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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:00 pm 
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mozilla wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
mozilla wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
The Summit needs to pursue North Dakota, Northern Colorado, and UMKC. North Dakota and Northern Colorado would give them 6 football schools and they could take over administration of the MVFC. Northern Colorado also means a travel partner for Denver. I think the Summit could really sell the grizzlies on a rivalry with the Pioneers and decreased travel expenses as the Summit League schools are closer than the more geographically spread out Big Sky and the Summit's geography is suited to traveling partners. UMKC brings back a major market right at the geographic center of the conference and rumor has it they are regretting the WAC move (and the WAC is very much at risk of being raided)

If UMKC isn't interested then pursue Eastern Illinois (brings a football program) or get into conversations with Chicago St--if UMKC hears that Chicago St might get the last spot it could coax them to jump.



Instead of UMKC, who has sucked, how about Lindenwood(St Louis area), C. Oklahoma(OKC area), C. Missouri(near KC), Mankato State, Minnesota St. Cloud, Wayne State(Detroit) or someone like that. All those schools play fb....and with fb, they would add much more than UMKC? And almost all are in or very near major metropolitan areas.


If you could get all of these schools to move up, it would be a better idea than trying to pry schools away, especially MVFC schools. The MVC can always just add 2 Summit schools w/ football and make it a conference spot, thus killing Summit fb.



Well, I meant to grab one of them. But, if they grabbed a handful and started their own conference....that would be pretty cool too.

So, what kind of miracle would have to occur to get the correct number to ensure fb in the Summit? Do I remember that 8 is the minimum to start a fb league?


6 for FCS. They just can't mess w/ the MVC b/c the MVC has the power to squash that idea. It won't happen b/c I can't see all those schools moving up and MVC could just take any 2 of NDSU, SDSU, USD, WIU as a full member to kill the Summit threat.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:57 am 
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mozilla wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
mozilla wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
The Summit needs to pursue North Dakota, Northern Colorado, and UMKC. North Dakota and Northern Colorado would give them 6 football schools and they could take over administration of the MVFC. Northern Colorado also means a travel partner for Denver. I think the Summit could really sell the grizzlies on a rivalry with the Pioneers and decreased travel expenses as the Summit League schools are closer than the more geographically spread out Big Sky and the Summit's geography is suited to traveling partners. UMKC brings back a major market right at the geographic center of the conference and rumor has it they are regretting the WAC move (and the WAC is very much at risk of being raided)

If UMKC isn't interested then pursue Eastern Illinois (brings a football program) or get into conversations with Chicago St--if UMKC hears that Chicago St might get the last spot it could coax them to jump.



Instead of UMKC, who has sucked, how about Lindenwood(St Louis area), C. Oklahoma(OKC area), C. Missouri(near KC), Mankato State, Minnesota St. Cloud, Wayne State(Detroit) or someone like that. All those schools play fb....and with fb, they would add much more than UMKC? And almost all are in or very near major metropolitan areas.


If you could get all of these schools to move up, it would be a better idea than trying to pry schools away, especially MVFC schools. The MVC can always just add 2 Summit schools w/ football and make it a conference spot, thus killing Summit fb.



Well, I meant to grab one of them. But, if they grabbed a handful and started their own conference....that would be pretty cool too.

So, what kind of miracle would have to occur to get the correct number to ensure fb in the Summit? Do I remember that 8 is the minimum to start a fb league?


I would agree with Muskie on the part of trying to lure North Dakota and Northern Colorado in the Summit. With that, and breaking apart from the MVC fb schools of the MVFC, then the Summit would have football as a sponsored sport. But that's not all. The Summit does need a certain number of schools that should be moved up (like Lindenwood, Central Oklahoma, Central Missouri, Mankato State, St. Cloud State, Wayne State, Grand Valley State, among others who have success within the conference's footprint. The same should be applied for the MVC when it comes to sponsor football as a conference sport.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:39 pm 
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I'm not so sure that the MVC would have the will power to launch a counter-attack on the Summit to keep them from gaining a controlling stake in the MVFC. You would have to get some of the 4 private, non-football schools and/or Wichita St on board with that decision and adding members to the MVC would dilute the money that the MVC is bringing in for Creighton and Wichita St's tournament success.

