board and maybe here too I called Rutgers and Maryland for 13/14 if they moved to 14 which they did. That really wasn't strange b/c others said the same. WVU ended up strange b/c they never took Louisville & Cincinnati to go w/ them, so yeah they look out of place now.

But good question, what is the strangest move? Tulane to AAC? tv market guys may have been on board w/ them. How about UMKC to the WAC?



I'd say the strangest moves are the clear downgrades. So yeah, have to think that UMKC downgrading to the WAC...a conference that was desperate for any D1 members (just so UMKc could compete) is the strangest move. And by strange I mean, weakest...in that they thought the Summit was too competitive for them. I mean come-on, we're talking about the Summit, not the ACC.


And....they aren't doing well in the WAC, either. So maybe they are on the way to the....let's see....what's below the WAC? :?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:17 pm 
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mozilla wrote:
Quinn wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
Flamesmania wrote:
I have read this thread, pages 1 & 2 included, but I still stand by what I said. Just like everyone else on this board and this site, I'm giving my opinion. It's based on what I've read, heard, figured out, who I've talked to, etc. That's all. It's not any Horizon/future MVC colored glasses.

As we have seen, stranger things have happened in this world of expansion/realignment (Maryland, Rutgers to the B1G? West Virginia to the Big 12?).

The Big East could flat out surprise and take nobody at all! Not likely, but still a probability and since it is a probability, it's still an option.

The some guys either here or csn board, I can't remember, seem to think if MVC loses say Missouri St. to SBC that the MVC may double downon Chicago taking you.

csn board and maybe here too I called Rutgers and Maryland for 13/14 if they moved to 14 which they did. That really wasn't strange b/c others said the same. WVU ended up strange b/c they never took Louisville & Cincinnati to go w/ them, so yeah they look out of place now.

But good question, what is the strangest move? Tulane to AAC? tv market guys may have been on board w/ them. How about UMKC to the WAC?



I'd say the strangest moves are the clear downgrades. So yeah, have to think that UMKC downgrading to the WAC...a conference that was desperate for any D1 members (just so UMKc could compete) is the strangest move. And by strange I mean, weakest...in that they thought the Summit was too competitive for them. I mean come-on, we're talking about the Summit, not the ACC.


And....they aren't doing well in the WAC, either. So maybe they are on the way to the....let's see....what's below the WAC? :?

MIAA.....maybe, that's one of the better D-II conf. but is in UMKC's footprint.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:21 am 
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Actually heard of rumors that Kansas City is looking to get back into the Summit League. It may not happen next season, but could be the season after. That whole WAC/Summit thing is just crazy! There was also talk that one of the reasons Kansas City movedd to the WAC in addition to the WAC letting them host the WAC tourney for three years is that they may have a good chance of winning there. This would mean getting better recruits and if the winning is consistent, they can then show the MVC that they are a viable candidate for an invite.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:12 am 
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Flamesmania wrote:
Actually heard of rumors that Kansas City is looking to get back into the Summit League. It may not happen next season, but could be the season after. That whole WAC/Summit thing is just crazy! There was also talk that one of the reasons Kansas City movedd to the WAC in addition to the WAC letting them host the WAC tourney for three years is that they may have a good chance of winning there. This would mean getting better recruits and if the winning is consistent, they can then show the MVC that they are a viable candidate for an invite.


If UMKC is trying to look stable and improve their quality.....then flipping conferences every few years and still not winning doesn't really prove much. Makes them look worse as far as I can tell.

I feel UMKC should stay in the WAC until they have a streak of winning. Then look to move to the Summit. And if they win in the Summit for a long stretch....then, MAYBE, they could apply to the MVC.
But, until then....flipping and flopping doesn't make them look like anything but unstable.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:32 pm 
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mozilla wrote:
If UMKC is trying to look stable and improve their quality.....then flipping conferences every few years and still not winning doesn't really prove much. Makes them look worse as far as I can tell.


I'm inclined to agree, except, how do you recruit if you're in the WAC? "Hey, play with us in this frankenstein league of programs who don't have anywhere else to go and are out of here the moment something better comes along?" I mean, AQ is available to all but the independents (sorry, NJIT), but even if you're flip-flopping like UMKC, maybe you're better off dealing with the consequences of conference fishing than appearing to be stuck in the WAC? I mean, it at least shows a program is more serious about where they stand amongst others...