I also wouldn't mind seeing a couple of the DII schools in Minnesota joining the Summit--perhaps if/when the Indiana schools depart.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:56 pm 
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fighting muskie wrote:
I'm not so sure that the MVC would have the will power to launch a counter-attack on the Summit to keep them from gaining a controlling stake in the MVFC. You would have to get some of the 4 private, non-football schools and/or Wichita St on board with that decision and adding members to the MVC would dilute the money that the MVC is bringing in for Creighton and Wichita St's tournament success.

I also wouldn't mind seeing a couple of the DII schools in Minnesota joining the Summit--perhaps if/when the Indiana schools depart.


On the case of the MVC, how about brining Butler, Valpo, and Dayton to the MVC as football-only members from the PFL, while having already-full member Drake joining alongside (who also plays PFL football)? All of these four are currently playing non-scholarship football.

On the case of the Summit, how about having Eastern Illinois re-joining the Summit to revive their in-state rivalry with Western Illinois, and having Youngstown St. as a football-only member?

The landscape of results would look like this:

Summit fb.: Northern Colorado, North Dakota, North Dakota St., South Dakota, South Dakota St., Western Illinois; Eastern Illinois, Youngstown St. (fb-only)
MVC fb: Illinois St., Indiana St., Missouri St., Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois; Drake; Butler (fb-only), Valpo (fb-only), Dayton (fb-only)

But come to the thought of the D-II Minnesota schools jumping in, then the perspective would be different, if/when those Indiana schools withdraw.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:17 pm 
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fighting muskie wrote:
I'm not so sure that the MVC would have the will power to launch a counter-attack on the Summit to keep them from gaining a controlling stake in the MVFC. You would have to get some of the 4 private, non-football schools and/or Wichita St on board with that decision and adding members to the MVC would dilute the money that the MVC is bringing in for Creighton and Wichita St's tournament success.

I also wouldn't mind seeing a couple of the DII schools in Minnesota joining the Summit--perhaps if/when the Indiana schools depart.


This is an old argument, that we've talked about and quinn in further detail on why MVC will not let the Summit start. I'm telling you MVC would have the go ahead to add 2 MVFC schools as full member to kill the Summit idea. And according the the UND guys they don't want to be NDSU's tag along and prefer their western conf. I wonder though if MVFC came calling, would they turn down a Summit/MVFC invite.

MVC should look at the Big South and A-Sun who were similar regional confs. but then the BSC added football and they pulled who they wanted from the A-Sun can't afford to lose anyone now or else risk AQ, BSC is doing the ASun a favor right now just taking KSU for fb only, they could take them as a full member when ever they want if they want. MVC will never let the Summit that's beneath them, get the upper hand where you'd see a shift allowing all the MVC members w/ fb shift to the Summit.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:23 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
fighting muskie wrote:
I'm not so sure that the MVC would have the will power to launch a counter-attack on the Summit to keep them from gaining a controlling stake in the MVFC. You would have to get some of the 4 private, non-football schools and/or Wichita St on board with that decision and adding members to the MVC would dilute the money that the MVC is bringing in for Creighton and Wichita St's tournament success.

I also wouldn't mind seeing a couple of the DII schools in Minnesota joining the Summit--perhaps if/when the Indiana schools depart.


On the case of the MVC, how about brining Butler, Valpo, and Dayton to the MVC as football-only members from the PFL, while having already-full member Drake joining alongside (who also plays PFL football)? All of these four are currently playing non-scholarship football.

On the case of the Summit, how about having Eastern Illinois re-joining the Summit to revive their in-state rivalry with Western Illinois, and having Youngstown St. as a football-only member?

The landscape of results would look like this:

Summit fb.: Northern Colorado, North Dakota, North Dakota St., South Dakota, South Dakota St., Western Illinois; Eastern Illinois, Youngstown St. (fb-only)
MVC fb: Illinois St., Indiana St., Missouri St., Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois; Drake; Butler (fb-only), Valpo (fb-only), Dayton (fb-only)

But come to the thought of the D-II Minnesota schools jumping in, then the perspective would be different, if/when those Indiana schools withdraw.

You can't have a fb conf w/ 4 non scholly teams and 5 63 scholly teams. No way would the 5 schools settle for that they'd be w/ the schools they're currently with. It's like saying Michigan, Ohio St., Iowa, Michigan St., Youngstown St., Indiana St., N.Iowa, Illinois St. make a new conf. while the rest of the big 10 takes texas, oklahoma, oklahoma st.

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Last edited by Fresno St. Alum on Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:28 pm 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
You can't have a fb conf w/ 4 non scholly teams and 5 63 scholly teams. No way would the 5 schools settle for that they'd be w/ the schools they're currently with. It's like saying Michigan, Ohio St., Iowa, Michigan St., Youngstown St., Indiana St., N.Iowa, Illinois St. while the rest of the big 10 takes texas, oklahoma, oklahoma st.


You do have a logic point. It would be impossible for the MVC to organize like this. But what about my Summit fb. perspective?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:39 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
You can't have a fb conf w/ 4 non scholly teams and 5 63 scholly teams. No way would the 5 schools settle for that they'd be w/ the schools they're currently with. It's like saying Michigan, Ohio St., Iowa, Michigan St., Youngstown St., Indiana St., N.Iowa, Illinois St. while the rest of the big 10 takes texas, oklahoma, oklahoma st.


You do have a logic point. It would be impossible for the MVC to organize like this. But what about my Summit fb. perspective?


Sure it looks good, we could make a conf w/ 5 caa schools and 5 socon schools and it would look good too, it doesn't make it any closer to becoming reality. The Summit has had this "option" since they got the GWC football schools, yet they haven't done it. NDSU and SDSU could join the Big Sky too if the Summit tried to force them to join their version of the exact same conf. they're in now.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:49 pm 
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Fresno St. Alum wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
Fresno St. Alum wrote:
You can't have a fb conf w/ 4 non scholly teams and 5 63 scholly teams. No way would the 5 schools settle for that they'd be w/ the schools they're currently with. It's like saying Michigan, Ohio St., Iowa, Michigan St., Youngstown St., Indiana St., N.Iowa, Illinois St. while the rest of the big 10 takes texas, oklahoma, oklahoma st.


You do have a logic point. It would be impossible for the MVC to organize like this. But what about my Summit fb. perspective?


Sure it looks good, we could make a conf w/ 5 caa schools and 5 socon schools and it would look good too, it doesn't make it any closer to becoming reality. The Summit has had this "option" since they got the GWC football schools, yet they haven't done it. NDSU and SDSU could join the Big Sky too if the Summit tried to force them to join their version of the exact same conf. they're in now.


I think it would be better if some of the Dakota schools would join the Big Sky, leaving the leftovers for the MVC to absorb the MVFC and re-instate as a conference sport (making Western Illinois and Youngstown St. as fb-affiliates, which fits the MVC footprint).

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 10:22 am 
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I have to imagine that Denver is happy with ORU making their way back to the Summit League. ORU is a good school and seems to be similar in thought to UD.

With that in mind....If you were Denver....how would you want the Summit to proceed? Expansion or not? If expansion would benefit Denver...who would they want added to the Summit(someone close, someone far, someone high quality)?
What would be the best number for the Summit to settle at..10, 12, higher, lower?

Or maybe, UD is just stalling for a better opportunity(UD/Seattle U get called over to Big West or WCC)...so, they really don't care what happens in the Summit??

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 11:47 am 
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mozilla wrote:
I have to imagine that Denver is happy with ORU making their way back to the Summit League. ORU is a good school and seems to be similar in thought to UD.

With that in mind....If you were Denver....how would you want the Summit to proceed? Expansion or not? If expansion would benefit Denver...who would they want added to the Summit(someone close, someone far, someone high quality)?
What would be the best number for the Summit to settle at..10, 12, higher, lower?