I wouldn't be surprised if UMKC's stock in the MVC went up. If one of that Missouri State-Wichita State duo is gone in a year or two, UMKC kind of becomes a geographical placeholder. Plus, depending on how Loyola chooses to tackle expansion, are eastern programs more scrutinized because they "encroach" on Loyola's "turf?" Part of me feels Loyola fought hard for MVC to get purposely ahead of UIC. I doubt they allow UIC to get to the same level so soon. So, maybe that's one "no" vote that favors UMKC?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:52 pm 
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The Bishin Cutter wrote:
mozilla wrote:
If UMKC is trying to look stable and improve their quality.....then flipping conferences every few years and still not winning doesn't really prove much. Makes them look worse as far as I can tell.


I'm inclined to agree, except, how do you recruit if you're in the WAC? "Hey, play with us in this frankenstein league of programs who don't have anywhere else to go and are out of here the moment something better comes along?" I mean, AQ is available to all but the independents (sorry, NJIT), but even if you're flip-flopping like UMKC, maybe you're better off dealing with the consequences of conference fishing than appearing to be stuck in the WAC? I mean, it at least shows a program is more serious about where they stand amongst others...

I wouldn't be surprised if UMKC's stock in the MVC went up. If one of that Missouri State-Wichita State duo is gone in a year or two, UMKC kind of becomes a geographical placeholder. Plus, depending on how Loyola chooses to tackle expansion, are eastern programs more scrutinized because they "encroach" on Loyola's "turf?" Part of me feels Loyola fought hard for MVC to get purposely ahead of UIC. I doubt they allow UIC to get to the same level so soon. So, maybe that's one "no" vote that favors UMKC?


You bring up a good point. I don't have any idea how the WAC members recruit. Tough situation.

To UMKC, fishing back in the same pond you denounced....well, I am not sure you can look good playing that sort of game, either way it turns out? Leaving the Summit might turn out to be a pretty bad move....if they can't put together some wins.

Agreed, UMKC might get some buzz if any of the other Missouri schools advance to a higher conference. But, there is still some DII schools that appear to be about on the same level as UMKC. Those schools are: Lindenwood, UM St Louis, C. Missouri, UM Rolla.
I could see any of these schools surpassing UMKC without too much work.

It's hard to foresee what will happen in the MVC. It seems that the private schools might run that conference...and who knows what is on their agenda?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:31 am 
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Those Shockers of Wichita State are something for sure, as of winning the MVC men's basketball conference tournament title yesterday. I still think that they should be no. 1 in the nation. But so far, it's all favored to Florida, who will eventually compete in the SEC tournament, now that Wichita State gets some rest and bonus practice for their preparations to the NCAA national tournament.

Anyways, on a conference realignment perspective, does anyone believe that Wichita State would get a conference invite soon (i.e.: new Big East, MW, AAC)? And who will be the Shockers' replacement?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:18 am 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Those Shockers of Wichita State are something for sure, as of winning the MVC men's basketball conference tournament title yesterday. I still think that they should be no. 1 in the nation. But so far, it's all favored to Florida, who will eventually compete in the SEC tournament, now that Wichita State gets some rest and bonus practice for their preparations to the NCAA national tournament.

Anyways, on a conference realignment perspective, does anyone believe that Wichita State would get a conference invite soon (i.e.: new Big East, MW, AAC)? And who will be the Shockers' replacement?


I don't think the MWC or the AAC are looking to expand right now. But if they were the MWC would want a team in the West to off set Hawaii while keeping the divisions the same, and the ACC would want one in the East to offset Navy for the same reason.

Their best hope is the Big East but I think StL has that Eastern bid just about wrapped up so they would most likely have to expand to 14 for the Shockers to get in.

Just about a year ago the Big East's expansion list was just about set in stone with StL, Dayton, VCU, Richmond, and Duquesne, but Wichita State has defenately secured a spot on it.

Still I don't find it likely that Wichita State goes anywhere, so they should probably try to make the MVC work for them and at least expand to 12 with Valpo, Belmont, Morehead St, Detroit, Wiscon-GB, Oral Roberts, and even possibiliy make a play for Dayton/StL (though it is unlikely).

The Big East will always be the elite bball conference, but the MVC could at least try to rival the A10 for the #2 spot and basically become the A10 of the midwest.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:08 am 
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I don't know if anyone takes a non-fb member at that level. I mean, this is kind of like VCU out east. Good program...can't justify the invite. Plus, I have to imagine it going over about as well as a fart in church. Programs like Charlotte, Old Dominion, and South Alabama...there's a wave of schools who fielded football because they saw the writing on the wall for them if they didn't have it. Those were hoops schools. I mean, maybe both Wichita and VCU thread that needle and do what other former non-fb programs failed to do, but I think it won't go over very well.