Or maybe, UD is just stalling for a better opportunity(UD/Seattle U get called over to Big West or WCC)...so, they really don't care what happens in the Summit??

Thanks!


If so, then so be it. However, UD must prove something as well if they (as a Western-based school) can achieve success inside a Midwest conference such as the Summit (i.e.: former member Southern Utah).

If I was Denver, I have no idea at this moment, unless trying to have some sports to achieve moderate success. Whether if it's expansion or not, I would have North Dakota joining alongside in the Summit. But the key number for the Summit should be 12 (with at least 8 that has fb).

If things aren't going well, I think schools like Denver & Seattle should be in geographic conferences such as the WCC or in the Big West.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:02 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
mozilla wrote:
I have to imagine that Denver is happy with ORU making their way back to the Summit League. ORU is a good school and seems to be similar in thought to UD.

With that in mind....If you were Denver....how would you want the Summit to proceed? Expansion or not? If expansion would benefit Denver...who would they want added to the Summit(someone close, someone far, someone high quality)?
What would be the best number for the Summit to settle at..10, 12, higher, lower?

Or maybe, UD is just stalling for a better opportunity(UD/Seattle U get called over to Big West or WCC)...so, they really don't care what happens in the Summit??

Thanks!


If so, then so be it. However, UD must prove something as well if they (as a Western-based school) can achieve success inside a Midwest conference such as the Summit (i.e.: former member Southern Utah).

If I was Denver, I have no idea at this moment, unless trying to have some sports to achieve moderate success. Whether if it's expansion or not, I would have North Dakota joining alongside in the Summit. But the key number for the Summit should be 12 (with at least 8 that has fb).

If things aren't going well, I think schools like Denver & Seattle should be in geographic conferences such as the WCC or in the Big West.


So you are saying....
Denver would want a large group of fb schools....with the first being North Dakota....followed by two or three more fb schools?

I don't know if I follow why Denver would want that kind of set up??


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 12:17 pm 
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mozilla wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
mozilla wrote:
I have to imagine that Denver is happy with ORU making their way back to the Summit League. ORU is a good school and seems to be similar in thought to UD.

With that in mind....If you were Denver....how would you want the Summit to proceed? Expansion or not? If expansion would benefit Denver...who would they want added to the Summit(someone close, someone far, someone high quality)?
What would be the best number for the Summit to settle at..10, 12, higher, lower?

Or maybe, UD is just stalling for a better opportunity(UD/Seattle U get called over to Big West or WCC)...so, they really don't care what happens in the Summit??

Thanks!


If so, then so be it. However, UD must prove something as well if they (as a Western-based school) can achieve success inside a Midwest conference such as the Summit (i.e.: former member Southern Utah).

If I was Denver, I have no idea at this moment, unless trying to have some sports to achieve moderate success. Whether if it's expansion or not, I would have North Dakota joining alongside in the Summit. But the key number for the Summit should be 12 (with at least 8 that has fb).

If things aren't going well, I think schools like Denver & Seattle should be in geographic conferences such as the WCC or in the Big West.


So you are saying....
Denver would want a large group of fb schools....with the first being North Dakota....followed by two or three more fb schools?

I don't know if I follow why Denver would want that kind of set up??


You can say that. Plus, if Denver decides to, they should add football and try develop it because there's an off-campus facility within Invesco Field. Other than that, the Summit needs some fb-playing all-sports schools in order for the league to sponsor that sport with at least 8 members.

But on the other side of things, why would Denver join the Summit in the first place? Shouldn't they have stayed in the WAC?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 6:37 pm 
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ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
mozilla wrote:
ncaanopaawaa2000 wrote:
mozilla wrote:


But on the other side of things, why would Denver join the Summit in the first place? Shouldn't they have stayed in the WAC?



The Summit League is a conference on the rise having ranked anywhere from #13 to #15 last year in men's basketball in the various computer ranking systems.

North Dakota is a logical addition but perhaps have no place for their football program to go as the MVFC is probably full at this point. Also there is bad blood between UND and some in the conference.

Tom Douple, the commissioner of The Summit has publicly stated that the Summit could go to 14 tomorrow if they wanted to but instead the conference is looking for the "right fit." (My guess is that he was referring to a number of schools that are currently in the WAC.)

I think the four schools with football, SDSU, USD, NDSU and Western Illinois are comfortable with their football teams in the Missouri Valley Football Conference. '

All that said and with no inside information, my list of universities with the possibility of mutual interest in addition to North Dakota, are as follows. A travel partner for Denver like Northern Colorado which has the same issue with football as UND. A travel partner for Oral Roberts like Arkansas Little Rock, Several possibilities in the eastern footprint of the Summit League to balance the geography such as Eastern Illinois a former member but the same football issue exists, Southern Illinois-Edwardsville, Northern Kentucky, or even Belmont (would be a move up in basketball).

I expect to see and addition or two in time for the 15-16 season.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:41 am 
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Rabbit74 wrote:
The Summit League is a conference on the rise having ranked anywhere from #13 to #15 out of 31 conferences last year in men's basketball in the various computer ranking systems.

North Dakota is a logical addition but perhaps have no place for their football program to go as the MVFC is probably full at this point. Also there is bad blood between UND and some in the conference.

Tom Douple, the commissioner of The Summit has recenty stated that the Summit could go to 14 teams tomorrow if it desired to but instead was going to look for the right fit not just numbers. (I am guessing that we has referring to most of the schools in the WAC as the teams that would join if given a chance, Chicago State, UT-RGO, Utah Valley State, UMKC and depending on what happens eventually with Sunbelt, maybe even NMSU).

Here is my list (with no inside information) of teams where there might be some mutual interest and some of the issues/advantages.

North Dakota - natural fit geographically and historically with the other Dakota schools but perhaps no place for football to go as the MVFC is probably full and I think the four schools that currently have football, SDSU, USD, NDSU, and Western Illinois, are happy in the MVFC.

Northern Colorado- good travel partner for Denver, same football issue as UND

Arkansas-Little Rock= good travel partner for Oral Roberts, no football issue

Eastern Illinois - brings some east/west balance to the conference, good travel partner for Western Illinois, same football problem as mentioned above.

Other Possibilities, Ohio Valley schools in the eastern footprint all of whom do not sponsor football.

Southern Illinois Edwardsville
Northern Kentucky
Belmont

I expect to see an addition in time for the 15-16 season.


Welcome aboard Rabbit74. We're glad that you're here in the CollegeSportsInfo forums. About your response, I guess you took some time to re-analyze about this topic and decided to express your thoughts about it. Nothing personal, since this is an open forum for us fans to express our opinions, analysis and suggestions about conference alignment stuff within every league, here is what I can understand:

Wow! About 14 seems a huge goal. If I was the Summit commish, I would go proposing with at least 12 as the right number; and within that number, the expansion candidates would be based on the geographic footprint (within the Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas and possibly Colorado). And if the conference wanted to, it should add football, but also depending if most of those candidates sponsor that sport or not. But in order for the Summit to sponsor football, the Summit schools (NDSU, SDSU, USD, WIU) For what I understand is that the Summit is mostly an Upper Midwest-based conference. I would send the Indiana schools (IUPUI & IPFW) to the Horizon League, and to replace them would be what I'm about to state with your candidates list:

North Dakota
Northern Colorado
Eastern Illinois (former member)

With those additions (despite their current issues), it could let the Summit to sponsor football with at least 7 members (the FCS minimum, comparing to the 8-team FBS minimum counterpart). In the process, the MVFC would split, possibly forcing the MVC to sponsor football with most of their members (Illinois St., Indiana St., Southern Illinois, Missouri St., Northern Iowa), plus adding already full member in Drake from non-scholarship, with an associate member in either Valparaiso or Butler or Youngstown St.

For the non-football schools in the Summit, UALR, SIUE, NKU & Belmont seem ok.

Anyways, anything can happen when it comes to conference realigment. Maybe the 2015-16 season might be an impact of a factor for the conference.

By the way, thanks for sharing your thoughts about this expansion realignment discussion.

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