More than anything, I think the Missouri Valley is held at gunpoint by two factors: Missouri State and the Big East. If Missouri State leaves, it creates a rift with WSU...maybe even enough for them to beg for the A10. What happens with the Big East and how it handles expansion, should St. Louis find themselves out, again, I don't know if maybe SLU has a conversation with the MVC, or really pushes the A10 to build a bridge out to them, and, again, maybe extend past them for WSU. Not good for the Horizon or MVC either way.

To me, I hope the Big East dies a slow and painful death. No, make that quick but still painful. If they would just get over football and patch things up with UConn, it's the best fit. Easily. From there, they need to get over the public school thing, because VCU and Wichita State are the best programs available to them that push the footprint and add depth to the conference. If they can't get over that, then it's time to slap the hands of members like Villanova, Georgetown, and Xavier, because the schools who "bring it" in A10 basketball? It's St. Joe's, George Washington, and Dayton. I'm so sick of this conference and what it's done to football and basketball east, and now west of the Mississippi. It's basically screwing up everything, including great conferences like the MVC and A10.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:13 am 
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I'd be OK if the Big East settled on their identity being he Catholic BB Conference.

They aren't going to disappear after getting that juicy TV contract from Fox.

I'd like to see them take St. Louis and Dayton, which would free up the A-10 become an eastern seaboard conference.

The problem is that both schools fit naturally in a western division and that would be 7 western teams and 5 eastern teams.
Perhaps the solution is no divisions (that might require a 22-game double round robin or an unbalanced schedule in BB), or
split up Xavier and Dayton, and let Xavier choose since they have more seniority in the conference.

These Catholic schools (the midwest cluster,and the eastern former Big East cluster) are traditional rivals.

Wichita State is the hot team right now, but they are 2 years away from losing their star players and the coach who
runs this program. What's happened to Butler, since their coach left for the NBA Celtics ?

Wichita State belongs in the MVC. I don't see them going anywhere.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 1:29 pm 
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It's not like Wichita State is Winthrop, though. WSU's had other coaches lead them to the tournament. At Winthrop, WSU's coach's former employer, they had one bid before him, and the guy after him got there with Marshall's kids.

Butler actually fits the Big East...a program who's best days were before they ever joined the conference. Butler plays in basketball mecca, and Stevens totally didn't put that program on the map.

From other places, it sounds like the Missouri Valley has had some directional issues as a conference. There were opportunities there for them to have schools like Dayton, Butler, Xavier, and others, but couldn't put it together because of internal issues. St. Louis was a school they actually have gone after, but SLU never wanted to be a part of it to that extent.

I think Wichita State sees the pipeline, with its share of Summit, Horizon, OVC, and potential Southland candidates and it wants to see the door, especially since others might be making trips of their own.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:34 pm 
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No doubt Wichita State want the Big East or A10 but the odds on a Big East invite are slim and A10's Eastern wing is almost dead.

So other than getting the conference upgrade, the Shockers have 3 options.

1: Make the MVC a better conference.

Wichita State simply needs the MVC to expand to 12 now and establish divisions to help improve he perception of their "weak" conference and make it clear that the MVC's #1 long term goal should be to land Dayton/StL (assuming not in BE).

2: Create a brand new conference for mostly non-fb (w/ ones that won't ever go FBS) schools which will help their conference focus almost soley on basketball.

Obviously the Big East gets 1st pick, but they can let the A10 have the East and the WCC the West still a quality conference could be formed in the Midwest 10-16 with the following...
Wichita St, Dayton, StL, Loyola, Valpo, Detroit, MoreheadSt, Belmont, OralRoberts, Drake, Bradley, Evansville, Wisc-GB, Cleveland St, UALR, UMKC

They'd take a hit losing some quality school like Missouri State, but the overall health/longevity of the conference would be excellent.

3. Start football with the goal of forming a new all member football conference in FCS (typically schools with more emphasis on athletics in general) or with the goal of joining FBS and the MAC.

Pretty much explains itsself.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:10 pm 
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I don't know where Wichita State could go besides the Atlantic 10.

The Big East is all private schools; with Saint Louis (market size) their next candidate, and then a variety of schools with pros and cons behind them. If the Big East goes for a public school it would likely be VCU, not Wichita State, because Saint Louis is a bigger market.

The A-10 could very easily capitalize on the Big East's private status by extending them the offer if someone leaves the A-10 for the Big East.

If the Big East invites SLU/Richmond (private schools, one west, one east); the A-10 could invite Wichita State and Belmont for 14 schools, solidifying their western flank.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:05 pm 
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Wichita State could go to the American, but I don't see the American willing to go (back to) the hybrid route. Even then VCU gives them a better market.


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